Why the Fables of the Seven Don't Tell About Others?

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

It is a curious position to take - that the humans are evil because they killed the elves and goblins.  The proof of this horrible crime is that the elves and goblins are hard to find these days, except when they creep up from their hidden caverns to kidnap children.   And of course, COTF legends are based on real world folklore.

I don’t know which series this is, but definitely not ASOIAF.

[Gilbert Green]

45 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I don’t know which series this is, but definitely not ASOIAF.

Most of the elements of British folklore concerning elves/goblins have been adapted to ASOIAF

- Associated with prehistoric flint instruments, adapted in ASOIAF to obsidian implements

- Believed to haunt giant's graves.

- Believed to haunt caverns under hills.

- Believed to have magical powers.

- Believed to interbreed with humans.

[sweetsunray]

Regarding the OP about the Seven and the historical "hero" Hugor of the Hill: while I disagree that the Seven = Others, I do tend to agree that the tales about Hugor the Hill make him more like a  Bloodstone Emperor, Night's King or Euron Greyjoy figure. None of them were one historical character imo, because there never was just one threat like the Others, not one corpse queen. There were various such "sorceress mother/monsters" that evolved differently because of environment and experience. Case in world building point: Yeen of Sothoryos. We get the mention of spotted spiders and brindled ghouls (wights of dead brindled men) around the abandoned Yeen. Last time anyone tried to settle there was Princess Nymeria with her Rhoynar, but everyone of her people there vanished. It should be quite clear that there are no Others of some type of ice roaming Sothoryos. So, at the very least it indicates there are two similar but differently evolved threats on two different contintents.

With the Bloodstone Emperor we get a character similar to the Night's King, except he wed a tiger woman, and the Bloodstone Emperor is tied to the Long Night, whereas the Night's King lived a few centuries after the Long Night after the Wall was built as protection against the Others. So, two "Night's King" villains in two regions at two different eras. The "tiger woman" is a singular reference, but it brings Leng of the 10000 tigers to mind. Leng too has some old structure where humans are sacrificed and anyone who ventures inside the structure either never comes out or escapes having turned mad. There is no mention of spiders for either Leng or Yi Ti, but I suspect the tiger woman to be a striped sorceress spiderwoman.

With Euron we have a man having visions of becoming king on the Iron Throne while drinking shade-of-the-evening a lot, a drink that was used to lure unsuspecting wanderers into the House of the Undying to get their fortune told, but actually end up as either a fresh heart or food for the corrupted Undying Ones. Euron has loads of Night's King elements in his arc, but they are all tied to shade-of-the-evening. And since Qarth is the last surviving city of the Qaathi and the ruins of another Qaathi city just north of Qarth, Qolahn, was dubbed City of Spiders by the Dothraki, we have yet another spider-hivemind-sorcery power. Add the history of the enmity between black-red fiery themed Sarnori ousting the Qaathi out of the grasslands and that being an echo of an eternal feud between the acolytes of a spider goddess and serpent god at (yet another) lost city of Lyber of the grasslands. And we get a vague picture of some spider sorceress who relocated from the grasslands to Qarth, but only survived the times in spirit and blue drink, rather than a physical entity, and nearly caught Dany to nip the rise of a new fire serpent enemy in the bud. And I believe we should not underestimate this magical entity just because her ghouls (the Undying Ones) and human heart burned in the HotU. Imo the drink shade-of-the-evening is her means of primary survival. Hence, I dub her Shade. I believe Shade is fooling and using Euron in a similar way the corpse queen once used the Night's King: smuggle her beyond warded walls (the Hightower in Shade-Euron's case) to set up a new fortune telling shop/trap in an international port.

Anyway, both with Euron, the Bloodstone Emperor and the Night's King we encounter similar promises of grandiosity to the villain via sorcery, a relocating or smuggling of a sorceress queen figure to a new region, new continent, beyond a barrier (the sea or wall) and sacrifice. The different details about these sorceress queens supports the idea they may be of similar origin/nature but different in evolution and timing. They are and were different similar threats both in time and space, hence different villains with similar roles and delusions of grandiosity, and various local uniting heroes who halted, defeated or killed their specific threat before, during or (long) after the Long Night, in Essos on both sides of the Bones and Westeros.

The Bloodstone Emperor allegedly started the Church of Starry Wisdom. The Others and the wights have eyes blue like stars. Euron is sailing for Oldtown with its Starry sept. Leng, K'Dath, Cult of Starry Wisdom and Sarnath (ruined capital of the former Sarnori kingdom) are direct references to Lovecraft. Excepting Sarnath, all those references revolve around crazy-making Outer (deep space alien) gods.

The tales of Hugor of the Hill has similar elements. He took to wife a woman with deep blue eyes, who was so fertile she bore him 44 "sons". His crown comes from the stars who promised him and his descendants a great kingdom in another land: so stars, one very fertile wife, motivation to relocate in order to become king of the world. Once Hugor's descendants landed in Westeros they tried to destroy the people and races that were a threat to beings like the Others and their mother the corpse queen, and managed to bind the Citadel to their fake beliefs, in order to rewrite history and knowledge. And they also oppose firebreathing dragons and people riding dragons (mortal enemies of the spider godesses). Maybe the woman with deep blue eyes was a "sister" to the corpse queen, or a "daughter", "niece", "cousin". If these spider sorceresses can birth warriors such as Others (or similar), they can birth "daughters" too (new hiveminds), who in time may become rivals over the same domain. Which seems to me where the Hukko legend enters imo. He slew swan maidens who lured people to their death into the velvet hills as a sacrifice to the Seven. And it's odd that Hugor is said to have been of the Hill. It's also possible that Hukko is a lie to recast the villain Hugor not as an ally to a spider sorceress, but as a hero after Hugor's "wife" (and her daughters) were defeated. Andals certainly have a penchant for distorting history, fake news, rebranding themselves as heroes living in times when they weren't even present, and projection, so do the Qartheen (claiming to be the most civilised while harboring a man-eating cult of ghoulish sorcerers), citizens of K'Dath, ...

So, imo Hugor of the Hill is like a Night's King, and his wife like the corpse queen, but they are not the same. Both perished and the later Andals who built a religion around the memory of these two fled the dragons of Old Valyria to land in Westeros and inevitably end up aiding the corpse queen and Others by slaying the libraries (weirwoods) and races with knowledge how to defeat her and the Others and finally alter the written histories to deny the very real threat.

 

[BlackLightning]

20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Corvo is, if I believe correctly, of the opinion that the Faith is a fake religion. I am of the opinion that the Seven are aliens.

I am of the opinion that both you and @Corvo the Crow are correct. Sort of.

The Seven are aliens who came to Planetos and became figures that the Andals continued to worship after said aliens died or returned home to perish. As it stands, they have no real sort of power over any thing on Planetos.

For everyone else who is reading this...yes, it sounds a lot more tinfoily and ridiculous than it actually is when you think about it.

The thing is how would a bombshell like this would be revealed in the story?

Because I'm already of the belief that the Others themselves are aliens, that the Andals worshipped them and that the Others became the Seven in the eyes of the Andals

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

As it stands, they have no real sort of power over any thing on Planetos.

I think some of Catelyn's prayers in ACoK are actually answered though.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

the Others became the Seven in the eyes of the Andals

I'm not sure. I think the Others could be aliens but I don't know whether the Seven are the same as them. There is a line about a man not being able to be harmed by Wights if he is armoured in his faith. It would make sense that the Seven, if they are Others, wouldn't attack their worshippers but I don't know. It is also possible that they are the same species of alien but had a disagreement of some sort.

[Corvo the Crow]

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not sure. I think the Others could be aliens but I don't know whether the Seven are the same as them. There is a line about a man not being able to be harmed by Wights if he is armoured in his faith. It would make sense that the Seven, if they are Others, wouldn't attack their worshippers but I don't know. It is also possible that they are the same species of alien but had a disagreement of some sort.

Oh my Old Gods! Craster is a GODLY MAN, he is armored in faith.

Quote

 

Mormont leaned forward. "Every village we have passed has been abandoned. Yours are the first living faces we've seen since we left the Wall. The people are gone . . . whether dead, fled, or taken, I could not say. The animals as well. Nothing is left. And earlier, we found the bodies of two of Ben Stark's rangers only a few leagues from the Wall. They were pale and cold, with black hands and black feet and wounds that did not bleed. Yet when we took them back to Castle Black they rose in the night and killed. One slew Ser Jaremy Rykker and the other came for me, which tells me that they remember some of what they knew when they lived, but there was no human mercy left in them."

The woman's mouth hung open, a wet pink cave, but Craster only gave a snort. "We've had no such troubles here . . . and I'll thank you not to tell such evil tales under my roof. I'm a godly man, and the gods keep me safe. If wights come walking, I'll know how to send them back to their graves. Though I could use me a sharp new axe." He sent his wife scurrying with a slap on her leg and a shout of "More beer, and be quick about it."

"No trouble from the dead," Jarmen Buckwell said, "but what of the living, my lord? What of your king?"

 

 

[Ser Lepus]

The Faith of the Seven was founded in Essos thousands of years after the end of the Long Night, so its founders had no experience with the Others (the Long Night happened when the Old Empire of Ghis was still forming, while the Faith of the Seven was created by the Andals long after the Valyrian had conquered the Ghiscarian Empire and they were expanding westwards). They may have known some legends about some Azor Ahai/Hyrkoon the Hero/Yin Tar/Neferion/Eldric Shadowchaser figure ending the Age of Darkness, but it wasn't relevent enough to their culture and to their lives to include them in their new religion.

Also, it is very likely that even the Faith's oldest holy text, The Seven-pointed Star was written in Westeros long after the migration. The book claims that Hugor Hill traveled to Westeros chasing the promise of a great kingdom, but historical research says that the Andals left Essos in flight of Valyrian conquest. It seems to me like the Faith included the prophecy retroactively to justify why they left Essos without mentioning how the Valyrians kicked their asses...

So, if the Faith didn't include the relatively recent Valyrian conquest in their holy texts, why would they include the way more remote, way less relevant to their culture Long Night, whose legend they may not even remember anymore?

As for the Faith being "real" or not... I don't think any religion in universe is fully "real". The Old Gods exist, but they aren't real gods, just the memory of dead greenseers, and they may not exist anymore. Blood and Fire magic exist, but that doesn't mean R'hllor is real; people who don't worship R'hllor are able to use magic too. The Others exist, the Long Night most likely happened, and the Night King may exist in the books too, but that doesn't mean the Great Other exists... the Others and the Night King were just a mistake of the Children of the Forest, not some eternal cosmic force....etc.

[sweetsunray]

7 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

As for the Faith being "real" or not... I don't think any religion in universe is fully "real". The Old Gods exist, but they aren't real gods, just the memory of dead greenseers, and they may not exist anymore. Blood and Fire magic exist, but that doesn't mean R'hllor is real; people who don't worship R'hllor are able to use magic too. The Others exist, the Long Night most likely happened, and the Night King may exist in the books too, but that doesn't mean the Great Other exists... the Others and the Night King were just a mistake of the Children of the Forest, not some eternal cosmic force....etc.

Yes, the Others, the dragons and greenseers are the "real gods", but they are mostly special entities that make use of magic, and then are taken to be gods. Of course if they can communicate over time and space as spirits that is as close to godhood as you can get

Spoiler

Damphair's vision in The Forsaken makes clear what are fake gods: they all end up impaled. Bakkalon, the Seven, Drowned God, Rh'llor, etc...

 

[Gilbert Green]

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Regarding the OP about the Seven and the historical "hero" Hugor of the Hill: while I disagree that the Seven = Others, I do tend to agree that the tales about Hugor the Hill make him more like a  Bloodstone Emperor, Night's King or Euron Greyjoy figure.

Hugor of the Hill is a character from the Seven Pointed Star.  I see nothing particularly sinister about him, based on the little we know.

That's not to say necessarily that Hugor never did anything wrong.  The biblical Kings of Israel are probably the analogy that GRRM has in mind.  And they certainly did plenty of wrong things.  King David, King Saul, King Solomon; etc.

Except that Hugor is such a larger-than-life figure that even the Biblical Kings are probably too historical.  We should perhaps go back further to find analogies like Noah and Adam.

The only sinister element of his story that we are aware of is that of the killing of the swan maidens -- a tale that is not from the Seven Pointed Star, and is not even necessarily about the same person.  There is no reason to suppose it reflects the values and attitudes of the Faith of the Seven (in Westeros) as distinct from the values and attitudes of Pentoshi singers (and I don't even know if these singers belong to the Faith of the Seven).

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

None of them were one historical character imo, because there never was just one threat like the Others, not one corpse queen.

If these are fictional characters, then that is all the more reason we should not confuse Hugor and Huzzo.  The songs of Pentoshi singers are not canonical texts in the Faith of the Seven.

The Pentoshi story almost seems hostile.  It is as if they were saying:  okay, so these fairy gals were murdering people and killing them was justified; but nonetheless Huzzo killed them for bad reasons, not good ones.  Or maybe these Pentoshi singers are not of the Faith of the Seven, and are therefore okay with human sacrifice.

In Westeros, at least, the Faith of the Seven appears to be not-so-loosely modeled on Medieval Christianity, which did not even practice animal sacrifice; though the ancient Jews had done so.  Similarly, we see no reference to even animal sacrifice in the Faith of the Seven.

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

There were various such "sorceress mother/monsters" that evolved differently because of environment and experience.

There is no Sorceress/Mother/Monster in the Hugor story, that we know of.  Just a mother.  More analogous to Eve than to Lilith.

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Case in world building point: Yeen of Sothoryos. We get the mention of spotted spiders and brindled ghouls (wights of dead brindled men) around the abandoned Yeen. Last time anyone tried to settle there was Princess Nymeria with her Rhoynar, but everyone of her people there vanished. It should be quite clear that there are no Others of some type of ice roaming Sothoryos. So, at the very least it indicates there are two similar but differently evolved threats on two different contintents.

Brindled ghouls are presumably a reference to a hyena or hyena-like creature.   Rather like the ghouls referenced in Islamic holy texts, who were fond of stealing dates.  Spotted hyenas don't just dig up corpses -- they are also fond of fruit.

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

With the Bloodstone Emperor we get a character similar to the Night's King, except he wed a tiger woman, and the Bloodstone Emperor is tied to the Long Night

This a Lovecraft reference.  The bloodstone he worshiped is a reference to the shining trapezohedron from Lovecraft's story "The Haunter of the Dark."

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The "tiger woman" is a singular reference, but it brings Leng of the 10000 tigers to mind. Leng too has some old structure where humans are sacrificed and anyone who ventures inside the structure either never comes out or escapes having turned mad.

Leng is another Lovecraft reference, though Lovecraft does not have anything closely analogous to tiger-women that I recall. 

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The Bloodstone Emperor allegedly started the Church of Starry Wisdom.

A Lovecraft reference. 

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Euron is sailing for Oldtown with its Starry sept.

LOL.  No he isn't.

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Leng, K'Dath, Cult of Starry Wisdom and Sarnath (ruined capital of the former Sarnori kingdom) are direct references to Lovecraft.

Yes.  Also Ib.

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Excepting Sarnath, all those references revolve around crazy-making Outer (deep space alien) gods.

Sarnath is also concerned with aliens, in that it was destroyed by the People of Ib. 

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So, imo Hugor of the Hill is like a Night's King, and his wife like the corpse queen, but they are not the same.

Huge stretch, IMHO.  My guess is Hugor is more like Adam; and his wife is more like Eve.

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Brindled ghouls are presumably a reference to a hyena or hyena-like creature.   Rather like the ghouls referenced in Islamic holy texts, who were fond of stealing dates.  Spotted hyenas don't just dig up corpses -- they are also fond of fruit.

The word ghoul is only used for two locations: north of the Wall and Yeen. And it are entities that feast on their dead. In the north it is used alongside or as alternative for wights. It doesn't matter how Islamic holy texts use the word. It's not how George uses it.

The humanoid species at Sothoryos are brindled men. Such men are featured as fighting in Daznak's pit in aDwD

Spoiler

and one such brindled man is fighting in Selmy's sortie at Meereen against the Yunkai

So, brindled ghouls I translate to a type of wighted brindled men.

7 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Sarnath is also concerned with aliens, in that it was destroyed by the People of Ib. 

That's why I clarified Outer gods. But yes, The doom of Sarnath also involves aliens.

7 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Huge stretch, IMHO.  My guess is Hugor is more like Adam; and his wife is more like Eve.

Just looking at the bigger picture against other such tales, considering that The Warrior's Sons wear rainbow swords on their shields, and mirroring armor, and hairshirts (hair on the inside, skin on the outside) and spiky crystals on their helms. The Others carry irridescent ice-crystal swords and mirroring armor, and are hairy ice spiders on the inside Spiky crystals on the head in George's stories since the 70s are hivemind antennae or devices to amplify psionic /telepathic abilities.

The Warrior's Sons are a pun on Hugor's 44 sons.

I truly recommend checking out a collection of George's writing from his teenhood onwards. He regularly incorporates zealots and christian like religions. I'll let you in on something: they're never good guys. Most often they are self entitled misguided arrogant genocidal scripture fanatics who attempt to paint a horror of their own past as something righteous.

So, no, I don't think George means Hugor or his wife to be Adam and Eve.

[sifth]

Aren't the Seven a relatively new religion? Maybe they simply don't believe.

[Craving Peaches]

19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Spiky crystals on the head in George's stories since the 70s are hivemind antennae or devices to amplify psionic /telepathic abilities.

Could this have anything to do with how the Warrior's Sons were rumoured to be sorcerers?

[sweetsunray]

36 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Could this have anything to do with how the Warrior's Sons were rumoured to be sorcerers?

In the case of the Warrior's Sons (and the Others) it means - receivers. The spikes help to receive the orders of the hivemind better.

Remember that the 5 Watchers moved in unison as if a signal was sent, when they joined the 1st to butcher Waymar Royce?

Not so incidentally, we learn "who" gave the signal in the scene of Kevan Lannister's murder in aDwD's epilogue. Our asexual spider orders his spy children (watchers) to appear from hiding, surround Kevan (who is so ice cold it hurts to breathe) and kill him off with their daggers.

And when Kevan enters the yard after leavin Cersei, before he enters Pycelle's tower, Kevan sees cold distant stars, considers his surroundings alien, and an icicle the size of a spear drops and lands at his feet (reference to Bran seeing spears at Heart of Winter).

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Spiky crystals on the head in George's stories since the 70s are hivemind antennae or devices to amplify psionic /telepathic abilities.

 

Didn't the High Sodomite Septon wear a crystal crown?

[sweetsunray]

19 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Didn't the High Sodomite Septon wear a crystal crown?

Yes, in the shape of a pyramid.

Think of the pyramids of Seven Times Never Kill a Man here.

[Corvo the Crow]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes.

I’ve always thought it as a phallic symbol showing he’s the chief among those boy diddlers called septons, now it makes even more sense, the head sodomite is getting his orders from his “gods” through that antenna.

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I’ve always thought it as a phallic symbol showing he’s the chief among those boy diddlers called septons, now it makes even more sense, the head sodomite is getting his orders from his “gods” through that antenna.

Truly, read up on the short story Seven Times Never Kill a Man by George. You can read a transcript with commentary here: https://fattestleechoficeandfire.com/2020/04/21/and-seven-times-never-kill-man-asoiaf-book-club/

To me the High Septon is like the Proctor of the Steel Angels in that story. Notice too in that story that the native Jainshi being genocided by the Steel Angels have a pelt - hairy men.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

20 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Truly, read up on the short story Seven Times Never Kill a Man by George. You can read a transcript with commentary here: https://fattestleechoficeandfire.com/2020/04/21/and-seven-times-never-kill-man-asoiaf-book-club/

To me the High Septon is like the Proctor of the Steel Angels in that story. Notice too in that story that the native Jainshi being genocided by the Steel Angels have a pelt - hairy men.

I agree that George's own antipathy for the Catholic Church is rampant in his written works, and that the Faith of the Seven has clear similarities to The Steel Angels of ASTNKM, among other stories.

But one aspect of the Faith in ASOIAF that's different from what we get about the Steel Angels is that the Faith here have a long and varied history. Filled not just with the distortion of myth and self-serving legends, but also with at least the suggestion of cultural evolution over region and time. Not to mention, GRRM has stated in the series itself that men are men, and all societies have good men, bad men, and everything in between. For this reason, I don't think GRRM is as absolutely anti-FotS as he was anti-Steel Angels. Maybe it's him getting a little more nuanced in his older age, or just enjoying the breadth and depth that a larger story can provide.

But it's for those reasons that I find gilbert's earlier "who do you side with?" framing strange. On the specific practice of human sacrifice? I am against it. I would side with any individual who is against it, at least on that specific matter. I imagine that plenty of people raised among the old gods would also be against the practice of blood sacrifice (particularly among those sacrificed against their will, and their loved ones), though they likely wouldn't have spoken out against the practice, out of fear.

But siding with The Faith in its entirety as an institution or tradition is a whole other matter. I might side with certain individuals, or maybe even specific communities at a given time, but there's plenty of ugliness within the Faith, both in its institutional edicts and in the behaviors of individual believers.

[sweetsunray]

5 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

But it's for those reasons that I find gilbert's earlier "who do you side with?" framing strange. On the specific practice of human sacrifice? I am against it. I would side with any individual who is against it, at least on that specific matter. I imagine that plenty of people raised among the old gods would also be against the practice of blood sacrifice (particularly among those sacrificed against their will, and their loved ones), though they likely wouldn't have spoken out against the practice, out of fear.

But I am with those who has not seen any confirmation or outright example that the First Men (or the CotF) practice human sacrifice. Sure, I see the suggestion of it and the framing of it, but any form of sacrifice claimed to have been committed was always one of committing justice.

Greenseers can see the truth. So any criminal brought before a weirwood cannot lie. Stands to reason that in olden times, criminals were brought before a weirwood to be judged, condemned and executed. Outsiders don't know about greenseers and their abilities, so cannot interprete such a scene accordingly. If the execution of a criminal before a truth seeing weirwood is relagated to a blood sacrifice, then a beheading in front of the Sept in KL is just as much a blood sacrifice. Neither truly are. And entrails in weirwood branches of a group of already dead raping enslavers is no more a blood sacrfice than heads on spikes are. The claims of blood sacrifice before a weirwood are nothing but bias. The "old gods" are only into self-sacrifice, like maester Aemon does when he attempts to save Theon and then drags himself to the heart tree to die there and have his soul return to nature via the weirwood (unwittingly).

The only people we have witnessed committing outright human sacrifice are the Ironborn - Vic, Theon, Aeron and Euron are all commiters of human sacrifice. The more innocent, the more preferable to them.

[Gilbert Green]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So, brindled ghouls I translate to a type of wighted brindled men.

Maybe.  But there seems no particular need to associate the term ghoul with the concept of a zombie.  Forlkore ghouls were not zombies.  And if we take into account all the Lovecraft references, Lovecraft's ghouls were not zombies either.  Lovecraft did give them a vaguely canine appearance (probably a nod towards the hyena connection).

I think it was Romero who originated the confusion between ghoul and zombie.  But that was a while back, so who knows if it influenced ASOIAF.

The brindled folk of Sothyros were called half-men.  Perhaps they were half-man, half "ghoul'.

Or perhaps the "ghouls" are the brindled men themselves, so called for cannibalistic practices and reputed supernatural powers.

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

That's why I clarified Outer gods. But yes, The doom of Sarnath also involves aliens.

True.  But when I think of the Dreamlands, it seems all part of the same landscape.

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Just looking at the bigger picture against other such tales, considering that The Warrior's Sons wear rainbow swords on their shields, and mirroring armor, and hairshirts (hair on the inside, skin on the outside) and spiky crystals on their helms. The Others carry irridescent ice-crystal swords and mirroring armor, and are hairy ice spiders on the inside Spiky crystals on the head in George's stories since the 70s are hivemind antennae or devices to amplify psionic /telepathic abilities.

I really don't think that's what GRRM is going for here.

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I truly recommend checking out a collection of George's writing from his teenhood onwards. He regularly incorporates zealots and christian like religions. I'll let you in on something: they're never good guys. Most often they are self entitled misguided arrogant genocidal scripture fanatics who attempt to paint a horror of their own past as something righteous.

I've read quite a bit of his stuff.  I think maybe you're remembering only what you want to remember.  Yes, there is hostility, but there is nuance as well.  In Tuf Voyaging, Tolly Mune, for instance, is quite eloquent in her defense of her people, and the positive aspects of their religion and culture (a sort of stand-in for Catholicism) and its respect for human life; and to at least some extent, I think she speaks for GRRM.  In The Armageddon Rag, the protagonist saves himself, and maybe the world, by falling back to a more traditional view of ethics, and refuses to commit a murder that he had been led to believe (by dubious visions) would supposedly forestall an apocalyptic nightmare.

There is religious zealotry in ASOIAF as well.  The bad kind?  Mel and her dualistic demon fire god and its hunger for human sacrifice would be one example.  The good kind?  Those pesky septons who stopped the sistermen from throwing dwarfs into the sea would be one example.

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So, no, I don't think George means Hugor or his wife to be Adam and Eve.

My suggestion was King David.  Or a more mythological variant of King David, like a cross between Adam and King David.