The problem making Daenerys Stormborn into Elric 'Stormbringer'

[Evolett]

Good read. I have not read the Elric of Melnibone series but your synopsis sums it up nicely. I take it one of your main points centres around Daenerys becoming very much darker due to her bond with Drogon, as Elric was somewhat corrupted by his sword Stormbringer. As other readers have pointed out, we have no real proof that the personalities of Targs were affected by their dragons. I can however see GRRM using this concept in relation to some swords in the story, especially in respect of Ice and Dawn. Thinking about it, there may even be several not so obvious hints to the idea of a sword influencing its owner negatively in the narrative.

 

On 6/3/2023 at 5:10 PM, Jeff Claburn said:

Indeed, every time Elric kills a magical beast or person with Stormbringer, the sword sucks their soul and Elric gets stronger and more powerful. But Stormbringer gives Elric bloodlust. The sword craves for blood and souls and it makes Elric crave battle as well. Sometimes the sword will fly out of his hand to kill people that Elric wishes to spare. The longer he uses the sword, the more violent and unstable Elric gradually becomes.

  

We know Valyrian Steel swords have physical properties that make them superior weapons. It's also likely that human sacrifice was a component in their forging. Several of the swords we've been introduced to seem to have a life of their own. 

Dawn is said to have been forged in the heart of a fallen star. It's an exceptional blade that's "alive with light" and is only passed on to a member of the Dayne family who has proven himself worthy to swing this sword. The question is, why only one who is "worthy." Two titles are available with the sword - the Sword of the Morning and the Sword of the Evening. 

GRRM gives us Ser Arthur Dayne, the "finest knight" Ned ever saw, as an example. He was the Sword of the Morning. IIRC Vorian Dayne is the only one mentioned to have held the title of Sword of the Evening and he was sent to the Wall in golden fetters by Nymeria. What were his crimes?

Dawn being "alive with light" suggests a sacrifice perhaps akin to the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa in the forging of Lightbringer. LB too is a sword that burns with light - the red sword of heroes. What effect might the sacrificed soul have on the wielder? Would the personality of the human sacrificed affect both the sword and the wielder? Perhaps an honourable owner who is worthy, like Arthur Dayne, has the strength of character to withstand the negative influences of such a sword, while a dishonourable wielder's character will be reinforced, rendering him ever more sinister and monstrous. 

I think the key aspect here is honour. Brienne tells Nimble Dick the tale of Ser Galladon of Morne, the Perfect Knight. The maiden herself bestowed the Just Maid upon him but he used it only thrice and never against a mortal man:

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Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheathe her. He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair.” Crabb thought that was hilarious. “The Perfect Knight? The Perfect Fool, he sounds like. What’s the point o’ having some magic sword if you don’t bloody well use it?” “Honor,” she said. “The point is honor.” 

Ser Galladon refused to use his weapon against ordinary mortals because it would have been an unfair fight. There was no honour in it. Galladon was an honourable knight who did not take advantage of his opponents. And perhaps unsheathing the sword only thrice  was a necessary precaution to prevent the sword from becoming ever more potent to the point of influencing its owner in a negative manner. 

The question of honour also crops up with Jon and Longclaw. Ser Jorah dishonoured himself and his house when he sold poachers into slavery. He was no longer worthy of the sword, leaving it behind. LC Mormont passes Longclaw to Jon as a reward for saving him from wighted Othor, an unprecedented and frankly amazing gift. For some reason, Mormont must think Jon Snow worthy of inheriting the Mormont family heirloom.

Ice is tempered with Ned Stark's blood and has been reforged into Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. What effect might the honourable Ned's blood and soul have on the blades and their wielders? It's possible the two blades are now more "balanced" than the original Ice. 

Should "Darkstar" Gerold Dayne get hold of Dawn, I can see him becoming a "Sword of the Evening." He says of himself that he is "of the night" and he cuts a sinister figure. He is not worthy to bear the sword. If Dawn's power includes an ability to influence the wieder, then Darkstar may become very dark indeed. 

[Springwatch]

Stormbringer being the seed for Lightbringer seems the most likely, and VS swords generally. The hungry sword idea plays out openly with Lady Forlorn - she has a thirst; whenever she comes out to dance she likes a drop of red. Maybe we should be looking at the VS wielders instead of dragon riders and wargs.

[SaffronLady]

7 hours ago, Evolett said:

IIRC Vorian Dayne is the only one mentioned to have held the title of Sword of the Evening and he was sent to the Wall in golden fetters by Nymeria. What were his crimes?

I think given the circumstances it is rather hard to confirm Vorian had whatsoever crime asides from fighting Nymeria. Nymeria did send all of her defeated opponents to the Wall as a substitute for execution after all.

[Evolett]

12 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

20 hours ago, Evolett said:

IIRC Vorian Dayne is the only one mentioned to have held the title of Sword of the Evening and he was sent to the Wall in golden fetters by Nymeria. What were his crimes?

I think given the circumstances it is rather hard to confirm Vorian had whatsoever crime asides from fighting Nymeria. Nymeria did send all of her defeated opponents to the Wall as a substitute for execution after all.

That's true. For all we know he may have even been sent off in a Ned Stark-like situation. The company of kings does arouse some suspicion however. Four of the six kings sound rather sinister and while this does not prove Vorian Dayne or  "Swords of the Evening" are less than savoury characters, it does give me reason to pause and speculate.

 

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THE NAMES OF THE SIX KINGS SENT BY NYMERIA TO THE WALL, AS RELATED IN THE HISTORIES

 YORICK OF HOUSE YRONWOOD, the Bloodroyal, the richest and most powerful of the Dornish kings deposed by House Martell.

VORIAN OF HOUSE DAYNE, Sword of the Evening, renowned as the greatest knight in all of Dorne.

GARRISON OF HOUSE FOWLER, the Blind King, aged and sightless, yet still feared for his cunning.

LUCIFER OF HOUSE DRYLAND, Last of His Ilk, King of the Brimstone, Lord of Hellgate Hall. BENEDICT OF HOUSE BLACKMONT, who worshipped a dark god and was said to have the power to transform himself into a vulture of enormous size.

ALBIN OF HOUSE MANWOODY, a troublesome madman who claimed dominion over the Red Mountains.

The World of Ice and Fire

House Nymeros Martell subdued many more Dornisch houses / petty kings than these six. Perhaps these six refused to bend the knee or maybe she regarded them as particularly dangerous to the newly established order. She seems to have acknowledged their status by sending them off in golden fetters rather than in stronger iron chains. Vorian may have been a "great knight" but what does that really mean and why was he a sword of the evening, rather than a sword of the morning? There must be a difference, otherwise there would be no need for two titles. 

[SaffronLady]

20 hours ago, Evolett said:

maybe she regarded them as particularly dangerous to the newly established order

Reflecting on the power of Houses Yronwood, Dayne and Fowler even in 300AC, we have good reason to say had Nymeria not sent these powerful petty kings to the Wall she would have to fight them again to keep her Rhoynish laws and customs imposed, and disposing of them would smooth the Dornish transition to her supremacy. There probably wasn't anything especially sinister about Vorian Dayne's "Sword of the Evening" title. Maybe he was just 1. quite old for an active knight or 2. preferred to duel opponents in the evening.

[Evolett]

12 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

There probably wasn't anything especially sinister about Vorian Dayne's "Sword of the Evening" title. Maybe he was just 1. quite old for an active knight or 2. preferred to duel opponents in the evening.

I don't see a title being awarded for such mundane reasons, especially since its counterpart, the Sword of the Morning, comes with the requirement of having to prove oneself worthy . It's also capitalized and seems to be of significance. With the Sword of the Morning also being a constellation, Dawn being forged from a fallen star, we also get the distinct feeling here that GRRM might be going for Venus imagery and all that goes with it - Morning Star / Evening Star, Venus as the evening star's association with the fallen angel Lucifer etc. 

There may be separate swords allotted to the two titles, that's one option. That Vorian Dayne was a Sword of the Morning whose title was revoked and changed to Sword of the Evening when he was defeated and sent to the Wall is another possiblity. If he did carry Dawn, he obviously did not take it to the Wall. The title would befit a former Sword of the Morning who joined the Night's Watch. 

[SaffronLady]

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

I don't see a title being awarded for such mundane reasons

Come to think of it, I agree duelling habits don't really work as a reason. But a knight who grew so old that the rest of House Dayne thought he was no longer physically fit to wield the family heirloom still works.

But regarding the Luciferian symbology: I have to agree if this side of the story was expanded upon, there would be a moral dimension behind the Sword of the Evening title. 

[The Sleeper]

On 6/19/2023 at 11:23 PM, Springwatch said:

Stormbringer being the seed for Lightbringer seems the most likely, and VS swords generally. The hungry sword idea plays out openly with Lady Forlorn - she has a thirst; whenever she comes out to dance she likes a drop of red. Maybe we should be looking at the VS wielders instead of dragon riders and wargs.

That is a cool idea.

The first thing my mind went to when I first read the books and specifically the depiction of Ice was Stormbringer and Melnibone. I can get by the idea that Valyrian swords are haunted/cursed or perhaps fated, but it's not a general rule. There plenty of people who are bloodthirsty without Valyrian steel and others who have Valyrian swords and are not bloodthirsty. It could play out as theme but there is room in the story for it to be a genuine magical element.

If we are to look to something like that, it should be the original Valyrian sword, Ice. Original in the sense, that it was the first portrayed in the story and the one most attention has been given to, by far. it has been used regularly in a fashion that has been shown to be very similar to ancient sacrifices (Ned using it for executions, then ritually cleaning it before Winterfell's heart tree, feeding it in the process) even turning against its wielder when it was used to execute Ned. Then there are the resulting swords, which appear to be stained by blood. Their names are also relevant to the stories of their wielders. Widow's Wail appears to be referring to Cersei wailing when Joffrey was murdered. Brienne and Jaime have story arcs that revolve around the keeping of oaths. The description of the fight at the Whispers refers to Oathkeeper coming alive in Brienne's hands. The name "Oathkeeper" could itself be a reference to another sword in Moorcock's mythos "Traitor" which belonged to Corum (Moorcock has tons of cursed swords).

Still, there doesn't appear to be any direct, overt influence, which is why I said that these particular swords may be fated. For the most part, so far it appears to be a theme rather than in story magic.

[Springwatch]

On 6/19/2023 at 6:03 PM, Evolett said:

Ice is tempered with Ned Stark's blood and has been reforged into Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail. What effect might the honourable Ned's blood and soul have on the blades and their wielders? It's possible the two blades are now more "balanced" than the original Ice. 

Great thought. Wow. Hmm.

[Springwatch]

On 6/25/2023 at 10:18 AM, The Sleeper said:

The first thing my mind went to when I first read the books and specifically the depiction of Ice was Stormbringer and Melnibone. I can get by the idea that Valyrian swords are haunted/cursed or perhaps fated, but it's not a general rule. There plenty of people who are bloodthirsty without Valyrian steel and others who have Valyrian swords and are not bloodthirsty. It could play out as theme but there is room in the story for it to be a genuine magical element.

I've not read any Stormbringer stories (maybe I should), but it's got to be worth running with as far as we can.

It's true ordinary steel shares the weirdness (thinking of Jaime and Tyrion and maybe Sandor feeling like the gods of war, and the general 'live steel' idea). I think maybe it's magic - blood being a kind of fuel for magic - but it could be humans just getting a sense of the magic world, similar to legend being a folk memory of something real. So not just a theme, but how much more I don't know.

On 6/25/2023 at 10:18 AM, The Sleeper said:

If we are to look to something like that, it should be the original Valyrian sword, Ice. Original in the sense, that it was the first portrayed in the story and the one most attention has been given to, by far. it has been used regularly in a fashion that has been shown to be very similar to ancient sacrifices (Ned using it for executions, then ritually cleaning it before Winterfell's heart tree, feeding it in the process) even turning against its wielder when it was used to execute Ned. Then there are the resulting swords, which appear to be stained by blood. Their names are also relevant to the stories of their wielders. Widow's Wail appears to be referring to Cersei wailing when Joffrey was murdered. Brienne and Jaime have story arcs that revolve around the keeping of oaths. The description of the fight at the Whispers refers to Oathkeeper coming alive in Brienne's hands. The name "Oathkeeper" could itself be a reference to another sword in Moorcock's mythos "Traitor" which belonged to Corum (Moorcock has tons of cursed swords).

I think we don't get close enough to most VS wielders to get inside their heads, but for the ones we do, the Stormbringer angle is a lot of fun. Ice most of all. None of us doubts Ned is an honourable guy, but Cat's first chapter is suggestive: Whenever he took a man's life, afterward he would seek the quiet of the godswood. And then she says: 'I did not wish to trouble you until you had cleansed yourself.'  So! Ned feels unclean after killing with Ice. And what does he feel exactly? The Hound might have it: 'Your father lied. Killing is the sweetest thing there is.'  Yep, that would definitely make Ned feel unclean.

The other VS greatsword is Heartsbane, and Randyll is clearly mad as a box of frogs. This is how he dismissed Sam, his eldest son: 'on the morrow we shall have a hunt, and somewhere in the woods your horse will stumble, and you will be thrown from the saddle to die... or so I will tell your mother. [...] Please do not imagine it will truly be that easy, should you think to defy me. Nothing would please me more than to hunt you down like the pig you are.'

Randyll sounds like a man in a long relationship with a Stormbringer sword. And he says this: 'Heartsbane must go to a man strong enough to wield her, and you are not worthy to touch her hilt.'  Her hilt. More anthropomorphism, just like Lady Forlorn. And of course, of course a bloodthirsty soul-drinking demonblade would not be happy in marriage to Samwell Tarly.

For a bonus, Sam describes how he felt holding Heartsbane: 'It was Valyrian steel, beautiful but so sharp I was afraid I'd hurt one of my sisters.'  Well don't point it at your sister, Sam! Where did that thought even come from?

Heartsbane is beautiful, feminine, must have a man worthy of her, and inspires thoughts about Sam's sisters falling victim to her. Demonblade.