Sansa and Cersei: Sides of the Same Coin

[Springwatch]

On 6/21/2023 at 4:53 PM, Mourning Star said:

I don't know, it seems like a pretty big and substantive betrayal to me, though not to the point literally killing Ned.

The conflict was coming, and it was Littlefinger's choice to side with Cersei that really decided the matter (since he owned the Gold Cloaks in all but name). However, Sansa did clearly disobey her father and run to Cersei with his plans, which I think qualifies as a pretty solid betrayal. Not that we can't sympathize and understand her motives, but it was still selfish and disloyal.

Not substantive though - Sansa knows nothing at all that could hurt Ned. She didn't get him killed, or imprisoned, or even hurt his feelings that we can see - he knows he did it to himself. He gave Cersei all the information she needed to trap him, and besides he was completely naive to the spies and traitors of KL. He paid the price.

On 6/21/2023 at 4:53 PM, Mourning Star said:

No interesting character is perfect, and I do think GRRM's plan for Sansa has become more interesting as the storytelling evolved, being less of a Cersei-lite and more a main character in her own right. I do think the jury is still out on what the future of Sansa's plot looks like, and personally do hope it becomes more about overcoming her situation than a tale of a victim becoming a villain.

Villain or hero, as long as it's big, I don't mind. Sansa was always a big character - look at the time and plotting GRRM spends on her! There will be a pay-off.

[Mourning Star]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Not substantive though - Sansa knows nothing at all that could hurt Ned.
 

I disagree. Her telling Cersei about the ship waiting to take them to Winterfell almost results in Arya getting caught.

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

She didn't get him killed, or imprisoned, or even hurt his feelings that we can see - he knows he did it to himself.

Never claimed she killed him, just betrayed him, which I don’t really think is up for dispute.

Ned’s one man in a thousand.

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

He gave Cersei all the information she needed to trap him, and besides he was completely naive to the spies and traitors of KL. He paid the price.

Ned trusted Cat when it came to Littlefinger. That was what got him killed.

There is no promise of a material reward for being a good man. 

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Villain or hero, as long as it's big, I don't mind. Sansa was always a big character - look at the time and plotting GRRM spends on her! There will be a pay-off.

I think the original outlines show Sansa was not originally a big character, and was supposed to have Joffrey’s kid, but her role has clearly changed with the telling. Although she’s basically been a pawn up until this point, I think we all hope she takes on a more active role.

[Springwatch]

On 6/23/2023 at 2:04 PM, Mourning Star said:

I disagree. Her telling Cersei about the ship waiting to take them to Winterfell almost results in Arya getting caught.

Ned is not Arya. I was arguing against the use of the word 'betrayal' because the primary implication of the word is that Ned himself, in person, was delivered by Sansa into the power of Cersei and as a consequence was executed. I think that's how most people hear it.

The whole ship thing isn't strong either:

1. Nowhere is it shown that Sansa told Cersei about the ship.
2. The spy networks extend to the docks, as shown by Catelyn's experience.
3. The Starks are rubbish at keeping secrets. Ned sent his own steward to arrange passage, a man easily identified by the spies.

(Above from memory, I'll try and check it later.) (All good.)

On 6/23/2023 at 2:04 PM, Mourning Star said:

Never claimed she killed him, just betrayed him, which I don’t really think is up for dispute.

I do dispute it. 'Betrayal' has so wide a definition it's almost worthless: it covers everything from hurt feelings of one person, to loss, suffering and/or death for millions. It's a rubbish word, it only misleads.

I don't think it's accurate either. Sansa loves her father, never transferred her loyalties to Cersei. She wanted to stay with her father in the Tower of the Hand, just like before. She went crazy with grief when he died. She didn't harm him either - never wished to harm him, and knew nothing that could harm him. The idea of betrayal collapses to nothing.

On 6/23/2023 at 2:04 PM, Mourning Star said:

Ned’s one man in a thousand.

True.

On 6/23/2023 at 2:04 PM, Mourning Star said:

Ned trusted Cat when it came to Littlefinger. That was what got him killed.

Ned is big enough and old enough to take responsibility for his own decisions. And he is a class act who would never shift the blame for his mistakes onto the nearest family female, like those whiny Lannister babies (Cersei made me do it!)

On 6/23/2023 at 2:04 PM, Mourning Star said:

There is no promise of a material reward for being a good man. 

True again.

On 6/23/2023 at 2:04 PM, Mourning Star said:

I think the original outlines show Sansa was not originally a big character, and was supposed to have Joffrey’s kid, but her role has clearly changed with the telling. Although she’s basically been a pawn up until this point, I think we all hope she takes on a more active role.

I don't know. My instinct is that everyone carries on as they did before, playing the same role and strategies, but the stakes get much, much higher.

Also, so far it's been the strong against the weak, and the weak have been crushed miserably, but I think the weak will get their turn to make a difference in the coming plot. Bran's on the weak side. So is Sam. So is Sansa.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Springwatch
Added 'one person'. Checked the bits about the ship.

[csuszka1948]

On 6/21/2023 at 5:53 PM, Mourning Star said:

All good, I'm guilty myself often enough.

I don't know, it seems like a pretty big and substantive betrayal to me, though not to the point literally killing Ned.

The conflict was coming, and it was Littlefinger's choice to side with Cersei that really decided the matter (since he owned the Gold Cloaks in all but name). However, Sansa did clearly disobey her father and run to Cersei with his plans, which I think qualifies as a pretty solid betrayal. Not that we can't sympathize and understand her motives, but it was still selfish and disloyal. No interesting character is perfect, and I do think GRRM's plan for Sansa has become more interesting as the storytelling evolved, being less of a Cersei-lite and more a main character in her own right. I do think the jury is still out on what the future of Sansa's plot looks like, and personally do hope it becomes more about overcoming her situation than a tale of a victim becoming a villain.

 

It seems like a teenage rebelllion to me. Arya was allowed to break the rules 100 times, and Sansa did it one time.

She didn't think Cersei as an enemy, because her father refused to explain the severity situation to her before (unlike with Arya) and personally offered to execute Lady, validating Robert's (and Cersei's) decision.

[Mourning Star]

On 6/24/2023 at 6:18 AM, Springwatch said:

Ned is not Arya. I was arguing against the use of the word 'betrayal' because the primary implication of the word is that Ned himself, in person, was delivered by Sansa into the power of Cersei and as a consequence was executed. I think that's how most people hear it.

So we disagree about what betrayal does or does not necessarily imply.

On 6/24/2023 at 6:18 AM, Springwatch said:

The whole ship thing isn't strong either:

1. Nowhere is it shown that Sansa told Cersei about the ship.
2. The spy networks extend to the docks, as shown by Catelyn's experience.
3. The Starks are rubbish at keeping secrets. Ned sent his own steward to arrange passage, a man easily identified by the spies.

(Above from memory, I'll try and check it later.) (All good.)

Seems like the guards at the ship are caused by Sansa telling Cersei Ned's plans, but it doesn't really matter.

On 6/24/2023 at 6:18 AM, Springwatch said:

I do dispute it. 'Betrayal' has so wide a definition it's almost worthless: it covers everything from hurt feelings of one person, to loss, suffering and/or death for millions. It's a rubbish word, it only misleads.

You are disputing the common definition of a word, enjoy.

On 6/24/2023 at 6:18 AM, Springwatch said:

Ned is big enough and old enough to take responsibility for his own decisions. And he is a class act who would never shift the blame for his mistakes onto the nearest family female, like those whiny Lannister babies (Cersei made me do it!)

To his credit he never sought to put the blame on anyone. We as readers can se the course of events more clearly, and in my opinion it's his faith in Cat's misplaced trust in Littlefinger that directly results in his downfall. You are entitled to disagree.

On 6/24/2023 at 6:18 AM, Springwatch said:

I don't know. My instinct is that everyone carries on as they did before, playing the same role and strategies, but the stakes get much, much higher.

Also, so far it's been the strong against the weak, and the weak have been crushed miserably, but I think the weak will get their turn to make a difference in the coming plot. Bran's on the weak side. So is Sam. So is Sansa.

There are different kinds of strength. Hopefully one day we find out.

[Mourning Star]

On 6/24/2023 at 11:16 PM, csuszka1948 said:

It seems like a teenage rebelllion to me. Arya was allowed to break the rules 100 times, and Sansa did it one time.

Of course it's teenage rebellion, but all acts of rebellion are not the same.

On 6/24/2023 at 11:16 PM, csuszka1948 said:

She didn't think Cersei as an enemy, because her father refused to explain the severity situation to her before (unlike with Arya) and personally offered to execute Lady, validating Robert's (and Cersei's) decision.

Sansa, is a kid, and this comes with all the associated responsibility on the part of her parents and sympathy from the audience.

In my opinion, it does not entirely absolve the child of responsibility for their actions. I think it's no coincidence that Sansa's wolf is killed because she refused to tell the truth on the Trident, and her ending up in the Lannister clutches of her own volition during the coup.

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

So we disagree about what betrayal does or does not necessarily imply.

So much is implied, so little happened. That's how George wrote it.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

I think it's no coincidence that Sansa's wolf is killed because she refused to tell the truth on the Trident, and her ending up in the Lannister clutches of her own volition during the coup.

We genuinely do disagree pretty much on everything, so you won't be surprised here either.

Lady died because Cersei was freaked out by the direwolves (She shuddered. She called them 'unnatural'. She said, "They are dangerous. I will not have any of them coming south with us."). And Lady died because Joffrey was bitten by a direwolf. And because Robert thought Lady was a 'savage beast' who would attack Sansa eventually. And because Ned let it happen.

Sansa walked toward Cersei, true, but she and everyone else were already in Lannister clutches. There was a coup on, and Ned's stronghold was a target.