Matrilineal Descent (Stark and Lannister)

[Tradecraft]

Don't the Bael the Bard and Lann the clever tales prove that the Starks and Lannisters are matrilineal? 

 

The Starks trace all their claims back to a single woman "abducted by Bael". 

The Lannisters trace themselves back to Lann the Clever, who bedded female Casterly's. The legitimacy of the Lannisters is secured if they claim descent through Women. 

 

The Hoares are also probably Matrilineal. Which would make Sansa an insanely strong claimant to Harrenhal (presuming the Whents married female Lothstons... A tradition used when trying to take over a castle you have no ties to. )

[Lord Varys]

The Lannisters are Lannisters and view themselves as descendants of Lann the Clever, not some nameless Casterly woman.

There is another instance of a nameless Lannister woman marrying Joffrey Lydden, who becomes the first Andal king of the West. But there they glued the Lannister name on his descendant and had him take the name, so it was quite different.

While it seems that once we have a Stark bastard succeeding his grandfather through the female line in the Bael case ... said Stark was apparently eventually skinned alive by a Bolton, indicating that this entire branch of House Stark may have died out. His successor could have been some Stark cousin through the male line. We don't hear anything about him having children nor about all present Starks being descended from that guy. It is just a wildling story, after all.

[Alester Florent]

I think we need to establish what we mean here. "Matrilineal" doesn't mean "capable of succeeding through a female line"; it means that legitimacy is principally passed down through the female line.

Westerosi succession laws seem to be customary rather than statutory. But In order to be actually matrilineal, succession through the female line needs to be, if not continuous (as a want of female successors could lead to male succession), then at least regular or frequent.

Instead what we have in both instances is an almost entirely patrilineal succession which very occasionally passes through a female line out of apparent necessity (presumably due to lack of male heirs).

Note that the Baratheons are in an almost identical situation to the Lannisters here, albeit considerably younger. Their acquisition of Storm's End was initially through force but formalised through marriage to the preceding house, making them the legitimate successors of the Durrandons, as the Lannisters are of the Casterlys. But they are still Baratheons, not Durrandons, just as the Lannisters are Lannisters rather than Casterlys.

I don't know why the Hoares should be matrilineal either. The Iron Islands appears a deeply patriarchal place and Harren's sons are much more important for the histories than his daughters (of whom we know nothing, if they even existed). The Volmarks may now claim the legacy of house Hoare through a female line, but as with the Durrandons and the Casterlys, this is because the Hoares are extinct in the male line, not because the Hoares were matrilineal - indeed if they were you would expect the Volmarks to be Hoares, not Volmarks.

[Corvo the Crow]

13 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

The Hoares are also probably Matrilineal. Which would make Sansa an insanely strong claimant to Harrenhal (presuming the Whents married female Lothstons... A tradition used when trying to take over a castle you have no ties to. )

Whents probably did, but what connection do Lothstons evet have to Hoares?

[Tradecraft]

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Whents probably did, but what connection do Lothstons evet have to Hoares?

It's always a good move to marry the last lords daughter. Like when Ramsay marries "Arya" Stark... 

When you can get your hands on the real deal... 

 

I am also thinking the Baratheons also descend from an important female. The one whose parents kept destroying Duran Godsgrief's house down. Orys would have married a female of that line, I think. 

[Tradecraft]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Lannisters are Lannisters and view themselves as descendants of Lann the Clever, not some nameless Casterly woman.

There is another instance of a nameless Lannister woman marrying Joffrey Lydden, who becomes the first Andal king of the West. But there they glued the Lannister name on his descendant and had him take the name, so it was quite different.

While it seems that once we have a Stark bastard succeeding his grandfather through the female line in the Bael case ... said Stark was apparently eventually skinned alive by a Bolton, indicating that this entire branch of House Stark may have died out. His successor could have been some Stark cousin through the male line. We don't hear anything about him having children nor about all present Starks being descended from that guy. It is just a wildling story, after all.

It's the blood that matters. Not the name. 

 

The woman's blood keeps the castle. Even if the name is lost. 

All women lose their names when they get married... We don't really trace their bloodlines. We trace the males through the name. 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

18 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

It's always a good move to marry the last lords daughter. Like when Ramsay marries "Arya" Stark... 

When you can get your hands on the real deal... 

 

I am also thinking the Baratheons also descend from an important female. The one whose parents kept destroying Duran Godsgrief's house down. Orys would have married a female of that line, I think. 

Yes, it is quite a common practice, we are given examples of numerous lords who did it, especially Starks but Hoares weren't the last lord prior to Lothstons, A whole lot of other houses came and went before them. 

I also think Durran's legend is actually just an embellished story of this happening but Argella is the daughter of the last member of (to our knowledge) unbroken line of males that go back for thousands of years, she isn't the last daughter in an unbroken line of FEmales.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Daena the Defiant]

19 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

It's always a good move to marry the last lords daughter. Like when Ramsay marries "Arya" Stark... 

When you can get your hands on the real deal... 

 

I am also thinking the Baratheons also descend from an important female. The one whose parents kept destroying Duran Godsgrief's house down. Orys would have married a female of that line, I think. 

Or, Lancel Lannister and Ami Darry, as another recent example.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Daena the Defiant

[Alester Florent]

18 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yes, it is quite a common practice, we are given examples of numerous lords who did it, especially Starks but Hoares weren't the last lord prior to Lothstons, A whole lot of other houses came and went before them.

Yep.

The first family to follow the Hoares at Harrenhal were House Qoherys, who were Valyrians. Given that Harrenhal had been burned to a crisp with no known survivors, it seems likely that any unmarried daughters of Harren died in the fire. The first Qoherys then married a Tully wife.

In fact I don't think there's a single instance of a clear hereditary succession to Harrenhal or an attempt to legitimise one. It seems to be given out as a reward for loyal service - in some instances, the service in question being defeating the previous owning house. This continues into the story of ASoIaF: the current Lord of Harrenhal bears no relation to the Whents, and while he did marry a Whent descendant, that marriage had nothing to do with Harrenhal and I don't think Harrenhal has ever been mentioned in that context.

[Lord Varys]

40 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Yep.

The first family to follow the Hoares at Harrenhal were House Qoherys, who were Valyrians. Given that Harrenhal had been burned to a crisp with no known survivors, it seems likely that any unmarried daughters of Harren died in the fire. The first Qoherys then married a Tully wife.

In fact I don't think there's a single instance of a clear hereditary succession to Harrenhal or an attempt to legitimise one. It seems to be given out as a reward for loyal service - in some instances, the service in question being defeating the previous owning house. This continues into the story of ASoIaF: the current Lord of Harrenhal bears no relation to the Whents, and while he did marry a Whent descendant, that marriage had nothing to do with Harrenhal and I don't think Harrenhal has ever been mentioned in that context.

Lord Quenton Qoherys did marry a daughter of Edmyn Tully, but he already had two sons and a grandson from (likely) his elder son, the future Gargon the Guest.

Obviously Gargon spread around the Qoherys blood in the Riverlands with his First Night obsession ... but that would have had nothing to do with Harroways succeeding the Qoherys as Lords of Harrenhal. Although, of course, Lord Harroway's Town isn't that far away from Harrenhal and we can reasonably assume it was the original seat of the Harroways before they were given Harrenhal, so it is not impossible - perhaps even likely - that King Aenys granted Harrenhal to Lucas Harroway because he was either a son of a daughter or Quenton Qoherys and his Tully wife - or married to such a daughter.

Aenys strikes one as a guy who would try to give a lordship to the rightful heir, not being keen to create new lords left and right.

House Towers seems to be completely unconnected to a previous owner, especially since Maegor would also have taken considerable effort to well and truly extiniguish House Harroway. Although, of course, of House Qoherys produced any daughters through Quenton, his two sons, or Gargon and they were safely married to powerful lords before 37 AC the bloodline would have survived through the female line.

The Strongs could have had tangential connection to both the Qoherys and the Harroways since they were Riverlords before they got Harrenhal, and quite prominent in the Realm as Ser Osmund Strong's tenure as Hand shows. We would expect them to make matches with the Tullys and whatever house ruled Harrenhal at that time and thereafter.

Lothstons are new men again, and perhaps even actually clandestine Targaryens if the eldest son of Lord Lucas Lothston was actually fathered by Aegon the Unworthy - which seems not unlikely considering the reports about the early stage of the marriage. The Whents are former retainers of the Lothstons, so they could be distant cousins, too. The bat motif in their sigil might hint at something of that sort.

[Corvo the Crow]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Lothstons are new men again, and perhaps even actually clandestine Targaryens if the eldest son of Lord Lucas Lothston was actually fathered by Aegon the Unworthy - which seems not unlikely considering the reports about the early stage of the marriage. The Whents are former retainers of the Lothstons, so they could be distant cousins, too. The bat motif in their sigil might hint at something of that sort.

Their CoA hints at them being ninth in line, just like Cassel CoA hints at being Tenth child and a bastard.

[Tradecraft]

On 7/9/2023 at 9:37 AM, Alester Florent said:

Yep.

The first family to follow the Hoares at Harrenhal were House Qoherys, who were Valyrians. Given that Harrenhal had been burned to a crisp with no known survivors, it seems likely that any unmarried daughters of Harren died in the fire. The first Qoherys then married a Tully wife.

In fact I don't think there's a single instance of a clear hereditary succession to Harrenhal or an attempt to legitimise one. It seems to be given out as a reward for loyal service - in some instances, the service in question being defeating the previous owning house. This continues into the story of ASoIaF: the current Lord of Harrenhal bears no relation to the Whents, and while he did marry a Whent descendant, that marriage had nothing to do with Harrenhal and I don't think Harrenhal has ever been mentioned in that context.

We very rarely see entire families wiped out. 

 

More often than not, the females survive and under matrilineal societies that's all that matters. 

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

We very rarely see entire families wiped out. 

 

More often than not, the females survive and under matrilineal societies that's all that matters. 

But Westeros isn't a matrilineal society. Property, titles and names are passed down the male line. Only if the male line is extinct is the female line even considered, and then it is married into another male line which continues down the male line. That Westeros is prepared to consider cognatic succession when all else fails does not make it a matrilineal society. It makes it a patriarchal one with some exceptions where necessary.

The only area that's different is Dorne, and even then family names pass down through the male line as well as (seemingly less often) the female. 

Calling Westerosi society matrilineal on this basis is like calling the Westerosi monarchy elective because of the great council that chose Aegon V. It's a hereditary monarchy that has on one occasion found it necessary to elect a king in the absence of a clear heir. The exceptions are exceptions, not the rule. 

[Tradecraft]

I have no definitive proof of matrilineality outside Dorne. 

But I see limited proof of it's existence among the Starks, as they all descend from the same single female Stark from the tale of Bael the Bard. 

I'm placing a marker here (and asking advice for how to proceed in this investigation), in case we get further proof down the road. 

[Corvo the Crow]

11 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

I have no definitive proof of matrilineality outside Dorne. 

But I see limited proof of it's existence among the Starks, as they all descend from the same single female Stark from the tale of Bael the Bard. 

I'm placing a marker here (and asking advice for how to proceed in this investigation), in case we get further proof down the road. 

That girl is just a bard’s tale. If she had ever existed she would’ve taken her place in history books just like Joffrey Lydden marriage.

Even if she did exist there are several other problems like a) her son being a bastard b) there are likely being numerous branches existing just like today (GRRM said there would be obscure branches in Barrowton and White Harbor) c) her son dying with no  mention of children