The Grey Man

[White Night]

This is a small post for a small man. Its only purpose is to analyse maester Luwin's identity.

1. Grey eyes are mostly found in the North.

2. The name Luwin sounds similar to the following Northern names; Gawen, Owen, Bowen, Torren, Hullen, and Hal Mollen.

3. The maester believes in the Old Gods as evidenced by his choice of his final resting place.

 

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The maester was a small grey man. His eyes were grey, and quick, and saw much. His hair was grey, what little the years had left him. 

Very few Northern houses are short in stature; the Crannogmen, the Flints of the mountains and the Norreys.

The Crannogmen are unnaturally small, and their unusual stature is often pointed at repeatedly, whereas Luwin is casually described like all the other characters with small stature in the books. This fact coupled with the deep distrust of maesters in the Neck rules out the Crannogmen for me. Of the two remaining mountain clans, The Flints are described as stout with big hands. This leaves only the Norreys. Here is how the clan chief Brandon Norrey is described

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The Norrey looked like some old fox—wrinkled and slight of build, but sly-eyed and spry.

 The closest sounding name to Luwin is Owen, and although this is a somewhat common Westerosi name, the only Northern character with such a name is Owen Norrey

Edited July 12, 2023 by White Night

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, White Night said:

1. Grey eyes are mostly found in the North.

 

Umm...

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 The right side of his face was gaunt, with sharp cheekbones and a grey eye beneath a heavy brow. His nose was large and hooked, his hair thin, dark. He wore it long and brushed it sideways, because no hair grew on the other side of that face.

"I know the man." Ser Mandon's eyes were pale grey, oddly flat and lifeless.

"I do." Robb spurred his horse forward. He was in his armor, with the direwolf shield of Winterfell strapped to his saddle and Grey Wind padding by his side. The old knight looked at her son with a faint flicker of amusement in his watery grey eyes, though his gelding whickered uneasily and sidled away from the direwolf. "My lord father would be most honored if you would share meat and mead with him in the castle and explain your purpose here."

Jason Mallister rose to offer Catelyn his seat. His hair had almost as much white in it as brown, but the Lord of Seagard was still a handsome man; tall and lean, with a chiseled clean-shaven face, high cheekbones, and fierce blue-grey eyes. "Lady Stark, it is ever a pleasure. I bring good tidings, I hope."

Just a few but But I like the thought behind the thread.

[Mourning Star]

2 hours ago, White Night said:

This is a small post for a small man. Its only purpose is to analyse maester Luwin's identity.

1. Grey eyes are mostly found in the North.

2. The name Luwin sounds similar to the following Northern names; Gawen, Owen, Bowen, Torren, Hullen, and Hal Mollen.

3. The maester believes in the Old Gods as evidenced by his choice of his final resting place.

 

Very few Northern houses are short in stature; the Crannogmen, the Flints of the mountains and the Norreys.

The Crannogmen are unnaturally small, and their unusual stature is often pointed at repeatedly, whereas Luwin is casually described like all the other characters with small stature in the books. This fact coupled with the deep distrust of maesters in the Neck rules out the Crannogmen for me. Of the two remaining mountain clans, The Flints are described as stout with big hands. This leaves only the Norreys. Here is how the clan chief Brandon Norrey is described

 The closest sounding name to Luwin is Owen, and although this is a somewhat common Westerosi name, the only Northern character with such a name is Owen Norrey

I'm not sure we can place they grey eyes in a specific geographic place, while there are a bunch of characters in the North with them, including wildlings, there are also people like Homeless Harry Strickland, Bronze Yohn Royce and even a Gardener King. That said, a First Man connection might be there, for whatever it's worth.

As for the name, I like the idea that its a play on "Lewin", meaning beloved friend, and "Lupus" meaning wolf, making Luwin a wolf friend.

I've always been intrigued by Luwin's comment here, but I don't have any real insight to share regarding his origins:

"There are men who call themselves mages and warlocks," Maester Luwin said. "I had a friend at the Citadel who could pull a rose out of your ear, but he was no more magical than I was. Oh, to be sure, there is much we do not understand. The years pass in their hundreds and their thousands, and what does any man see of life but a few summers, a few winters? We look at mountains and call them eternal, and so they seem . . . but in the course of time, mountains rise and fall, rivers change their courses, stars fall from the sky, and great cities sink beneath the sea. Even gods die, we think. Everything changes.

[White Night]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Umm...

Just a few but But I like the thought behind the thread.

 

As per my database, in the Vale, there's only house Royce and Mandon Moore (3). In the Riverlands, there's only Stevron Frey whose mother is a Royce (1). On the Iron Islands, there's Gylbert Farwynd who, interestingly, has eyes of changing colour; now grey, now blue (1). In the Westerlands there's only Sandor Clegane (1) There's also two Westerosi characters with unknown origins; Qhoren Halfhand (most likely an Ironman–maybe even a Farwynd) and Harry Strickland (2). In the Crownlands, the Stormlands, the Reach and Dorne, there's none.

In the North there's House Stark, House Bolton, House Karstark, Some Manderlys, Magnars of Thenn, Val, and Rattleshirt (12).

 

As we can see, grey eyes are concentrated in the North, and the further south we go, the scarcer the grey eyes* appear.

 

 

*Eye colours that are described as grey-blue, grey-green or blue-grey are not counted

[White Night]

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I'm not sure we can place they grey eyes in a specific geographic place, while there are a bunch of characters in the North with them, including wildlings, there are also people like Homeless Harry Strickland, Bronze Yohn Royce and even a Gardener King. That said, a First Man connection might be there, for whatever it's worth.

Which Gardener King? Please refer back to my previous reply. If I have omitted a character with grey eyes, kindly let me know.

[Corvo the Crow]

53 minutes ago, White Night said:

In the North there's House Stark, House Bolton, House Karstark, Some Manderlys, Magnars of Thenn, Val, and Rattleshirt (12).

 

Manderlys are of Reach origin and Roose has PALE eyes, eyes that many characters from the South have(though not as pale as his) like:

Selyse from Reach

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"I am pleased to hear it, my lord." Lady Selyse was as tall as her husband, thin of body and thin of face, with prominent ears, a sharp nose, and the faintest hint of a mustache on her upper lip. She plucked it daily and cursed it regularly, yet it never failed to return. Her eyes were pale, her mouth stern, her voice a whip. She cracked it now. "Lady Arryn owes you her allegiance, as do the Starks, your brother Renly, and all the rest. You are their one true king. It would not be fitting to plead and bargain with them for what is rightfully yours by the grace of god."

Samwell from Reach, whose mother is a Florent like Selyse above

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Jon turned. Through the eye slit of his helm, he beheld the fattest boy he had ever seen standing in the door of the armory. By the look of him, he must have weighed twenty stone. The fur collar of his embroidered surcoat was lost beneath his chins. Pale eyes moved nervously in a great round moon of a face, and plump sweaty fingers wiped themselves on the velvet of his doublet. “They … they told me I was to come here for … for training,” he said to no one in particular

 

Ilyn Payne from Westerlands

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She waited for an answer, but none came. As the headsman looked at her, his pale colorless eyes seemed to strip the clothes away from her, and then the skin, leaving her soul naked before him. Still silent, he turned and walked away.

Pycelle 

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"When the girl had taken her leave, Pycelle peered at Ned through pale, rheumy eyes." 

 

Dagmer from Iron Islands

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“Your lord father commanded us to harry the coast, no more.” Eyes pale as sea foam watched Theon from under those shaggy white eyebrows. Was it disapproval he saw there, or a spark of interest? The latter, he thought … hoped …

There are also characters with pale blue eyes such as Lysa, Jorah, Barristan, Leobald Tallhart, Jon Connington or pale green eyes like Tywin but I'm not adding them since you've said this

53 minutes ago, White Night said:

*Eye colours that are described as grey-blue, grey-green or blue-grey are not counted

But not all members of house Stark adhere to this rule either, with Benjen having blue grey eyes

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His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain crag, but there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-grey eyes. He dressed in black, as befitted a man of the Night's Watch. Tonight it was rich black velvet, with high leather boots and a wide belt with a silver buckle. A heavy silver chain was looped round his neck. Benjen watched Ghost with amusement as he ate his onion. "A very quiet wolf," he observed.

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, White Night said:

Which Gardener King? Please refer back to my previous reply. If I have omitted a character with grey eyes, kindly let me know.

In those centuries of trial and tumult, the Reach produced many a fearless warrior. From that day to this, the singers have celebrated the deeds of knights like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos the Dragonslayer, Roland of the Horn, and the Knight Without Armor—and the legendary kings who led them, among them Garth V (Hammer of the Dornish), Gwayne I (the Gallant), Gyles I (the Woe), Gareth II (the Grim), Garth VI (the Morningstar), and Gordan I (Grey-Eyes).

[White Night]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Manderlys are of Reach origin and Roose has PALE eyes, eyes that many characters from the South have(though not as pale as his) like:

Selyse from Reach

Samwell from Reach, whose mother is a Florent like Selyse above

 

Ilyn Payne from Westerlands

Pycelle 

 

Dagmer from Iron Islands

There are also characters with pale blue eyes such as Lysa, Jorah, Barristan, Leobald Tallhart, Jon Connington or pale green eyes like Tywin but I'm not adding them since you've said this

But not all members of house Stark adhere to this rule either, with Benjen having blue grey eyes

 

a. Manderlys have been northerns and marrying into northerns for almost a thousand years. 

b. My post was quite clear that characters with blue-grey eye colours were not part of the count in order to eliminate any suspicions. Benjen, therefore, was not included.

b. Roose Bolton's eyes are pale grey as the description below puts his eye colour on the grey spectrum, albeit on the very light end.

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Roose Bolton's eyes were paler than stone, darker than milk

Pale is a colour intensity not a hue; there's pale grey and pale blue, etc, so, I don't know why you're listing characters with pale eyes as this is immaterial to the discussion and quite distracting. I would prefer it if my topic did not branch out into irrelevant discussions. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by White Night

[Nevets]

Maester Luwin first appeared in Winterfell roughly thirty years ago (twenty years, Westeros time), having come there from Lord Martin's desktop, apparently via Riverrun.  He arrived with no knowledge of his past, other than the learning he received at the Citadel.  He died some years later, with no further information about his past coming to light.  Given a complete lack of available evidence, it is likely that any future inquiry into his past will prove fruitless.

[Corvo the Crow]

20 hours ago, White Night said:

The name Luwin sounds similar to the following Northern names; Gawen, Owen, Bowen, Torren, Hullen, and Hal Mollen.

Hal Mollen is not a name, it is Hallis Mollen and Mollen is his family name. I’m pretty sure I can find a whole lot of names as similar as the ones you provided but won’t bother.

13 hours ago, White Night said:

I would prefer it if my topic did not branch out into irrelevant discussions. 

If you are going to take this kind of attitude at least get things right in the first place.

[White Night]

48 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Maester Luwin first appeared in Winterfell roughly thirty years ago (twenty years, Westeros time), having come there from Lord Martin's desktop, apparently via Riverrun.  He arrived with no knowledge of his past, other than the learning he received at the Citadel.  He died some years later, with no further information about his past coming to light.  Given a complete lack of available evidence, it is likely that any future inquiry into his past will prove fruitless.

 

Fruitless? On the contrary, GRRM tells the reader through Lady Dustin that some maesters' identities are no trivial matters, thereby suggesting that we should look into their pasts. Luwin first appeared on the scene in somewhat mysterious circumstances as a replacement to Maester Walys–a character with an intriguing background of his own. Lady Dustin describes how 'Once [Walys] forged his chain, his secret father and his friends wasted no time dispatching him to Winterfell to fill Lord Rickard’s ears with poisoned word.' This sentence alone indicates two things; first, the importance of Winterfell and house Stark to the Citadel; second, that some maesters have ulterior motives. Walys' successor would be no less significant than him. This is further established by the fact that Luwin is one of the handful of maesters that studied the higher mysteries.

This is how we are first introduced to small grey man

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 His eyes were grey, and quick, and saw much. His hair was grey, what little the years had left him. His robe was grey wool, trimmed with white fur, the Stark colors. Its great floppy sleeves had pockets hidden inside. Luwin was always tucking things into those sleeves and producing other things from them: books, messages, strange artifacts, toys for the children. With all he kept hidden in his sleeves, Catelyn was surprised that Maester Luwin could lift his arms at all.

 

 

 

[White Night]

8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Hal Mollen is not a name, it is Hallis Mollen and Mollen is his family name. I’m pretty sure I can find a whole lot of names as similar as the ones you provided but won’t bother.

If you keep to the topic at hand I will gladly discuss it with you. As to the name Hal Mollen, it's is a fair critique, so I will no longer include Mollen in the northern given names. 

[Nevets]

Something to chew on: Catelyn mentions to Ned that Luwin had delivered all of her children.  Robb, her firstborn, was born at Riverrun. So, assuming it's not an author's error, what was Luwin doing at Riverrun and how did he end up at Winterfell?

[White Night]

Further proofs to the significance a maester's background and its implication for both the strategies of the Citedal and the politics of the Seven Kingdoms.

 

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Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted.

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If Stannis wonders that my letters say so little, it is because I dare not even trust my maester. Theomore is all head and no heart. You heard him in my hall. Maesters are supposed to put aside old loyalties when they don their chains, but I cannot forget that Theomore was born a Lannister of Lannisport and claims some distant kinship to the Lannisters of Casterly Rock.

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the Conclave accepted the fact of Pycelle’s dismissal and set about choosing his successor. After giving due consideration to Maester Turquin the cordwainer’s son and Maester Erreck the hedge knight’s bastard, and thereby demonstrating to their own satisfaction that ability counts for more than birth in their order, the Conclave was on the verge of sending us Maester Gormon, a Tyrell of Highgarden. When I told your lord father, he acted at once.

Edited July 12, 2023 by White Night

[Loose Bolt]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

Something to chew on: Catelyn mentions to Ned that Luwin had delivered all of her children.  Robb, her firstborn, was born at Riverrun. So, assuming it's not an author's error, what was Luwin doing at Riverrun and how did he end up at Winterfell?

I assume that Luwin served Riverrun and House Tully until he came to north with Cat. Another possible member of "her" staff that came with her could be Septa Mordane. After all there should have been 0 Septa in Winterfell until Cat came there. Besides she needed some reason to trust that Septa and IMHO most likely reason for that trust was that she knew M b4 she came to WF.

Or I assume that both Luwin and Septa Mordane came from Riverrun with Cat so that she would have some people she could trust and also give some means to House Tully to effect policies of WF.

[White Night]

2 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that Luwin served Riverrun and House Tully until he came to north with Cat. Another possible member of "her" staff that came with her could be Septa Mordane. After all there should have been 0 Septa in Winterfell until Cat came there. Besides she needed some reason to trust that Septa and IMHO most likely reason for that trust was that she knew M b4 she came to WF.

Luwin did not serve House Tully. Riverrun was served by maester Kym followed by maester Vyman. 

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, White Night said:

Luwin did not serve House Tully. Riverrun was served by maester Kym followed by maester Vyman. 

This is unclear.

We see on Dragonstone that a young maester can be sent to assist (and presumably be ready to replace) an old one.

We don't know when Kym died, he's only mentioned once.

It's possible Luwin was in Riverrun and accompanied Cat to Winterfell, to help care for her and the child, as well as to replace Master Walys (whose whereabouts and/or fate are unknown). Perhaps he was a younger maester serving at Riverrun at the time, and Vyman arrived only after the rebellion. Maybe both Luwin and Vyman were there.

There was also a war on when Luwin delivered Cat's baby, with a large gathering of lords (and presumably some maesters along side them) at Riverrun for the double wedding where Robb was conceived.

Long story short we don't know Luwins history or origin, but it does sound like he served house Tully when Cat gave birth to Cat.

[White Night]

12 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Long story short we don't know Luwins history or origin, but it does sound like he served house Tully when Cat gave birth to Cat.

As far as the information available, Luwin only served house Stark. His only connection to Riverrun that we are given was helping Lady Stark deliver the Stark heir in her father's seat. This is a reasonable explanation on why he first appeared in Riverrun and not in Winterfell.