No others no hand

[astarkchoice]

Lets say the white walkers decided to give it a other few decades and lysa accidentaly posions herself with the tears

Where so you see most of the main characters ending up? What woulld you have liked to happen for them?

Myself i see it going like

Starks=

Ned: if no mance rayder id ssy ned would have made good on his promise of resettling the gift, maybe fixed up the tower in winterfell too. Ramsays crimes probably would have filtered down to him thus roose probably would have handed the bastard to be decapitated or join the watch.

Cat:seemed set on on one more kid with old eddard, theres no tv in those days and the nights get cold so yeah probably would have 

Robb: married to a bannermans daughter most likely manderly.

Sansa: loved southern high society culture and already has the classic tully look ..married to a prominant vale lord ,riverlord or reach lords son..hell with jon arryn still alive it could very well be a younger harry the heir!

Arya: ned seemed willing to accomodate her tomboyish side but its not a culture that will allow her to not marry... thus fizing her up with a mormont boy, a reed  or some other crannogmen or even exotic ..a dornishmen so she could  hang out with and become an unoffical sand snake!

Bran: minus the fall his gift is probably not awakened, his love of climbing woulda made him a strong kid for  the watch (rangers based on jons pov  do climb a lot) or a lord on the resettled gift as a new stark cadet branch

Rickon: less wild little dude would probably be married off to a lesser vassal to create a stark cadet branch

Jon: ned would havve eventualy told him the truth , jon may still have joined the watch or ran off to travel the free cities

Lannister baratheons=

Robert: eventualy stannis and jon arryn(recently widowed)  confront robert with the book and a parade of black haired bastards. Cersei denies it but robert can read her like a book. Cersei is put on trial for execution but wont name the kids real  father, tywin shamed cuts all ties! Jamie resigns kingsguard in disgust...byt heads east  to be a sellsword as he cannot face his father either

With jon arryn in his ear robert spares the bastards but insists they be publicly named so and must take the surname hill! Sent to the westerlands tywin either kills or exiles them so they are outta sight outta mind. Margery is soon squirrelled into roberts bed by renly  and pops out legit heirs

Stannis: moves into positon as hand and varys and LF are either fired and/or killed asap.With mr strict as hand and the rich tyrells there the public debt is slowly turned into credit again ...esp as the  lannsiter debt is written off by robert

Tywin: minus jamie hel skip tyrion and name a nephew as heir! Tyrion will drink himself senseless or run abroad and find use at the ironbank.

Theon: returns home in time , when balon announces asha as heir both the damphir and vic object. Pushed too far theon challenges his dad and kills him with the skills hes learned from the 'weak starks' ..he pays the iron price for his crown  and has euron drowned when he returns.

 

Viserys and dany: with jon arryn there and all the comotion over the 3 kids being bastards  theres never an attempt on danys life. Viserys still goes and pushes his luck and is killed earlier. Dany after childbirth settles into life as a khalassi and follows drogo

Edited August 15, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

I like it overall!

Quote

Robb: married to a bannermans daughter most likely manderly.

Manderly would be a great choice. Karstark, Mormont, or even Reed would be good choices too. I could possibly even see him making an offer to Balon Greyjoy (not that he would accept.) Asha and Robb would get along. Or there's always Theon and Sansa.

Quote

Sansa: loved southern high society culture and already has the classic tully look ..married to a prominant vale lord ,riverlord or reach lords son..hell with jon arryn still alive it could very well be a younger harry the heir!

Idk. I think overall, Ned would prefer Northern alliances. Surprisingly, I don't see him marrying Sansa to Harry the Heir. I feel like House Royce would be a superior option. That's just my opinion though. Maybe he would marry her to a house in the Riverlands, but I don't see him going any more south than that (for any of his children.) Mallister or Blackwood are solid choices.

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Jon: ned would havve eventualy told him the truth , jon may still have joined the watch or ran off to travel the free cities

My vote goes to The Watch. I can't see him leaving Westeros. I can't even picture him leaving The North, but maybe I'm wrong.

Quote

Arya: ned seemed willing to accomodate her tomboyish side but its not a culture that will allow her to not marry... thus fizing her up with a mormont boy, a reed  or some other crannogmen or even exotic ..a dornishmen so she could  hang out with and become an unoffical sand snake!

She would do really really well with Mormont or Reed. She would shine in Dorne too, I just don't think Ned would opt to send her there.

Quote

With jon arryn in his ear robert spares the bastards but insists they be publicly named so and must take the surname hill! Sent to the westerlands tywin either kills or exiles them so they are outta sight outta mind. Margery is soon squirrelled into roberts bed by renly  and pops out legit heirs

Poor Marg 

Quote

Theon: returns home in time , when balon announces asha as heir both the damphir and vic object. Pushed too far theon challenges his dad and kills him with the skills hes learned from the 'weak starks' ..he pays the iron price for his crown  and has euron drowned when he returns.

Now, this I can absolutely get behind!

[CassDarry]

5 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Cersei denies it but robert can read her like a book. Cersei is put on trial for execution but wont name the kids real  father, tywin shamed cuts all ties! Jamie resigns kingsguard in disgust...byt heads east  to be a sellsword as he cannot face his father either

I always thought, she would demand trial by combat and name Jaime. If she legally can argue against the king then I don't think the king will call anyone who could beat Jaime (Barristan?)

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, CassDarry said:

I always thought, she would demand trial by combat and name Jaime. If she legally can argue against the king then I don't think the king will call anyone who could beat Jaime (Barristan?)

I think hed be too angry and hes enough of a warrior to know no one will beat the lannisters best (jamie and the clegane bros) so wouldnt allow a trial, barristan has no reason to risk his neck.

[Alester Florent]

19 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

I think hed be too angry and hes enough of a warrior to know no one will beat the lannisters best (jamie and the clegane bros) so wouldnt allow a trial, barristan has no reason to risk his neck.

The major risk is that Robert decides to fight Jaime himself, and loses. I don't think it's a done deal: even in his fat state Robert is still very strong, and in full plate armour he'll always have a puncher's chance against a swordsman even if the swordsman is better and fitter. But it's better for the loyalists that it doesn't come to that. Renly can probably come up with some workaround (can't have one traitor represented in trial by combat by another?) or if not, Jaime dies "resisting arrest". Then they play the same trick that Cersei used on Margaery saying that since she's a queen she can only be represented by one of the Kingsguard, preselect Barristan to represent the crown, and watch him go through Mandon Moore like he's carving a cake (yes, I know that's the show line, but I prefer it to the "dagger cutting cheese" from the books).

Or if they wanted to be real dicks about it, let her select Sandor Clegane, then declare that the precedent set by Aerys was that "fire is the crown's champion".

Anyway, the upshot of it all is that Bob goes on a regime of exercise and salads to look presentable for his new queen, rediscovers his youthful vigour, smashes Tywin when he objects, marries Margaery, restores Jalabar Xho to his throne in the Summer Isles, challenges Khal Drogo to single combat and defeats him, unifies the kingdom to defeat the threat of the Others, and then finally abdicates in favour of Renly, ushering in a new golden age of prosperity. Tyrion becomes lord of Casterly Rock but, not knowing the truth about Tysha and being of a now-disgraced house, has no children. Sansa marries Renly, and becomes the fairytale queen of her dreams. Stannis is killed during the battle against the Others so Renly makes a deal with Aegon where Aegon is made Lord of Dragonstone. Dany, with no dragons and no other prospects, marries Aegon.

On the death of the last legitimate Bolton (Roose), Robb (or Ned) grants the Dreadfort to Jon. Bran becomes a knight of the Kingsguard. In an act of generosity, King Renly legitimises Tommen (as son of Jaime), allowing him to become Lord of Casterly Rock following Tyrion's death.

Without Jon there to protect him, Sam dies at Castle Black, making the ending bittersweet as promised.

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

The major risk is that Robert decides to fight Jaime himself, and loses. I don't think it's a done deal: even in his fat state Robert is still very strong, and in full plate armour he'll always have a puncher's chance against a swordsman even if the swordsman is better and fitter. But it's better for the loyalists that it doesn't come to that. Renly can probably come up with some workaround (can't have one traitor represented in trial by combat by another?) or if not, Jaime dies "resisting arrest". Then they play the same trick that Cersei used on Margaery saying that since she's a queen she can only be represented by one of the Kingsguard, preselect Barristan to represent the crown, and watch him go through Mandon Moore like he's carving a cake (yes, I know that's the show line, but I prefer it to the "dagger cutting cheese" from the books).

Or if they wanted to be real dicks about it, let her select Sandor Clegane, then declare that the precedent set by Aerys was that "fire is the crown's champion".

Anyway, the upshot of it all is that Bob goes on a regime of exercise and salads to look presentable for his new queen, rediscovers his youthful vigour, smashes Tywin when he objects, marries Margaery, restores Jalabar Xho to his throne in the Summer Isles, challenges Khal Drogo to single combat and defeats him, unifies the kingdom to defeat the threat of the Others, and then finally abdicates in favour of Renly, ushering in a new golden age of prosperity. Tyrion becomes lord of Casterly Rock but, not knowing the truth about Tysha and being of a now-disgraced house, has no children. Sansa marries Renly, and becomes the fairytale queen of her dreams. Stannis is killed during the battle against the Others so Renly makes a deal with Aegon where Aegon is made Lord of Dragonstone. Dany, with no dragons and no other prospects, marries Aegon.

On the death of the last legitimate Bolton (Roose), Robb (or Ned) grants the Dreadfort to Jon. Bran becomes a knight of the Kingsguard. In an act of generosity, King Renly legitimises Tommen (as son of Jaime), allowing him to become Lord of Casterly Rock following Tyrion's death.

Without Jon there to protect him, Sam dies at Castle Black, making the ending bittersweet as promised.

Loving the faith  you place in bobby b.

Id say jamie mercs him with ease , hes too slow to get that one shot off unless he goes through a rocky montage and gets back into his old shape (with stannis of course as micky ) 

[Alester Florent]

7 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Loving the faith  you place in bobby b.

Id say jamie mercs him with ease , hes too slow to get that one shot off unless he goes through a rocky montage and gets back into his old shape (with stannis of course as micky ) 

Yeah, I think realistically Jaime is likely to win eight or nine times out of ten if he fights Bobby in his current shape. We know Jaime reckons he can beat men who are merely stronger than him. Robert was a terror in his youth though and while he's not as quick as he could be, he won't have lost it all either. Some training with Apollo Ned might help him to polish up those skills quite quickly: he won't be able to get fit in a matter of weeks of course but he can give his muscle memory a jog.

The fight might resemble in some respects something like a less extreme version of Oberyn v Gregor, or Bronn v Vardis: Jaime doesn't have the reach advantage that Oberyn had with his spear and he'll be decked out in full plate so less mobile (by AGoT logic) than Bronn, but he'd still certainly be quicker than Robert: we know he's frighteningly fast compared even to other fit swordsmen. And if he does disable Robert he's unlikely to make the same mistake that got Oberyn killed.

The problem Jaime has is that his longsword is not particularly effective against full plate armour: it won't (or at least shouldn't) penetrate the plate, so he has limited effective targets. If they trade blow for blow then Robert will win, because Jaime's blows will mostly glance off Bobby's armour while Robert's will probably do some damage with each hit. Historically, because of the relative inefficacy of swords against full plate, swordsmen in full plate tended to rely heavily on grappling, but that's something Jaime wants to avoid at almost all costs, since Robert will probably overpower him if he can actually lay hands on him.

[Nevets]

Arryn and Stannis have no proof of any misbehavior by Cersei.  There is also Tywin to consider.  He does not take slights against his family lying down, and definitely won't appreciate his daughter being accused of adultery and his grandchildren being branded as bastards.  He not only has the capacity to muster up an almighty large army, he's practically single-handedly funding the government.  They can't afford him as an enemy.

So the big question becomes, does Arryn tell Robert, and risk civil war and/or loss of substantial revenue. My guess is he keeps silent while Stannis grinds his teeth in frustration.  He may mollify Stannis by sending Robert Arryn to be fostered.

Without the Others, there likely won't be direwolf pups.  Whether or not there are would affect marriages, especially the girls'.  For Sansa, she would probably marry a Baratheon.  Joffrey is still a reasonable possibility; Renly is another one.  I think she would be better off with Renly.

Arya is hard to figure out where she goes.  Dorne is a possibility; Trystane Martell and Edric Dayne would both be good matches.  Ned could also arrange fosterage and marriage to a Northerner, and establish a cadet house to be in charge of the newly resettled gift.  Bran would be a possibility here as well.  There are lots of Mormont girls to choose from.

Robb's most likely match would be Wylla Manderly.  Margaery Tyrell would be a possibility if she was willing to come North, which is doubtful.  Jon I think stays in the Watch.  He was already interested, even before Robert's visit, so I don't see that changing.  Ned isn't likely to tell him about his mother.  Still too dangerous a secret.

Dany's story probably doesn't change.  However, if Westeros is stable, she will have no opportunity to do anything and likely remains in east Essos.

However, Varys is still plotting to put a Targaryen back on the throne, and who knows what Littlefinger will do.  So all hell will probably still break loose, just later than otherwise.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Nevets

[astarkchoice]

10 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Yeah, I think realistically Jaime is likely to win eight or nine times out of ten if he fights Bobby in his current shape. We know Jaime reckons he can beat men who are merely stronger than him. Robert was a terror in his youth though and while he's not as quick as he could be, he won't have lost it all either. Some training with Apollo Ned might help him to polish up those skills quite quickly: he won't be able to get fit in a matter of weeks of course but he can give his muscle memory a jog.

The fight might resemble in some respects something like a less extreme version of Oberyn v Gregor, or Bronn v Vardis: Jaime doesn't have the reach advantage that Oberyn had with his spear and he'll be decked out in full plate so less mobile (by AGoT logic) than Bronn, but he'd still certainly be quicker than Robert: we know he's frighteningly fast compared even to other fit swordsmen. And if he does disable Robert he's unlikely to make the same mistake that got Oberyn killed.

The problem Jaime has is that his longsword is not particularly effective against full plate armour: it won't (or at least shouldn't) penetrate the plate, so he has limited effective targets. If they trade blow for blow then Robert will win, because Jaime's blows will mostly glance off Bobby's armour while Robert's will probably do some damage with each hit. Historically, because of the relative inefficacy of swords against full plate, swordsmen in full plate tended to rely heavily on grappling, but that's something Jaime wants to avoid at almost all costs, since Robert will probably overpower him if he can actually lay hands on him.

 

The hammer and mace is better on horseback when you are close uo esp packed together with multiple horses in a packed melee.

One on one on the ground the longsword is just fine, it can be used to grapple as a lever (as we long+ quarter staffs were too) , it can be used to trip , it can be used to parry heavier weapons and simply  batter people senseless with srikes  !!! with the counterweight pommel is actualy capable of delivering a one hit kill on fully armoured knights!!  With half swording the blade can be used for armour killing like a stileteo blade into armour gaps and eye slits.

Grappling wise jamie is descrived as pretty strong himself, not hound prime robert or  gregor strong but hes no weakling either and will be a skilled grappler in his own right probably much nimbler on his feet to ensure he gets the takdown or even a shoulder shove/push from the side or behind the slightly bigger guy

The main issue will be shape ...bobby is heavy enough and has enough strenght to shove an off guard jamie off his feet but he lacks the cardio and muscle ensurance to survive even a very short fight,.unless hes secretly been training he wont have the same old strengtg without working at it thus hel need a smaller warhammer and of course as you say muscle memory for moves and instinct in sparring will be all off and need sharpening to elite levels.

Overall unless bobbby can get back to his old fitness hes deadmeat, jamie may be one of the most lethal knights in grmms world in any time, carving his way through robbs guard like that should be semi impossible with men in plate and mail. Even a young  prime bobby b is 50/50 vs this golden haired prick

[Lee-Sensei]

On 8/15/2023 at 7:05 AM, astarkchoice said:

Lets say the white walkers decided to give it a other few decades and lysa accidentaly posions herself with the tears

Where so you see most of the main characters ending up? What woulld you have liked to happen for them?

Myself i see it going like

Starks=

Ned: if no mance rayder id ssy ned would have made good on his promise of resettling the gift, maybe fixed up the tower in winterfell too. Ramsays crimes probably would have filtered down to him thus roose probably would have handed the bastard to be decapitated or join the watch.

Cat:seemed set on on one more kid with old eddard, theres no tv in those days and the nights get cold so yeah probably would have 

Robb: married to a bannermans daughter most likely manderly.

Sansa: loved southern high society culture and already has the classic tully look ..married to a prominant vale lord ,riverlord or reach lords son..hell with jon arryn still alive it could very well be a younger harry the heir!

Arya: ned seemed willing to accomodate her tomboyish side but its not a culture that will allow her to not marry... thus fizing her up with a mormont boy, a reed  or some other crannogmen or even exotic ..a dornishmen so she could  hang out with and become an unoffical sand snake!

Bran: minus the fall his gift is probably not awakened, his love of climbing woulda made him a strong kid for  the watch (rangers based on jons pov  do climb a lot) or a lord on the resettled gift as a new stark cadet branch

Rickon: less wild little dude would probably be married off to a lesser vassal to create a stark cadet branch

Jon: ned would havve eventualy told him the truth , jon may still have joined the watch or ran off to travel the free cities

Lannister baratheons=

Robert: eventualy stannis and jon arryn(recently widowed)  confront robert with the book and a parade of black haired bastards. Cersei denies it but robert can read her like a book. Cersei is put on trial for execution but wont name the kids real  father, tywin shamed cuts all ties! Jamie resigns kingsguard in disgust...byt heads east  to be a sellsword as he cannot face his father either

With jon arryn in his ear robert spares the bastards but insists they be publicly named so and must take the surname hill! Sent to the westerlands tywin either kills or exiles them so they are outta sight outta mind. Margery is soon squirrelled into roberts bed by renly  and pops out legit heirs

Stannis: moves into positon as hand and varys and LF are either fired and/or killed asap.With mr strict as hand and the rich tyrells there the public debt is slowly turned into credit again ...esp as the  lannsiter debt is written off by robert

Tywin: minus jamie hel skip tyrion and name a nephew as heir! Tyrion will drink himself senseless or run abroad and find use at the ironbank.

Theon: returns home in time , when balon announces asha as heir both the damphir and vic object. Pushed too far theon challenges his dad and kills him with the skills hes learned from the 'weak starks' ..he pays the iron price for his crown  and has euron drowned when he returns.

Viserys and dany: with jon arryn there and all the comotion over the 3 kids being bastards  theres never an attempt on danys life. Viserys still goes and pushes his luck and is killed earlier. Dany after childbirth settles into life as a khalassi and follows drogo

Why would Sansa marry Harry the Heir if Robert Arryn isn't killed off? In fact, if Lysa dies, Jon Arryn might be able to foster him away somewhere and toughen the kid up.

I don't think there's a chance of Jaime or Cersei living. Probably Tywin as well. There wouldn't be a trial. He'd just kill them. The kids might survive if Jon Arryn can get them away long enough for him to calm down. I doubt Robert would want to marry again though. He didn't want to get married the first time and Edric Storm is at Storms End. He's highborn on both sides and received a Prince's education and training, so he'd probably be legitimized.

Stannis would probably be the hand. Him or Renly. If it's Stannis thouugh, Vars and Littlefinger are out and possibly dead. I don't know what they'd do. I imagine they'd flee.

I can definitely see Tywin skipping Tyrion and making Kevan his heir.

Theon killing Balon wouldn't go over well at all. Even the ironborn don't like kinslayers. In any case, Theon's position as heir was mostly secure. The only real threat to it was Euron and he's in exile. And if Robert (and probably Ned) are alive with the kingdoms at peace, Balon wouldn't dare risk going to war with the Starks. Theon would probably marry a lady from one of the major Iron Islander houses to strengthen his support base.

Dany staying with Drogo is definitely a possibility. I'm not sure where her story would go without the assassination attempt tbh.

  

On 8/15/2023 at 7:53 PM, Nevets said:

Arryn and Stannis have no proof of any misbehavior by Cersei.  There is also Tywin to consider.  He does not take slights against his family lying down, and definitely won't appreciate his daughter being accused of adultery and his grandchildren being branded as bastards.  He not only has the capacity to muster up an almighty large army, he's practically single-handedly funding the government.  They can't afford him as an enemy.

So the big question becomes, does Arryn tell Robert, and risk civil war and/or loss of substantial revenue. My guess is he keeps silent while Stannis grinds his teeth in frustration.  He may mollify Stannis by sending Robert Arryn to be fostered.

Without the Others, there likely won't be direwolf pups.  Whether or not there are would affect marriages, especially the girls'.  For Sansa, she would probably marry a Baratheon.  Joffrey is still a reasonable possibility; Renly is another one.  I think she would be better off with Renly.

Arya is hard to figure out where she goes.  Dorne is a possibility; Trystane Martell and Edric Dayne would both be good matches.  Ned could also arrange fosterage and marriage to a Northerner, and establish a cadet house to be in charge of the newly resettled gift.  Bran would be a possibility here as well.  There are lots of Mormont girls to choose from.

Robb's most likely match would be Wylla Manderly.  Margaery Tyrell would be a possibility if she was willing to come North, which is doubtful.  Jon I think stays in the Watch.  He was already interested, even before Robert's visit, so I don't see that changing.  Ned isn't likely to tell him about his mother.  Still too dangerous a secret.

Dany's story probably doesn't change.  However, if Westeros is stable, she will have no opportunity to do anything and likely remains in east Essos.

However, Varys is still plotting to put a Targaryen back on the throne, and who knows what Littlefinger will do.  So all hell will probably still break loose, just later than otherwise.

There's not a chance that Jon Arryn and Stannis keep quiet indefinitely about the affair, which is why people started moving against them. Brienne put two and two together. If Robert knows Jaime and Cersei were banging and he knows what her kids look like and what everyone in his family looks like including his bastard children, it's not at all a far leap for them to come to the conclusion that it's a case of paternity fraud. And when that happens at a bare minimum 5 out of the 9 regions will be united against him. The North, the Riverlands, the Crownlands, the Stormlands and the Reach. The Lannisters would be slaughtered.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Alester Florent]

10 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

 

Stannis would probably be the hand. Him or Renly. If it's Stannis thouugh, Vars and Littlefinger are out and possibly dead. I don't know what they'd do. I imagine they'd flee.

 

I can't imagine Robert making Stannis Hand. If Jon wasn't available, it was always going to be Ned. Remember that when Jon died, Bob had no reason to think that was suspicious and didn't realise there was a state of emergency. He chose Ned because he trusted him implicitly and thought he was the best man for the job; no reason to believe his mind would change on that. 

In due course, he might conceivably appoint Renly, but only I think if Ned resigned and recommended Renly for the job.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

I can't imagine Robert making Stannis Hand. If Jon wasn't available, it was always going to be Ned. Remember that when Jon died, Bob had no reason to think that was suspicious and didn't realise there was a state of emergency. He chose Ned because he trusted him implicitly and thought he was the best man for the job; no reason to believe his mind would change on that. 

In due course, he might conceivably appoint Renly, but only I think if Ned resigned and recommended Renly for the job.

I agree that Ned would come first. I was assuming that Ned would steadfastly refuse without Lysa Arryn prodding him to come south and investigate Jon Arryns murder. In that case, the most likely next options are Stannis and Renly.

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I agree that Ned would come first. I was assuming that Ned would steadfastly refuse without Lysa Arryn prodding him to come south and investigate Jon Arryns murder. In that case, the most likely next options are Stannis and Renly.

Ah, I see. That makes sense. Even then, though, I just can't see Robert ever appointing Stannis as his Hand. I know Stannis thinks he ought to have the job, and Stannis's fans think he'd be great at it, which has led to the idea attaining a kind of currency, but I just can't see the two of them working together effectively. The principle of "the King dreams, and the Hand builds" requires them both to be on roughly the same page and from what we see of them their values and interests are almost diametrically opposed. It also requires the Hand and the King to have at the very least a good working relationship if not a close personal one, and Robert and Stannis just don't.

Robert's court is, at least on the surface, a kind of "Merrie Westeros", and Stannis is the antithesis of that not just in his personal habits but in his beliefs about what everyone else should do. He's a fine Master of Ships but I wouldn't let him anywhere near Master of Laws or the Handship, no matter who was on the Iron Throne.

Renly is certainly a prospect, as a kind of mini-Robert but potentially with a bit more application to the details of ruling. Potentially. But he's young, and Robert might think him a bit frivolous, instead instead dredging up some other lord he thinks is loyal and capable who hasn't had a prominent role in the books: Lord Estermont, Lord Swann, Lord Wylde, Lord Caron even.

[astarkchoice]

6 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Why would Sansa marry Harry the Heir if Robert Arryn isn't killed off? In fact, if Lysa dies, Jon Arryn might be able to foster him away somewhere and toughen the kid up.

I don't think there's a chance of Jaime or Cersei living. Probably Tywin as well. There wouldn't be a trial. He'd just kill them. The kids might survive if Jon Arryn can get them away long enough for him to calm down. I doubt Robert would want to marry again though. He didn't want to get married the first time and Edric Storm is at Storms End. He's highborn on both sides and received a Prince's education and training, so he'd probably be legitimized.

Stannis would probably be the hand. Him or Renly. If it's Stannis thouugh, Vars and Littlefinger are out and possibly dead. I don't know what they'd do. I imagine they'd flee.

I can definitely see Tywin skipping Tyrion and making Kevan his heir.

Theon killing Balon wouldn't go over well at all. Even the ironborn don't like kinslayers. In any case, Theon's position as heir was mostly secure. The only real threat to it was Euron and he's in exile. And if Robert (and probably Ned) are alive with the kingdoms at peace, Balon wouldn't dare risk going to war with the Starks. Theon would probably marry a lady from one of the major Iron Islander houses to strengthen his support base.

Dany staying with Drogo is definitely a possibility. I'm not sure where her story would go without the assassination attempt tbh.

  

Jon arryn is an old man who knows ned and if lil.robert doesnt reach adulthood harry is the ruler of the vale (lil robert  is described as mentaly abbormal too..if this cant be fixed i can see jon arryn having him passed over to protect his house)  ....and if not hes still an excellent catch esp as another great house of the vale has virtualy adopted him!

Tywin would.be safe enough as casterly rock ,the twins less so! Robeet might not wanna marry again but between stannis and jon arryn nagging him that he needs to and the him being a horn dawg and seeing fair margery itl soon work itself out.

Yeah lf would flee to the vale and vary probably back to essos, of he cant prep westeros for young griff as hand of the king i can see him.trying to spread his web to manipulate a power like volantis to help the golden company!

Yeah tywin would pressure jamie but of hes dead, kevan is too old and his sons too young or too' lancelish '  to.rule....everyone seems to hold devan on high regard hed probably get the nod.

Its hard to say !.if balon and asha keep picking on theon hes no craven as cleftjaw saysso somethings gotta give

Dany goes onto  be a trophy wife khalassi

Edited August 17, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Alester Florent]

I don't think there's much actually wrong with Sweetrobin that can't be cured by getting him away from his wretched mother, and the sooner the better. She seems determined to prevent him from developing out of infancy both mentally and physically. Give him a proper diet, some exercise, and some actual mental stimulation and he'll probably come on leaps and bounds. Either Stannis or Tywin would probably actually have done a decent job with him if they can keep patience, especially given at Dragonstone he'd have Shireen to help encourage him, and at Casterly Rock Tyrion would probably take an interest. Even so, perhaps the more gentle approach of a Ned might be more effective... but really nobody in Westeros could do much worse than Lysa. I feel like even Balon could have made something of him.

Yes, he has something that may well be epilepsy, but that is manageable and need not prevent him living a long and relatively healthy life, even in Westeros.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Lee-Sensei]

7 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Ah, I see. That makes sense. Even then, though, I just can't see Robert ever appointing Stannis as his Hand. I know Stannis thinks he ought to have the job, and Stannis's fans think he'd be great at it, which has led to the idea attaining a kind of currency, but I just can't see the two of them working together effectively. The principle of "the King dreams, and the Hand builds" requires them both to be on roughly the same page and from what we see of them their values and interests are almost diametrically opposed. It also requires the Hand and the King to have at the very least a good working relationship if not a close personal one, and Robert and Stannis just don't.

Robert's court is, at least on the surface, a kind of "Merrie Westeros", and Stannis is the antithesis of that not just in his personal habits but in his beliefs about what everyone else should do. He's a fine Master of Ships but I wouldn't let him anywhere near Master of Laws or the Handship, no matter who was on the Iron Throne.

Renly is certainly a prospect, as a kind of mini-Robert but potentially with a bit more application to the details of ruling. Potentially. But he's young, and Robert might think him a bit frivolous, instead instead dredging up some other lord he thinks is loyal and capable who hasn't had a prominent role in the books: Lord Estermont, Lord Swann, Lord Wylde, Lord Caron even.

I think that's possible, but I still think his brothers are more likely to be appointed to the position. George described Robert as "fond" of Renly, although they weren't close. He didn't necessarily like Stannis, but he "loved" them both and was dutiful towards them. Robert was closer to Jon and Ned than his siblings, but his brothers were the next step down. He was close to his bannermen though and Lord Estermont is a relative, so they're possible too though.

 

5 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Jon arryn is an old man who knows ned and if lil.robert doesnt reach adulthood harry is the ruler of the vale (lil robert  is described as mentaly abbormal too..if this cant be fixed i can see jon arryn having him passed over to protect his house)  ....and if not hes still an excellent catch esp as another great house of the vale has virtualy adopted him!

Tywin would.be safe enough as casterly rock ,the twins less so! Robeet might not wanna marry again but between stannis and jon arryn nagging him that he needs to and the him being a horn dawg and seeing fair margery itl soon work itself out.

Yeah lf would flee to the vale and vary probably back to essos, of he cant prep westeros for young griff as hand of the king i can see him.trying to spread his web to manipulate a power like volantis to help the golden company!

Yeah tywin would pressure jamie but of hes dead, kevan is too old and his sons too young or too' lancelish '  to.rule....everyone seems to hold devan on high regard hed probably get the nod.

Its hard to say !.if balon and asha keep picking on theon hes no craven as cleftjaw saysso somethings gotta give

Dany goes onto  be a trophy wife khalassi

I don't think there's anything mentally wrong with Robert Arryn. If nothing else, he seems to be a good judge of character. Lysa just coddled him so he's weak and immature. He needs to be toughened up. Fostering would help or maybe Jon Arryn could reign his son in once Lysa's out of the picture. Stannis, Yohn Royce or heck.... even Tywin or Walder Frey would be better for the kid than Lysa.

I don't think so at all tbh. Robert doesn't need to. He already has a recognized bastard that's high born on both sides and receiving a noble education. I'm pretty confident that he'd just legitimize Edric. He can get sex anywhere. I do think Margaery would make him better. She's a very supportive person, but I really don't see him getting married again after what Cersei did to him and his family. I could see Edric marrying Margaery though.

Yeah. Varys is definitely going to be a problem moving forward.

I don't think Lancel would be passed over. There isn't much wrong with Lancel tbh and he's Kevan's eldest son. Even if Devan would make a stronger lord, I don't think he'd muscle Lancel out.

Balon and Asha? Yes. But that was them specifically. Theon's problem when he returns was partially that Balon, Asha and to an extent Aeron had made him feel replaced and that people weren't worshiping him. The show made it look like Theon was considered a joke on the islands, but feelings in the book were much more lukewarm. If Theon returns, he'd inherit without issue. The kingsmoot only happened, because Asha was believed to be Balon's only living heir and the ironborn wouldn't accept a woman ruling them in her own right.

Yeah. Probably.

 

[Alester Florent]

15 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I don't think Lancel would be passed over. There isn't much wrong with Lancel tbh and he's Kevan's eldest son. Even if Devan would make a stronger lord, I don't think he'd muscle Lancel out.

Yeah, Lancel would be fine if Cersei and Blackwater hadn't messed him up. In the scenario we're talking about, Martyn is also still alive, and Tyrek wouldn't have gone missing. Willem is still around, of course, as is Janei. Daven is actually a relatively a long way down the order of Lannister succession; Cersei promotes him to spite Kevan more than anything, and usurping titles from those above you in the line of succession is not common. I could see Daven claiming Casterly Rock over the heads of Genna's Frey kids, but not muscling out Kevan's or Tyg's legitimate children.

And no reason why Kevan should be considered "too old" in any case. He's younger than Tywin. Even if he doesn't rule for long, that's the system. Younger Brothers succeeding elder brothers is entirely normal in Westeros.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Lee-Sensei]

52 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Yeah, Lancel would be fine if Cersei and Blackwater hadn't messed him up. In the scenario we're talking about, Martyn is also still alive, and Tyrek wouldn't have gone missing. Willem is still around, of course, as is Janei. Daven is actually a relatively a long way down the order of Lannister succession; Cersei promotes him to spite Kevan more than anything, and usurping titles from those above you in the line of succession is not common. I could see Daven claiming Casterly Rock over the heads of Genna's Frey kids, but not muscling out Kevan's or Tyg's legitimate children.

And no reason why Kevan should be considered "too old" in any case. He's younger than Tywin. Even if he doesn't rule for long, that's the system. Younger Brothers succeeding elder brothers is entirely normal in Westeros.

I can see Kevan muscling out Emmon Frey. That guys a weakling. But Genna is much more formidable and she does seem to love her children. I wonder if she'd really allow it. Daven also seems to be a team player that recognizes his position in the family.

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I can see Kevan muscling out Emmon Frey. That guys a weakling. But Genna is much more formidable and she does seem to love her children. I wonder if she'd really allow it. Daven also seems to be a team player that recognizes his position in the family.

I could see Genna insisting that her kids take the Lannister name if they're going to inherit Casterly Rock, mind. That's probably what a lot of it would turn on.

Thinking about Tyrion, though... Tywin might want to cut him out of the succession, but it's unlikely Tyrion would take that lying down. He could well appeal to Bob, who is unlikely to miss an opportunity to piss Tywin off - especially under the circumstances of the thread - and would likely reinstate Tyrion as heir, then laugh his head off.

[Lee-Sensei]

18 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I could see Genna insisting that her kids take the Lannister name if they're going to inherit Casterly Rock, mind. That's probably what a lot of it would turn on.

Thinking about Tyrion, though... Tywin might want to cut him out of the succession, but it's unlikely Tyrion would take that lying down. He could well appeal to Bob, who is unlikely to miss an opportunity to piss Tywin off - especially under the circumstances of the thread - and would likely reinstate Tyrion as heir, then laugh his head off.

Oh, definitely. There's no question. It's not going to be the Freys of Casterly Rock. Heck, Genna already wears the pants in that relationship. Just like Joffrey Lydden.

I can definitely see Robert supporting Tyrion as the heir, but doing it while Tywin lives would be a headache. If Robert finds out about the incest babies, Tywin is likely to die though. In that scenario, I can see Tyrion being made the Lord of Casterly Rock. I don't even know that his uncles and aunt would oppose him in this. The only Lannisters that seemed to hate him were Tywin, Cersei and maybe Lancel.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Lee-Sensei