Ultimate Death Toll Rankings

[Alester Florent]

31 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't see anything here which indicated that they were anything worse than regular mercenaries. Just plundering (which was officially banned). None of this suggests to me that they are as bad as the Bloody Mummers. I don't think mercenaries with a good reputation for being disciplined would be like the Bloody Mummers.

That was my impression too. Indeed, if plunder was officially banned (even if a regulation more honoured in the breach, etc.) that probably means they were less destructive to their environment than typical mercenaries, indeed probably no worse, and possibly better than, regular troops.

I'm reminded of the reaction to Prince Rupert in the early stages of the English Civil War: in both cases, experienced (and as it happens, German) soldiers arrive in an environment utterly unused to warfare and behave in a pretty standard manner, which spawns a black legend accusing them of particular and deliberate atrocity, which in turn gets absorbed into popular culture and is repeated uncritically for centuries. In both cases it no doubt helps that the perpetrators were foreign and therefore immune from the kind of blind eye that one might turn to "our boys". In Rupert's case, more sober analysis suggests that the actions in question were (a) entirely within the norm for warfare of the period, (b) blamed disproportionately on Rupert, i.e. the foreigner, rather than his troops* and (c) in any case exaggerated by enemy propagandists. I would be entirely unsurprised if the same went for the Hessians.

There is often an element of hypocrisy on the part of the propagandists, too: even if Rupert's pillaging of Birmingham was the first major such incident of the war, Parliament soon caught up, and indeed the atrocities of the Civil Wars (etc.) that stick in the popular memory are now largely on the anti-royalist side, particularly in Ireland. In the US, I struggle to imagine that anything the Hessians did was notably worse than some of what was meted out to native Americans, both before and after the War of Independence.

That the Lannisters are plundering the Riverlands generally - a region reasonably familiar with war, having seen action relatively recently in Robert's Rebellion - but the Bloody Mummers (and the Mountain's Men) are singled out as particularly bad suggests that they go above and beyond what is normally expected.

 

*Rupert is for whatever reason generally blamed in popular perception for the transgressions (both on the field and off) for his men despite evidence suggesting that this was in spite of him rather than because of it. He was generally a rather cautious commander who, for instance, at Edgehill, deployed only a portion of his cavalry to drive off the Parliamentarian wing (with a subcommander ignoring orders and making a redundant general charge in support) and subsequently, aware of the need to support the royalist infantry, made great efforts to try to regroup his men while they charged off to plunder the baggage train. But again in popular portrayals he is a reckless, irresponsible hothead who might as well have led his cavalry off the field at every engagement.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Alester Florent

[SeanF]

35 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't see anything here which indicated that they were anything worse than regular mercenaries. Just plundering (which was officially banned). None of this suggests to me that they are as bad as the Bloody Mummers. I don't think mercenaries with a good reputation for being disciplined would be like the Bloody Mummers.

If you'll forgive me, I'm afraid I can't accept that as fact without a source; since I have read what happened was exaggerated/distorted for propaganda efforts I want to be careful.

The Bloody Mummers are just a bunch of psychopaths, not at all typical of soldiers of fortune.  They resemble Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger, or the Ustase, more than the Hessians or King’s German Legion.

War is just an excuse for their favourite pastimes, murder, rape, and torture.

[Hugorfonics]

35 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't see anything here which indicated that they were anything worse than regular mercenaries. Just plundering (which was officially banned). None of this suggests to me that they are as bad as the Bloody Mummers. I don't think mercenaries with a good reputation for being disciplined would be like the Bloody Mummers.

I'll try to find more stuff, I'm pretty interested, but maybe like a week or something. I may have to books but hopefully I can find a ulr or whatever.

35 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If you'll forgive me, I'm afraid I can't accept that as fact without a source; since I have read what happened was exaggerated/distorted for propaganda efforts I want to be careful.

Ooh, citation? I'd love to look at that too.

 

15 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

That was my impression too. Indeed, if plunder was officially banned (even if a regulation more honoured in the breach, etc.) that probably means they were less destructive to their environment than typical mercenaries, indeed probably no worse, and possibly better than, regular troops.

I assume plunder was banned for all these sellswords, but, probably for all of em too, Hessians were paid next to nothing and had to find means of survival/wealth which I'm assuming is not the case for the rank and file. 

Like contemporary, or a month ago, Russian troops are bad Wagner are worse (maybe?)

19 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

In the US, I struggle to imagine that anything the Hessians did was notably worse than some of what was meted out to native Americans, both before and after the War of Independence.

Or during, there were plenty of Indian massacres during the revolution too. But that's just whataboutism, Karstarks brutality doesn't cancel Vargos.

 

22 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

That the Lannisters are plundering the Riverlands generally - a region reasonably familiar with war, having seen action relatively recently in Robert's Rebellion - but the Bloody Mummers (and the Mountain's Men) are singled out as particularly bad suggests that they go above and beyond what is normally expected.

They're forigen too. Not "our boys". Harrenhal was not a death camp, the camps pre Harrenhal were almost that horrendous but that was Gregor. Vargos not actually chopping off everyones leg, that's just a wildly inflated rumor. So, maybe there's some of this too

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I'll try to find more stuff, I'm pretty interested, but maybe like a week or something. I may have to books but hopefully I can find a ulr or whatever.

Ooh, citation? I'd love to look at that too.

 

I assume plunder was banned for all these sellswords, but, probably for all of em too, Hessians were paid next to nothing and had to find means of survival/wealth which I'm assuming is not the case for the rank and file. 

Like contemporary, or a month ago, Russian troops are bad Wagner are worse (maybe?)

Or during, there were plenty of Indian massacres during the revolution too. But that's just whataboutism, Karstarks brutality doesn't cancel Vargos.

 

They're forigen too. Not "our boys". Harrenhal was not a death camp, the camps pre Harrenhal were almost that horrendous but that was Gregor. Vargos not actually chopping off everyones leg, that's just a wildly inflated rumor. So, maybe there's some of this too

But, we see people like Hoat, Urswyck, Shagwell & co., up close, and they are complete scum, even by contemporary standards.

[Craving Peaches]

38 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ooh, citation? I'd love to look at that too.

Out for lunch, will have a look for you when I get back.

[Hugorfonics]

35 minutes ago, SeanF said:

But, we see people like Hoat, Urswyck, Shagwell & co., up close, and they are complete scum, even by contemporary standards.

Worse then Gregor and co? Or Karstarks men? (who we don't get a close look at but see them being punished by Robb and the mad huntsman)

Maybe worse but like, it's hard to get past level 10

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Out for lunch, will have a look for you when I get back.

No rush. American football starts today so I'ma be tving it pretty soon anyway 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Hugorfonics

[Wolf's Bane]

The one person who caused the most death is Ned Stark.  He could have supported Joffrey and proclaimed the boy king.  Renly and Stannis would have very little grounds to put their claim forward.  Robb Stark and Balon Greyjoy chose to war over peace.  As a result many innocent people died. Not just soldiers but women, children, the old.  Farmlands and livestock were destroyed.  I would give Walder Frey a position lower on the list because the casualties in the red wedding were all soldiers and fighting men by far.  He stopped the Starks from causing further harm to the people of the River Lands. 

Mance Rayder and Jon Snow are near the top of this list of shame.  The death toll at the Wall from the battle is very high.  And it was all for nothing because Mance Rayder got what he wanted in the end.  Jon defended the wall and got many of his Crows killed.  It was a tragic waste because the Wildlings came through.  It was a useless battle. 

Daenerys is fighting a war to end slavery.  The not so wise masters chose to fight instead of accepting the end of slavery.  I blame them for all of the casualties in Slaver's Bay. 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

The one person who caused the most death is Ned Stark.  He could have supported Joffrey and proclaimed the boy king.  Renly and Stannis would have very little grounds to put their claim forward.  Robb Stark and Balon Greyjoy chose to war over peace.  As a result many innocent people died. Not just soldiers but women, children, the old.  Farmlands and livestock were destroyed.  I would give Walder Frey a position lower on the list because the casualties in the red wedding were all soldiers and fighting men by far.  He stopped the Starks from causing further harm to the people of the River Lands. 

Mance Rayder and Jon Snow are near the top of this list of shame.  The death toll at the Wall from the battle is very high.  And it was all for nothing because Mance Rayder got what he wanted in the end.  Jon defended the wall and got many of his Crows killed.  It was a tragic waste because the Wildlings came through.  It was a useless battle. 

Daenerys is fighting a war to end slavery.  The not so wise masters chose to fight instead of accepting the end of slavery.  I blame them for all of the casualties in Slaver's Bay. 

Nice parody.

[Alester Florent]

Deaths by character:

• Stannis: 50,000 approx.
• Cersei and Tywin: 200,000 approx.
• Balon: Let's say 50,000
• Renly: Probably about 50,000
• Walder Frey: zero
• Boltons: zero
• Drogo: zero
• Daenerys: Minus 200,000 because of all the people she liberated by killing the masters
• The Starks: Eight hundred million billion

NB All figures are approximate and may or may not bear any relationship with the text or any other reality.

[Craving Peaches]

9 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

The Starks: Eight hundred million billion

This looks a little low to me. Are you sure you didn't mean a thousand billion trillion? Remember, you have to factor in all those in parallel universes who die as a result of the Starks too.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[SeanF]

Most deaths of non-combatants  in TWOT5K can be pinned on the Lannisters.  They threw the first punches, started the invasion of the Riverlands, and resorted to total war very quickly.  They pillaged extensively, both to supply their own armies, and to deprive their enemies of supplies.  And, as Tywin's and Kevan's conversation at the end of AGOT shows, they were willing to use murder, arson, and rape, as deliberate terror tactics.

Most, but not all.  Everybody pillaged, and the Riverlords hanged suspected collaborators.

Deaths from starvation or disease in Kings Landing were likely in the tens of thousands, given that refugees fled into the city.  The Tyrells are to blame for those deaths.  Cutting the supply of food, combined with an increase in demand would have sent prices soaring. Although we aren't given base figures for prices of food, it's clear from Tyrion's POV that food prices are now well above normal, and of course, there's the bread riot.

Robb's army pillaged the West, and probably did worse than pillage, given the reference to "paying back in kind."  OTOH, there were only 6,000 of them, and the raid only lasted a few weeks.  35,000 Lannister soldiers were in the Riverlands for months.

I could envisage the Lannisters as holding principal moral responsibility for 75% of civilian deaths.

Edited September 11, 2023 by SeanF

[Craving Peaches]

22 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

No rush. American football starts today so I'ma be tving it pretty soon anyway 

This article seems to mention what I was getting at:

Why Germans Fought in the Revolutionary War—for the British | HISTORY

[Hugorfonics]

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

This article seems to mention what I was getting at:

Why Germans Fought in the Revolutionary War—for the British | HISTORY

I don't see much in them being like not mercenaries here (plus it's history channel which is the home of ancient aliens and therefore I'm kinda dubious lol)

That one quote from the author though

.

“The Germans quickly concluded that the Americans were ungrateful,” says Baer. “Since everyone was doing so well, why the heck were they rebelling? Why would you rise up against a king under whose rule you were able to grow so prosperous?”“The Germans quickly concluded that the Americans were ungrateful,” says Baer. “Since everyone was doing so well, why the heck were they rebelling? Why would you rise up against a king under whose rule you were able to grow so prosperous?”

.

Mixed with the fact that they hardly got paid anything, I think plunder was definitely a thing.

I found a quote by Aaron Burr( "Various have been the reports concerning the barbarities committed by the Hessians, most of them [are] incredible and false." (Matthew Davis, Memoirs of Aaron Burr, Vol 1. p. 107).)

So that looks good for them, but like the history channel this an Aaron Burr quote who was a liar and a traitor who wanted to be like king of Kansas or whatever lol

[Craving Peaches]

47 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't see much in them being like not mercenaries here

Well, no one is claiming that they are not mercenaries, just that what they are doing is standard mercenary stuff rather than being on the level of the bloody mummers, and that what they did do was exaggerated and they were demonised for propaganda, which I think that shows.

48 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

(plus it's history channel which is the home of ancient aliens and therefore I'm kinda dubious lol)

I can find more. But that article was backed up by other sources so I don't see why it wouldn't be reliable.

[csuszka1948]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

This looks a little low to me. Are you sure you didn't mean a thousand billion trillion? Remember, you have to factor in all those in parallel universe who die as a result of the Starks too.

 

I think it's realistic, if you count the deaths they will cause by allowing the Others in.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, csuszka1948 said:

I think it's realistic, if you count the deaths they will cause by allowing the Others in.

But you have to remember Arya the Psycho also wants to blow up King's Landing and probably other cities too.

[csuszka1948]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But you have to remember Arya the Psycho also wants to blow up King's Landing and probably other cities too.

 

 

 

Oh, I have forgotten about it, because it makes so little sense. 

However, it's pointless to factor it in when the Others will kill everyone anyways.

You are right, I should have factored it in. I have forgotten that Dany will save humanity from the Others and get rid of the Starks.

Edited September 11, 2023 by csuszka1948

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well, no one is claiming that they are not mercenaries, just that what they are doing is standard mercenary stuff rather than being on the level of the bloody mummers

Foraging for food requires Bloody Mummer methods usually 

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

and that what they did do was exaggerated and they were demonised for propaganda, which I think that shows.

Exaggerated perhaps, demonized it's already rape and murder.

That plundering was a regular thing I think I've shown plenty of evidence for though

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I can find more. But that article was backed up by other sources so I don't see why it wouldn't be reliable.

Backed by some lady who wrote a book, I just watched a YouTube video where she talked about it for an hour. Interesting stuff but told through their perspective so not much on the guilty of rape and murder parts. (Although she does talk a tiny bit about them being foargers and pillagers)

I agree they probably werent that much worse then the rank and file but they were really bad too, so I still think comparisons between the wars aren't bad. Better then the 30 years at least which was backed with a religious affair 

[Alester Florent]

9 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

Oh, I have forgotten about it, because it makes so little sense. 

However, it's pointless to factor it in when the Others will kill everyone anyways.

You are right, I should have factored it in. I have forgotten that Dany will save humanity from the Others and get rid of the Starks.

There are also all the people the Starks have sacrificed to trees over the years and the ones they've eaten and the ravaging of Andalos under Theon Stark, all of which the current Starks obviously bear full responsibility for since they are all skinchanger weirwood insane psychopaths who have inherited the guilt of their ancestors. Combined, that must run into the hundreds of billions at minimum.

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Foraging for food requires Bloody Mummer methods usually 

Exaggerated perhaps, demonized it's already rape and murder.

That plundering was a regular thing I think I've shown plenty of evidence for though

Backed by some lady who wrote a book, I just watched a YouTube video where she talked about it for an hour. Interesting stuff but told through their perspective so not much on the guilty of rape and murder parts. (Although she does talk a tiny bit about them being foargers and pillagers)

I agree they probably werent that much worse then the rank and file but they were really bad too, so I still think comparisons between the wars aren't bad. Better then the 30 years at least which was backed with a religious affair 

No.  Foraging for food means seizing supplies, and killing those who resist.  But most people don’t resist, because it would be pointless. 

The Bloody Mummers and Ser Gregor’s men murder, rape, and torture for the fun of it.  They pillage, in addition to those pastimes.  Even among hard cases, gnawing off a septa’s tits, and gang-raping an innkeep’s daughter, in peacetime, is abnormal.

Edited September 11, 2023 by SeanF