Bastards, Distanced Relatives, and Non-genetically Related Heirs

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

11 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

"I gave you my maiden's gift. I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal. It wasn't me, I never knew, I only drank what Father gave me..."

If there was even a chance of LF being Robert's father, she'd have almost certainly have said it.

To counter this, I distinctly remember Lysa talking about being overly loud after getting married because they finally didn’t have to be quiet about their lovemaking (which I think implies rjey spent a considerable time having to be quiet…ie while sleeping together in King’s Landing under Jon Arryn’s nose). I think there is plenty of reason to believe Lysa and Petyr will sleeping together during Jon Arryn’s handship. And when u sleep with people, you sometimes have children. Lysa could believe Robert is Jon Arryn’s…and be wrong. Example if Petyr Baelish is always pulling out (sorry to be graphic). Although pulling out significantly reduces the chance of pregnancy, it does not eliminate it. 

I think it’s also important to note that unlike Cersei, Lysa attaches a lot of importance to Robert being an Arryn. She herself seems to tKe some pride in being an Arryn. I think you have to think about the character and how she sees both herself and Robert…amd there are plenty of reasons for her to actively want Robert to be an Arryn and not a bastard. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Lord of Raventree Hall

[Lee-Sensei]

6 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Valid point, but on the other hand GRRM likes to reveal things when he is ready. That quote leaves plenty of room for a later reveal. For one thing, Robert is officially Jon Arryn's son, not openly Littlefinger's as Lysa's first pregnancy would have produced. So failing to mention it there could just as easily be related to the question of legitimacy. For the first child she clearly intended to force her father to allow a marriage, and a secret child officially someone else's is a different thing.

Basically, I see your point, but that quote is talking about that one pregnancy, not necessarily about all pregnancies, so it does not entirely rule out the possibility.

Why do you think she'd lie about that while spilling all of her secrets during her final moments spiral?

@Lord of Raventree Hall Whispers and promises. LF was a tease. They weren't sleeping together. I really don't think there are a lot of reason to think they were sleeping together. LF doesn't like Lysa and sleeping with the Hand's wife could mean death. Varys would have certainly known about it. One word from him and Baelish's head would have been on a spike.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Hippocras]

44 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Why do you think she'd lie about that while spilling all of her secrets during her final moments spiral?

It is not a lie to say nothing about something. I am not even sure it really fits to say something in that context even if she did know (as LoRH pointed out she may not know). She was talking about their first time together and how long she had desired him. She was not talking about the years in between. The pregnancy only was relevant in the context of the fact that it resulted from the night she lost her virginity, and shortly after that.

 

Your point is well taken about Varys's spies, but LF had ways to hide even from Varys, and Varys doesn't always do what one might expect with what he knows. Varys had less sway in the Vale, and she shared her time between the two places clearly, since we know that some of her miscarriages and stillbirths happened there.

Littlefinger was based in Gulltown controlling customs from around 289 until Jon Arryn brought him to KL, year unknown. Then he was in KL for 3 years before being named master of coin. Until he joined the small council, which was certainly later than 292 when Robert Arryn was born, he was simply a member of Jon Arryn's household, much less a target of Varys's spy network than he eventually became. Varys can't be expected to closely watch every lower-ranked member of every household in KL.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Hippocras

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

26 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Why do you think she'd lie about that while spilling all of her secrets during her final moments spiral?

@Lord of Raventree Hall Whispers and promises. LF was a tease. They weren't sleeping together. I really don't think there are a lot of reason to think they were sleeping together. LF doesn't like Lysa and sleeping with the Hand's wife could mean death. Varys would have certainly known about it. One word from him and Baelish's head would have been on a spike.

LF being a tease actually matches his personality, lol. However, I still think there are some random hints that suggest Robert could be LF's child despite the fact that tease thing sounds like him. 

[Hippocras]

14 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

LF being a tease actually matches his personality, lol. However, I still think there are some random hints that suggest Robert could be LF's child despite the fact that tease thing sounds like him. 

Yes, like for example all the favours that Lysa did for him. His financial career was her doing. He probably slept with her whenever he wanted something from her.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 11/15/2023 at 7:58 AM, Hippocras said:

It is not a lie to say nothing about something. I am not even sure it really fits to say something in that context even if she did know (as LoRH pointed out she may not know). She was talking about their first time together and how long she had desired him. She was not talking about the years in between. The pregnancy only was relevant in the context of the fact that it resulted from the night she lost her virginity, and shortly after that.

 

Your point is well taken about Varys's spies, but LF had ways to hide even from Varys, and Varys doesn't always do what one might expect with what he knows. Varys had less sway in the Vale, and she shared her time between the two places clearly, since we know that some of her miscarriages and stillbirths happened there.

Littlefinger was based in Gulltown controlling customs from around 289 until Jon Arryn brought him to KL, year unknown. Then he was in KL for 3 years before being named master of coin. Until he joined the small council, which was certainly later than 292 when Robert Arryn was born, he was simply a member of Jon Arryn's household, much less a target of Varys's spy network than he eventually became. Varys can't be expected to closely watch every lower-ranked member of every household in KL.

It is a lie. If Robert wasn't LF's son, then she wouldn't have wanted to give him one, because they'd already have one. He's  certainly Jon Arryn's. He wasn't part of Jon's household. He was in Gulltown. Lysa was in Kings Landing. Moreover, Varys woud have ample reason to get rid of someone with the skill and intelligence to upset his plans and that's easy ammunition. "Lord Arryn... Littlefinger's been fucking your wife and passing off his bastard as your son and heir to defraud you." That's all it would take.

On 11/15/2023 at 8:10 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

LF being a tease actually matches his personality, lol. However, I still think there are some random hints that suggest Robert could be LF's child despite the fact that tease thing sounds like him. 

If you're thinking about Robert's hair color, Catelyn says that Hoster Tully had the same coloring. He likely got it from his grandfather.

Quote

The last time Catelyn had seen him, his hair and beard had been brown, well streaked with grey. Now they had gone white as snow.

I'm not sure what the narrative purpose would be to make Robert Arryn a bastard, but he survived in the show. My guess is that he's really Sansa's cousin and he'll be sympathetic to the Stark cause with Yohn Royce as his regent after Littlefinger is ousted.

[Hippocras]

2 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

He wasn't part of Jon's household. He was in Gulltown. Lysa was in Kings Landing. Moreover, Varys woud have ample reason to get rid of someone with the skill and intelligence to upset his plans and that's easy ammunition. "Lord Arryn... Littlefinger's been fucking your wife and passing off his bastard as your son and heir to defraud you." That's all it would take.

If you're thinking about Robert's hair color, Catelyn says that Hoster Tully had the same coloring. He likely got it from his grandfather.

I'm not sure what the narrative purpose would be to make Robert Arryn a bastard, but he survived in the show. My guess is that he's really Sansa's cousin and he'll be sympathetic to the Stark cause with Yohn Royce as his regent after Littlefinger is ousted.

He was. Did you read my post? We do not know how long he was in charge of customs in Gulltown, but we do know that he was in King's Landing for 3 years, in Jon Arryn's service, BEFORE he became master of coin, and that he had been master of coin for a while before the series began. He was below Varys's specific notice for quite a while in other words. And, as I already said, Lysa was not exclusively in KL, since we know she had some of her miscarriages in the Vale. That could not have happened if she never went to the Vale. So clearly she travelled back and forth sometimes, and probably by boat, which took her through Gulltown while LF was in charge of customs there.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

He was. Did you read my post? We do not know how long he was in charge of customs in Gulltown, but we do know that he was in King's Landing for 3 years, in Jon Arryn's service, BEFORE he became master of coin, and that he had been master of coin for a while before the series began. He was below Varys's specific notice for quite a while in other words. And, as I already said, Lysa was not exclusively in KL, since we know she had some of her miscarriages in the Vale. That could not have happened if she never went to the Vale. So clearly she travelled back and forth sometimes, and probably by boat, which took her through Gulltown while LF was in charge of customs there.

No. He wasn't. Varys has spies even in the North. The idea that he wouldn't be interested in the guy from Gulltown that's banging the Hand of the King's wife seems very unlikely. This isn't a secret that Littlefinger would be able to keep and Varys has no reason to protect LF's secrets, since he's hard to manipulate. Fair point about her being in the Eyrie, but those were almost certainly for her first two miscarriages, which were probably before the Greyjoy Rebellion. They were married for 6 years before LF was appointed at Gulltown.

[Hippocras]

9 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

No. He wasn't. Varys has spies even in the North. The idea that he wouldn't be interested in the guy from Gulltown that's banging the Hand of the King's wife seems very unlikely. This isn't a secret that Littlefinger would be able to keep and Varys has no reason to protect LF's secrets, since he's hard to manipulate. Fair point about her being in the Eyrie, but those were almost certainly for her first two miscarriages, which were probably before the Greyjoy Rebellion. They were married for 6 years before LF was appointed at Gulltown.

All I can say is that my post was based on research. It is clearly stated that he was in KL for 3 years before becoming master of coin, and it is also clearly stated that Lysa had miscarriages in the Vale.

As for Varys's interest, my point was not that Varys was uninterested in who was having sex with Lysa, you misunderstood.

My point was that Varys can't watch closely every single person in KL all the time everywhere, that unlike most people, Littlefinger was clearly aware of the tunnel network in the Red Keep and so was better able to hide from Varys, and finally, that before LF became Master of Coin, he was not one of the top targets of Varys's interest because he was simply someone in Jon Arryn's service.

Finally, Varys clearly knew that Cersei's children were not Robert's, but he held on to that information. He did NOT behave as you are so certain he would in Littlefinger's case by telling anyone. Think about it: what good does it do him to have Jon Arryn's heir declared illegitimate, get Lysa possibly killed, and get Littlefinger killed as well? Absolutely nothing. Varys has a clear agenda and it is NOT about keeping people honest. If the information does not help him to get Aegon on the throne at a particular point in time, then he holds on to it and does not tell anyone. Yet.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Hippocras

[Lee-Sensei]

45 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

All I can say is that my post was based on research. It is clearly stated that he was in KL for 3 years before becoming master of coin, and it is also clearly stated that Lysa had miscarriages in the Vale.

As for Varys's interest, my point was not that Varys was uninterested in who was having sex with Lysa, you misunderstood.

My point was that Varys can't watch closely every single person in KL all the time everywhere, that unlike most people, Littlefinger was clearly aware of the tunnel network in the Red Keep and so was better able to hide from Varys, and finally, that before LF became Master of Coin, he was not one of the top targets of Varys's interest because he was simply someone in Jon Arryn's service.

Finally, Varys clearly knew that Cersei's children were not Robert's, but he held on to that information. He did NOT behave as you are so certain he would in Littlefinger's case by telling anyone. Think about it: what good does it do him to have Jon Arryn's heir declared illegitimate, get Lysa possibly killed, and get Littlefinger killed as well? Absolutely nothing. Varys has a clear agenda and it is NOT about keeping people honest. If the information does not help him to get Aegon on the throne at a particular point in time, then he holds on to it and does not tell anyone. Yet.

There are stated reasons for him to keep Cersei's secret. Not Littlefingers. There's nothing that suggests that Robert Arryn is Littlefinger's son or that he even slept with her during her marriage to Jon, but you're free to believe what you want.

[Hippocras]

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

There are stated reasons for him to keep Cersei's secret. Not Littlefingers. There's nothing that suggests that Robert Arryn is Littlefinger's son or that he even slept with her during her marriage to Jon, but you're free to believe what you want.

He doesn't need a reason to keep a secret, other than it not being useful to him to reveal something. If he gives away information freely, he has nothing to blackmail with if it is needed. 

 

Anyway, RA's paternity is, as far as I am concerned, an open question. The small hints here and there may come to nothing and that would be fine for me. But as far as I can tell there is nothing that definitevely rules out LF being the father, and GRRM has certainly left the door open.

I don't, frankly, know why we would have been given details such as the year LF got his position in Gulltown, the fact that it was Lysa who got him that position, how long he was in KL before joining the small council, etc. If not to make us wonder. Why make the timeline fit so clearly if not to provoke speculation?

Edited November 17, 2023 by Hippocras

[Frey family reunion]

20 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

It is a lie. If Robert wasn't LF's son, then she wouldn't have wanted to give him one, because they'd already have one

Not necessarily.  Littlefinger could never be Robin's father because it would disinherit him.  I think it could reasonably be interpreted to mean that she wanted to give Littlefinger a child he could call his own.

[Lee-Sensei]

11 hours ago, Hippocras said:

He doesn't need a reason to keep a secret, other than it not being useful to him to reveal something. If he gives away information freely, he has nothing to blackmail with if it is needed. 

Anyway, RA's paternity is, as far as I am concerned, an open question. The small hints here and there may come to nothing and that would be fine for me. But as far as I can tell there is nothing that definitevely rules out LF being the father, and GRRM has certainly left the door open.

I don't, frankly, know why we would have been given details such as the year LF got his position in Gulltown, the fact that it was Lysa who got him that position, how long he was in KL before joining the small council, etc. If not to make us wonder. Why make the timeline fit so clearly if not to provoke speculation?

Agree to disagree.

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Not necessarily.  Littlefinger could never be Robin's father because it would disinherit him.  I think it could reasonably be interpreted to mean that she wanted to give Littlefinger a child he could call his own.

You seem to think she's much more calculating than she is. In that same scene she admitted to murdering Jon Arryn, which would mean death if any of the Vale Lords or knights found out. Robert is Jon Arryn's son. Not Littlefinger's.

[Hippocras]

12 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Agree to disagree.

You seem to think she's much more calculating than she is. In that same scene she admitted to murdering Jon Arryn, which would mean death if any of the Vale Lords or knights found out. Robert is Jon Arryn's son. Not Littlefinger's.

You should try rewriting that scene with the modification you so clearly think would be necessary to make the speculation valid. What results is simply a weirdly out of place and awkward admission that has nothing to do with either the origins of her longstanding infatuation (which the first pregnancy WAS connected to) or to the murder. It really doesn't fit, and would come across as horrible writing because it would reduce the impact of the reveal of the murder.

Whether RA was fathered by LF or by JA, it doesn't matter, because officially he is Robert Arryn. Murdering Jon and admitting to it in that context does not affect Robert Arryn's inheritance. Letting anyone at all anywhere know about LF fathering him does. It would disinherit him. Even in that moment, when other admissions were flying, she would never do anything that would jeopardize her son's position as Lord of the Eyrie.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Hippocras

[Lee-Sensei]

6 hours ago, Hippocras said:

You should try rewriting that scene with the modification you so clearly think would be necessary to make the speculation valid. What results is simply a weirdly out of place and awkward admission that has nothing to do with either the origins of her longstanding infatuation (which the first pregnancy WAS connected to) or to the murder. It really doesn't fit, and would come across as horrible writing because it would reduce the impact of the reveal of the murder.

Whether RA was fathered by LF or by JA, it doesn't matter, because officially he is Robert Arryn. Murdering Jon and admitting to it in that context does not affect Robert Arryn's inheritance. Letting anyone at all anywhere know about LF fathering him does. It would disinherit him. Even in that moment, when other admissions were flying, she would never do anything that would jeopardize her son's position as Lord of the Eyrie.

All speculation is valid. Aerys seemed to have a thing for Joanna Lannister. Maybe tywin's kid's are all bastards. It's just very unlikely. There's no evidence supporting this theory, it would be wildly out of character for Littlefinger and Lysa herself indicates that it's not true. And again, Lysa admitted to murdering the Lord of the Vale. She was revealing her deepest, darkest secrets, but she never indicates that Robert Arryn is LF's son. There's just absolutely nothing to this one, but people are free to believe it if they want.

[Hippocras]

18 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

and Lysa herself indicates that it's not true. 

She doesn't though. This is what is bothering me about what you are saying. I think it is perfectly fine to have a different take on things, it is just that a different take doesn't mean asserting that alternate ideas are disproven, when they are not. She did not say what you claim she said.

Littlefinger manipulates, and does use sex to do so when it is useful to him. So it is not at all out of character, actually, for him to use it as a way to string along Lysa in order to gain one promotion after another for himself. Lysa was lonely and desperate to have a living child, and the promotions magically seem to have happened in a way that perfectly coincides with RA's conception.

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

She doesn't though. This is what is bothering me about what you are saying. I think it is perfectly fine to have a different take on things, it is just that a different take doesn't mean asserting that alternate ideas are disproven, when they are not. She did not say what you claim she said.

Littlefinger manipulates, and does use sex to do so when it is useful to him. So it is not at all out of character, actually, for him to use it as a way to string along Lysa in order to gain one promotion after another for himself. Lysa was lonely and desperate to have a living child, and the promotions magically seem to have happened in a way that perfectly coincides with RA's conception.

Agree to disagree.