the trees have eyes Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 On 1/23/2024 at 9:04 PM, SeanF said: @the trees have eyesI don't think Tywin, or Ser Kevan, or Randyll Tarly, or - a lot of Westerosi lords - are any better than the Ironborn. But, we do also see lordly commanders who do impose standards and restraints on those in their service, like Ned, Stannis, Jon Snow, Edmure. At a moral, individual level I agree. Sweeping generalisations are clumsy and unhelpful when Roose Bolton, Tywin or Bronn could be contrasted unfavourably with Rodrik The Reader or Baelor Blacktyde (from what little we learn of them). But The Old Way gives the Ironborn an economic and legal framework to carry out reaving as a way of life that is absent in the rest of Westeros and a culture where a man's status and prestige depends on how many salt wives he has captured and men only wear jewellery they have paid the iron price for is obviously a problem for it's neighbours. I've quoted the Theon chapter on the raid on the Stony Shore in my last post as I think this sums up how The Ironborn's approach to warfare differs from the rest of the 7K. Of course this is a way of turning violent tendencies outwards rather than inwards but that just adds maintaining stability to the other reasons for reaving to continue less civil strife be added to men lacking salt wives, jewels, plunder and battle stories to boast of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 (edited) Nobody died at Bitterbridge, and they deserved it anyway. Edited January 30 by Daeron the Daring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 (edited) 1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said: Nobody died at Bitterbridge, and they deserved it anyway. As a resident of Bitterbridge, I am very offended. Daeron got what was coming to him when he died at Tumbleton. Edited January 30 by Craving Peaches Daeron the Daring 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said: Daeron got what was coming to him when he died at Tumbleton. So did the people of Bitterbridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: Days since peach last consumed: 28 Are you ok?! Craving Peaches 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 10 minutes ago, Alester Florent said: Are you ok?! I had Lipton Peach Iced Tea today so I'm okay now. Aldarion and Alester Florent 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 9 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said: So did the people of Bitterbridge. The innocents of Bitterbridge rest in the seventh heaven, while Daeron the Erring, who died like a loser, rots in the seventh hell. It is known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: The innocents of Bitterbridge rest in the seventh heaven The criminals were hiding among civilians and behind civilian infrastructure tho, and they had to be punished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) 2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said: The criminals were hiding among civilians and behind civilian infrastructure tho, and they had to be punished. Everyone else in Bitterbridge was acceptable collateral damage I guess... As was the town name. Though 'Bitterbridge' does have more of a ring to it than 'Stonebridge', I will grant Daeron the War Criminal that. Edited January 31 by Craving Peaches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 15 Author Share Posted February 15 On the subject of war crimes generally, I find Browning a lot more convincing than Goldhagen. Most war criminals really are "ordinary men", which is why the fit back so easily into civilian society, once the war is over. Even among war criminals, people like Beria, Dirlewanger, Amon Goth are outliers. Even in Martin's world, people like Ser Kevan Lannister, Ser Marq Piper, Lord Karstark, Steelshanks Walton, Ser Addam Marbrand etc. are "ordinary men", whereas Ser Gregor, Vargo Hoat, Ramsay Bolton, and Ser Amory are the outliers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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