Use of the valyrian word in Cersei's prophesy.

[Alma11]

I was thinking about the use of the valyrian word "valonqar" in the prophesy Maggy tells Cersei. 

As Maggy says:

Quote

Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear. [...] Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

I want to point out how in the text valonqar is the only word used in the valyrian language. This word comes up solely in Cersei's chapters.
A little excursus of its apperance in the book (AFFC):

• It appears for the first time in Cersei I, from nowhere, after Cersei's dream, which is linked with the prophesy (which the reader knows nothing about yet) 
• It shows up a little further in the same chapter. This time is directly linked with Tyrion, not just implied. The meaning is still unknown. 
• It shows up again in Cersei VI, in wich she reminisces her meeting with Maggy.
• In Cersei VIII it's the first time another character uses the word, in this case a Tyroshi man who gives her a head he thinks belong to Tyrion.
• In the same chapter is told the encounter between Cersei and Maggy.
• In Cersei IX we finally found out what this word means: little brother.
• The last use of this word comes up in Cersei X, after the accusation of Margaery's adultery. She thinks she is finally free of the prophesy.

 

So, we came to know the meaning of this word near the end of the book, but from its first apperance we can assume it's linked with Tyrion, or at least that Cersei thinks it's linked with Tyrion. There are many theories about the valonquar that never linger on the choice, from the author, to use a valyrian word to point out the person who will murder Cersei, but exclusively on the translation (apparent) of valonqar. Therefor, analyzing the prophesy taking into account this last factor, we can come to the conclusion that Cersei's murderer has links with valyrian culture, otherwise the choice of the term in the text loses meaning, making it solely a matter of translation, which is given anyway at the end of the book. 
Following this reasoning, the only (main) male characters that have a valyrian connection are Jon and Euron. 
I admit, however, that I don't rule out Tyrion, because he mudered a woman in the same way described in the prophesy and because he can have valyrian connection in the future (regardless of the theory that he is Aerys's son, that I do not subscribe, but it goes well with my essay).
Regarding Jaime, I admit that there are foreshadows in the text about him beeing the valonqar, but he doesn't have a link with valyrian culture. 

I think is important, also, to point out the fact that the translation of valonqar could be wrong, but it's improbable, because another character confirms it. 

So, my question is: how do you resolve the specific use of word valonqar in the text?  

 

Edited March 5 by Alma11

[Aebram]

I keep remembering that line of dialogue from Master Aemon, "Dragons are neither male nor female ... The language misled us all for a thousand years (Feast 35)." Is High Valyrian one of those gendered languages, where the male form of a word is sometimes used generically to mean either sex? If so, the valonqar could be a woman, which opens up the range of suspects.

[Nevets]

Tyrion is, I believe, in a locale where valyrian is used, so there is that connection.  I think "the valonqar" could be a nickname, nom de guerre, or title that a character becomes known by. Tyrion fits the bill nicely for that.  ( For the record, I've always suspected Tyrion for it.

[House Cambodia]

1 hour ago, Aebram said:

I keep remembering that line of dialogue from Master Aemon, "Dragons are neither male nor female ... The language misled us all for a thousand years (Feast 35)." Is High Valyrian one of those gendered languages, where the male form of a word is sometimes used generically to mean either sex? If so, the valonqar could be a woman, which opens up the range of suspects.

My thoughts too, adding in the possible gendered hundreds-of-years-old misunderstanding over 'The PRINCE That Was Promised'.

 

It's understandable that Cercei consistently assumes it must refer to Tyrion, especially after his 'turn to ashes' threat. Even at the height of her paranoia, she'd never imagine it could be Jamie. However, she is wrong about so many things.

But Maggy using that sole Valyrian term - interesting.

Edited March 6 by House Cambodia

[Sandy Clegg]

I have a different take, and it's something I've mentioned before on the forums I think. We need to look at the usage of the word valonqar, not just its meaning.

The first time we hear someone other than Cersei say the word aloud, it is clearly in the context of presenting her with what is ostensibly the head of Tyrion (her little brother):

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"I bring you justice. I bring you the head of your valonqar."

Your valonqar. 

But when Maggy the Frog first gives Cersei the prophecy she phrases it like so:

Quote

"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

The valonqar.

Cersei never muses on the subtle grammar difference here, but I think it is an important one. If Maggy had wanted to refer to Tyrion, she could easily have said "your valonqar". Now, the meta answer to why she doesn't is obvious: GRRM wants to have as wide a choice of suspects as possible, and "your valonqar" would have narrowed it down to only two. Jamie (younger by seconds) and Tyrion. This feels kind of clunky, though. Maggy's speech isn't otherwise given to grandiloquence in its style of speech. She talks, albeit like a crotchety old crone, in a fairly common way.

Most tellingly, Maggy uses no such vague terms when referring to Melara's fate:

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Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close."

No riddling use of "the" here. Just your death; her breath; she is close. Maggy can, and is, very specific with her language when she wants to be. So then why, for Cersei's fate, does she refer to her death as "the valonqar" as if it were some legendary creature? The yeti? The devil? The Loch Ness Monster? We use 'the' for legendary beings. Jamie and Tyrion are neither, and Maggy, knowing the future, also knows this. She also knows, as we have seen with Melara, how to use English correctly when foretelling the future.

So Maggy is likely not referring to any brother of Cersei's, but rather something else - commonly known as 'the little brother'. Something that has the power to strangle, but whose original name perhaps has been ... 'lost in transit' from one continent to another perhaps? Well, there is a very likely candidate for such a thing, introduced in the prologue of ACOK:

Quote

Cressen no longer recalled the name the Asshai'i gave the leaf, or the Lysene poisoners the crystal. In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victim's face turned as purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food.

GRRM is clearly teasing (or distracting) us with the idea that it is Tyrion who will be the valonqar, as he is Cersei's number one suspect. But since when has Cersei been right about anything? Jamie is the next candidate, surely, but this presents us with the same problem of how to resolve the odd phrasing ('the valonqar'). Plus, having one metal hand, Jamie can hardly 'wrap' both of them around anything, let alone Cersei's neck. 

But then GRRM also presents us with this scene, nicely juxtaposing the valonqar idea with the image of being poisoned. Hidden in plain sight, as it were:

The valonqar shall wrap his hands about your throat, the queen heard, but the voice did not belong to the old woman. The hands emerged from the mists of her dream and coiled around her neck; thick hands, and strong. Above them floated his face, leering down at her with his mismatched eyes. No, the queen tried to cry out, but the dwarf's fingers dug deep into her neck, choking off her protests. She kicked and screamed to no avail. Before long she was making the same sound her son had made, the terrible thin sucking sound that marked Joff's last breath on earth.

Even in Cersei's own imaginings, she is subconsciously associating the valonqar with the death - by poison - of her own son. For this reason, I think we have to assume that 'The Valonqar' is simply what they call 'The Strangler' in places where Valyrian is spoken, but presumably only experts in such poisons  - Essos equivalents of maesters - would know this nickname-like usage. The poison known as "the Little brother". Only Cersei doesn't ask a maester to translate the word for her. She asks someone rather more pure of heart - a septa:

"Tyrion is the valonqar," she said. "Do you use that word in Myr? It's High Valyrian, it means little brother." She had asked Septa Saranella about the word, after Melara drowned.

A phrase can have multiple meanings, and potions do have euphemistic names, like Demon's Blood or the Tears of Lys. But this septa clearly did not know how to draw any such connection.  At the very least, we can say that Cersei only knows the literal meaning of valonqar, not its full usage. That much is clear.

Essentially, it comes down to this. Maggy wouldn't have used 'the' when she could have said 'your'. Why use specificity for one silly girl's fate but not for the other? However, it is logical that she would put 'the' in front of a name of for a poison that uses 'the' in its Westerosi translation.

Cersei's death will be by poison, not her brother's hands.  And I suspect (but this is pure speculation) she herself will be the one to administer it. 

[Alma11]

5 hours ago, Aebram said:

I keep remembering that line of dialogue from Master Aemon, "Dragons are neither male nor female ... The language misled us all for a thousand years (Feast 35)." Is High Valyrian one of those gendered languages, where the male form of a word is sometimes used generically to mean either sex? If so, the valonqar could be a woman, which opens up the range of suspects.

 

I thought this as well, but the prophesy says "his hands", so I doubt that it's neutral. 

43 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I have a different take, and it's something I've mentioned before on the forums I think. We need to look at the usage of the word valonqar, not just its meaning.

The first time we hear someone other than Cersei say the word aloud, it is clearly in the context of presenting her with what is ostensibly the head of Tyrion (her little brother):

Your valonqar. 

But when Maggy the Frog first gives Cersei the prophecy she phrases it like so:

The valonqar.

Cersei never muses on the subtle grammar difference here, but I think it is an important one. If Maggy had wanted to refer to Tyrion, she could easily have said "your valonqar". Now, the meta answer to why she doesn't is obvious: GRRM wants to have as wide a choice of suspects as possible, and "your valonqar" would have narrowed it down to only two. Jamie (younger by seconds) and Tyrion. This feels kind of clunky, though. Maggy's speech isn't otherwise given to grandiloquence in its style of speech. She talks, albeit like a crotchety old crone, in a fairly common way.

Most tellingly, Maggy uses no such vague terms when referring to Melara's fate:

No riddling use of "the" here. Just your death; her breath; she is close. Maggy can, and is, very specific with her language when she wants to be. So then why, for Cersei's fate, does she refer to her death as "the valonqar" as if it were some legendary creature? The yeti? The devil? The Loch Ness Monster? We use 'the' for legendary beings. Jamie and Tyrion are neither, and Maggy, knowing the future, also knows this. She also knows, as we have seen with Melara, how to use English correctly when foretelling the future.

So Maggy is likely not referring to any brother of Cersei's, but rather something else - commonly known as 'the little brother'. Something that has the power to strangle, but whose original name perhaps has been ... 'lost in transit' from one continent to another perhaps? Well, there is a very likely candidate for such a thing, introduced in the prologue of ACOK:

GRRM is clearly teasing (or distracting) us with the idea that it is Tyrion who will be the valonqar, as he is Cersei's number one suspect. But since when has Cersei been right about anything? Jamie is the next candidate, surely, but this presents us with the same problem of how to resolve the odd phrasing ('the valonqar'). Plus, having one metal hand, Jamie can hardly 'wrap' both of them around anything, let alone Cersei's neck. 

But then GRRM also presents us with this scene, nicely juxtaposing the valonqar idea with the image of being poisoned. Hidden in plain sight, as it were:

The valonqar shall wrap his hands about your throat, the queen heard, but the voice did not belong to the old woman. The hands emerged from the mists of her dream and coiled around her neck; thick hands, and strong. Above them floated his face, leering down at her with his mismatched eyes. No, the queen tried to cry out, but the dwarf's fingers dug deep into her neck, choking off her protests. She kicked and screamed to no avail. Before long she was making the same sound her son had made, the terrible thin sucking sound that marked Joff's last breath on earth.

Even in Cersei's own imaginings, she is subconsciously associating the valonqar with the death - by poison - of her own son. For this reason, I think we have to assume that 'The Valonqar' is simply what they call 'The Strangler' in places where Valyrian is spoken, but presumably only experts in such poisons  - Essos equivalents of maesters - would know this nickname-like usage. The poison known as "the Little brother". Only Cersei doesn't ask a maester to translate the word for her. She asks someone rather more pure of heart - a septa:

"Tyrion is the valonqar," she said. "Do you use that word in Myr? It's High Valyrian, it means little brother." She had asked Septa Saranella about the word, after Melara drowned.

A phrase can have multiple meanings, and potions do have euphemistic names, like Demon's Blood or the Tears of Lys. But this septa clearly did not know how to draw any such connection.  At the very least, we can say that Cersei only knows the literal meaning of valonqar, not its full usage. That much is clear.

Essentially, it comes down to this. Maggy wouldn't have used 'the' when she could have said 'your'. Why use specificity for one silly girl's fate but not for the other? However, it is logical that she would put 'the' in front of a name of for a poison that uses 'the' in its Westerosi translation.

Cersei's death will be by poison, not her brother's hands.  And I suspect (but this is pure speculation) she herself will be the one to administer it. 

It came to my mind that it may be poison Maggy is referring to, but why then use "his"? If she intended the strangler why not use "its"?

Otherwise I agree with you on the importance of the difference between "the" and "your", plus the use of a valyrian word, I doubt the valonqar is one of her brothers. 

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, Alma11 said:

It came to my mind that it may be poison Maggy is referring to, but why then use "his"? If she intended the strangler why not use "its"?

Good point, and it's another anomaly, but this time more explainable through straightforward grammar, whereas calling Tyrion "the little brother" is less so.

If Maggy knows that the valonqar poison is known as the Strangler, then we only need to reconcile the idea that she is using metaphorical language. Strangler poison conjures up the image of strangler's hands. Cressen himself feels no hands around his neck as he chokes, but nevertheless resorts to the metaphor when describing his own death:

Cressen tried to reply, but his words caught in his throat. His cough became a terrible thin whistle as he strained to suck in air. Iron fingers tightened round his neck.

It's a relatively natural human thing to do in speech - personifying the non-human.  Ascribing fingers to something that does not have fingers. Also, referring to items using personal pronouns such as 'he' or 'she' is a very human trait. A ship is a woman, just as Lady Lu, the axe, is female. So Maggy may have been running with the metaphor. Which is also a slightly odd way to phrase things, but is it any odder than referring to Tyrion as "the" valonqar rather than "your" valonqar.

In the end I think it comes down to which feels more natural - and plausible - in terms of speech.

Edited March 6 by Sandy Clegg

[Castellan]

I don't really know what I think about this.

Sandy Clegg makes good points that firstly, GRRM inserts in the text the information that the Strangler is not one of the Essosi names for the leaf or crystal and the Strangler seems to be a Westerosi nickname for it, and secondly that Cersei herself connects Joffrey's death from the Strangler with Maggi's prophecy.

I really can't see a good reason for bothering to insert the information that the names of a poison are forgotten other than to set up for Cersei dying from something that's real name is the Little Brother

Both having the little brother pool wider than Cersei realises, and having the word refer to a poison, do the job of the prophecies - to bite you in the bum - you can’t escape them and they are not what you think.

It could be argued that having it refer to a poison makes a bigger twist and also a bigger surprise to the reader, but then, does that mean that it’s NOT going to be either of Cersei’s brothers? Because I think if she is strangled from poison administered by Tyrion and the reader somehow learns, “oh that poison is also called the Little Brother” it just messes things up.

The only way it would work would be if she had someone kill Tyrion, felt very smug, and then someone poisoned her with the Little Brother.

I suppose just hearing that Tyrion is dead and jumping for joy then dying because someone else gave you the Strangler would also work.

[Alma11]

13 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Good point, and it's another anomaly, but this time more explainable through straightforward grammar, whereas calling Tyrion "the little brother" is less so.

If Maggy knows that the valonqar poison is known as the Strangler, then we only need to reconcile the idea that she is using metaphorical language. Strangler poison conjures up the image of strangler's hands. Cressen himself feels no hands around his neck as he chokes, but nevertheless resorts to the metaphor when describing his own death:

Cressen tried to reply, but his words caught in his throat. His cough became a terrible thin whistle as he strained to suck in air. Iron fingers tightened round his neck.

It's a relatively natural human thing to do in speech - personifying the non-human.  Ascribing fingers to something that does not have fingers. Also, referring to items using personal pronouns such as 'he' or 'she' is a very human trait. A ship is a woman, just as Lady Lu, the axe, is female. So Maggy may have been running with the metaphor. Which is also a slightly odd way to phrase things, but is it any odder than referring to Tyrion as "the" valonqar rather than "your" valonqar.

In the end I think it comes down to which feels more natural - and plausible - in terms of speech.

I would gladly agree with you, because the use of the definite article is suspect. To use "the" it must be someone special, someone unique, supernatural, who has power in the text (prophesy) and in the story and I see nobody that has all this requisite at the moment, but it's the "his" that still makes me doubt. You're right about personifying the non-human, but hasn't the English language a straightforward grammatical rule about it? I mean, if it's really the poison, then it's not a little bit like cheating from Martin? In other languages this would not be a problem, but in English it is.

 

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Both having the little brother pool wider than Cersei realises, and having the word refer to a poison, do the job of the prophecies - to bite you in the bum - you can’t escape them and they are not what you think.

I think that's the beauty of prophecies, it already happened so you can't really change it.

 

Quote

Because I think if she is strangled from poison administered by Tyrion and the reader somehow learns, “oh that poison is also called the Little Brother” it just messes things up.

Yes, it could be, but in my mind she drink the strangler of her own volition without knowing that it's also called "the valonqar" 

[Lissasalayaya]

Linguistically, it might be worth noting that little brother is two words, each word with its own meaning, yet the Valyrian word valonqar apparently contains both meanings in one word. But Valyrians must have a word that only means little, and a word that only means brother, right? A people can't communicate in everyday life without words that can express those meanings individually. Because not all brothers are little, and not all things that are little are brothers. 

Further complicating the matter is the potential double meaning happening in the word little. Little in the phrase little brother could refer to age or size or both, and we don't know for certain which of those three possibilities Septa Saranella meant.

Edited March 7 by Lissasalayaya

[House Cambodia]

I'll just throw out the thought that there are a few "little brothers" alive and with motive. Euron is Victarion's little brother. Stannis is Robert's 'little brother'; even Theon is a little (younger) brother to Asha and Jon to fAegon.

[Sandy Clegg]

3 hours ago, Lissasalayaya said:

Linguistically, it might be worth noting that little brother is two words, each word with its own meaning, yet the Valyrian word valonqar apparently contains both meanings in one word. But Valyrians must have a word that only means little, and a word that only means brother, right? A people can't communicate in everyday life without words that can express those meanings individually. Because not all brothers are little, and not all things that are little are brothers. 

Further complicating the matter is the potential double meaning happening in the word little. Little in the phrase little brother could refer to age or size or both, and we don't know for certain which of those three possibilities Septa Saranella meant.

There are a few good points worth looking at here.

In English this is the case yes, but in many e.g. Latin languages you can use a modifying suffix at the end of a word to ascribe meanings of ‘big’ and ‘little’. In Italian casa is a ‘house’ but cassetta literally means ‘little house’ because they use the suffix -etta. Similarly, libro is ‘book’ and librone (lib-roh-neh) is ‘big book’. You can put that suffix -one at the end of most nouns and it just becomes a 'big one'. So maybe valonqar is little brother and something like valonqaro is big brother. My Valyrian is a little rusty, so I couldn't swear to that  

But that brings us back to your second point. Although many languages can use suffixes to make objects bigger or smaller (in one word), I don't know of any that can refer to 'younger brother' in one word. In Spanish, 'younger brother' is hermano menor, but a 'little brother' is 'hermanito'. Same in Italian. Which makes it even less likely that valonqar would be a word meaning 'younger brother' - if we're using our own languages as a baseline. If anyone knows of any languages that express 'younger sibling' in one word I'll be happy to know more. But from where I'm standing, it looks like Cersei has misread the meaning of the word, and is only thinking of the 'younger' meaning of 'little' because she has a Tyrion revenge fixation.

In fact, GRRM may even have slipped in an early reference to this phenomenon, with the Frey cousins Big Walder and Little Walder. Here, the older one (Big Walder) is physically smaller than the younger (Little Walder). So GRRM is at least aware of the subtle ambiguities in things like 'big and little' when referring to family members age as opposed to size.

Edited March 7 by Sandy Clegg
Walders v Walters!!

[House Cambodia]

9 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I don't of any that can refer to 'younger brother' in one word.

I'm no linguist, but I believe Chinese and Japanese do, and you'll like the Danish word - "lillebror"

Then you have the language of my adopted country (Khmer) which has no spaces between words, so it's a matter of interpretation whether 'p'oanpros' is one word or two.

[Sandy Clegg]

7 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

I'm no linguist, but I believe Chinese and Japanese do, and you'll like the Danish word - "lillebror"

Then you have the language of my adopted country (Khmer) which has no spaces between words, so it's a matter of interpretation whether 'p'oanpros' is one word or two.

I've heard of lillebror. The Danish basically use the same word to mean 'little brother' and 'younger brother', so that doesn't really help with the distinction if you're Danish I guess. But the majority of languages do have discrete terns to differentiate between younger and little, it seems, when it comes to age/size.

I'm sure Asian languages might work differently, but probably GRRM himself keeps his sphere of language references closer to Europe? I mean, how much time does he have to research linguistics just to write a book?

[Sandy Clegg]

5 hours ago, Alma11 said:

You're right about personifying the non-human, but hasn't the English language a straightforward grammatical rule about it? I mean, if it's really the poison, then it's not a little bit like cheating from Martin? In other languages this would not be a problem, but in English it is.

At some point, GRRM does have to close the curtain around this mystery and leave some things ambiguous, and this is where we simply can't say for sure. Again, it's a matter of what use of language rings true for us readers: Maggy waxing poetic and referring to a poison as 'he'. Or she is being purely literal - in which case we have to resolve 'the' valonqar. 

Again, GRRM plants seeds as to his views on personification of objects. I mentioned Lady Lu, above. The axe Garth the jailer threatens Davos with. He also has a rod of black iron called 'The Whore':

Once Garth brought his ladies by to introduce them to the dead man. "The Whore don't look like much," he said, fondling a rod of cold black iron, "but when I heat her up red-hot and let her touch your cock, you'll cry for mother. And this here's my Lady Lu. It's her who'll take your head and hands, when Lord Wyman sends down word."

So GRRM shows us that characters in his universe can refer to objects as he or she. And if we have precedent for its usage here, then it can be applied elsewhere.

Also, I think it's worth mentioning. Maggy is totally fucking with Cersei in that prophecy. It's not like she wants those kids to be able to understand them outright. She has to be allowed some 'fortune-teller flair'. I just don't think 'the' valonqar fits that kind of flavour. But I guess personal taste on one's reading of Maggy's use of language will still be the deciding factor here. GRRM is keeping this thing under wraps, but I think the seeds of its resolution are definitely sprinkled throughout the books.

[House Cambodia]

11 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I've heard of lillebror. The Danish basically use the same word to mean 'little brother' and 'younger brother', so that doesn't really help with the distinction if you're Danish I guess. But the majority of languages do have discrete terns to differentiate between younger and little, it seems, when it comes to age/size.

I'm sure Asian languages might work differently, but probably GRRM himself keeps his sphere of language references closer to Europe? I mean, how much time does he have to research linguistics just to write a book?

Is Dothraki more Asian-based (In the books I mean, not the TV version)? Dunno. As you say, it's not one of Martin's most thought-through aspects; he produced no books of syntax. So for me, we're stretching speculation a little too far here. All I feel safe in concluding is that based on textual evidence, the valonquar is not who Cercei thinks it is.

[Lissasalayaya]

5 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

But from where I'm standing, it looks like Cersei has misread the meaning of the word, and is only thinking of the 'younger' meaning of 'little' because she has a Tyrion revenge fixation.

The possibility that GRRM is playing with the younger/little ambiguity might even be reflected in Tyrion and Cersei being stuck on Tyrion. Because Tyrion fits both meanings. He's her younger brother, but even if he were her older brother he would still be her little brother, because he's a dwarf. We might be onto something. 

[Alester Florent]

On 3/7/2024 at 6:52 AM, House Cambodia said:

I'll just throw out the thought that there are a few "little brothers" alive and with motive. Euron is Victarion's little brother. Stannis is Robert's 'little brother'; even Theon is a little (younger) brother to Asha and Jon to fAegon.

Loras, Garlan and Trystane too, all with motive.

Plus Aegon himself to the late Rhaenys. Of all the "little brothers" about the place, he's the most obviously Valyrian and also one of the (physically) closest and most overtly hostile to Cersei.

[Alma11]

3 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Loras, Garlan and Trystane too, all with motive.

Plus Aegon himself to the late Rhaenys. Of all the "little brothers" about the place, he's the most obviously Valyrian and also one of the (physically) closest and most overtly hostile to Cersei.

Aegon's problem is that we don't know if he's really who he claims to be. He could be a suitable candidate, but if we're not certain of his origin we can't include him in the list. For example, if the theory about Varys being a Blackfyre is true, than he could be on the list too. That's the problem with secret identities, it's like you miss a piece of a puzzle, but no one knows what that piece is. 

 

On 3/7/2024 at 9:48 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

At some point, GRRM does have to close the curtain around this mystery and leave some things ambiguous, and this is where we simply can't say for sure. Again, it's a matter of what use of language rings true for us readers: Maggy waxing poetic and referring to a poison as 'he'. Or she is being purely literal - in which case we have to resolve 'the' valonqar. 

Again, GRRM plants seeds as to his views on personification of objects. I mentioned Lady Lu, above. The axe Garth the jailer threatens Davos with. He also has a rod of black iron called 'The Whore':

Once Garth brought his ladies by to introduce them to the dead man. "The Whore don't look like much," he said, fondling a rod of cold black iron, "but when I heat her up red-hot and let her touch your cock, you'll cry for mother. And this here's my Lady Lu. It's her who'll take your head and hands, when Lord Wyman sends down word."

So GRRM shows us that characters in his universe can refer to objects as he or she. And if we have precedent for its usage here, then it can be applied elsewhere.

Also, I think it's worth mentioning. Maggy is totally fucking with Cersei in that prophecy. It's not like she wants those kids to be able to understand them outright. She has to be allowed some 'fortune-teller flair'. I just don't think 'the' valonqar fits that kind of flavour. But I guess personal taste on one's reading of Maggy's use of language will still be the deciding factor here. GRRM is keeping this thing under wraps, but I think the seeds of its resolution are definitely sprinkled throughout the books.

It's a really valid argument!

Edited March 8 by Alma11

[Hippocras]

I am intrigued by the theory that it actually refers to The Second Sons - sellsword company, and The Neck - region of Westeros.

Of course, for that to be true The Neck would need to somehow be under Cersei's control, which.... I mean.... how?