Perception of Time

[Son of Man]

How the dead see time compared to how the trees remember memories.  The living perceive time as an arrow with one flow.  The dead no longer perceive time in the same way.  They see the whole of time like a person staring at a painting.  Time is the painting and all of it is visible all at once.  The senses of the living are blocked from seeing the whole painting.  We see and thus perceive a small part at a time and it begins in one spot like looking at the painting through a pin hole. 

The drugs taken by Bran Stark and Daenerys Targaryen briefly removed some the block. They were able to read the history stored in the trees.  The weir tree and the tree in the Palace of Dust are similar.  They hold the memories of the people they fed on.  The warlocks were sacrificing people to their tree just like the Starks were doing for their trees. 

Bran saw history flowing backwards.  His visions were sequential.  The start of Dany's visions were also flowing backwards through time but the ones she got from the Undying were random.  The trees live long but they are bound by time.  The pinhole is larger and it can travel backwards on the surface of the painting.  But only where it has passed before.  Living trees have to play by the rules of time.  The Undying are already dead and can see the whole painting all at once.  Dany's visions were random because they were showing her the painting.  She saw through the eyes of the dead for that brief moment. 

The weirwood trees in Westeros hold the souls of the sacrificial victims.  The White Walkers are changed humans where the resurrected souls are now residing.  I don't think just any human could be turned to become a new home for one of the souls stored in the weirwood.  The supply of wildlings is endless but the process require a specific family DNA.  Preston Jacobs reasoned that bastard kids were sacrificed in the north.  I say only specific bastards can be turned to White Walkers.  Those coming from Craster and those from the Night's King.  I believe the Night's King came from House Stark.  So the White Walkers are dead Starks who got resurrected.  The trees are altars as well where the people worship the Old Gods and feed them blood.  The OG are the Greenseers feeding on the blood of the sacrifice.  Stark babies can be turned to make them suitable vessels for the resurrected.  Sacrifice was mainstream in the north.

The trees and the Undying are not mainstream in Essos.  We don't know whose souls are in their tree.  Perhaps random victims.  I don't know how they have memories of something that happened across the pond though.  Or how Bran saw all the way to Asshai.  Maybe all the trees are connected and information is shared like a global network. 

[House Cambodia]

2 hours ago, Son of Man said:

We don't know whose souls are in their tree.  Perhaps random victims.  I don't know how they have memories of something that happened across the pond though.  Or how Bran saw all the way to Asshai.  Maybe all the trees are connected and information is shared like a global network. 

Check out Michael Talks About Stuff for his intriguing theories about The Wall in relation to your thoughts.

I think it's strongly suggested that there is a 'Weirwood Net' with their roots reaching far, probably taking sustenance from underground rivers connected to underground tunnels that cover much of Westeros. Whilst the roots probably reach under the God's Eye to the Isle of Faces, they shouldn't be able to traverse seawater, i.e. to the Iron Isles or Essos. They do however have mobile agents in the form of ravens and crows which contain the souls of deceased Children. I'm not clear if crows are ubiquitous throughout Essos even to Asshai.

I tend to see your topic in terms of a 'spacetime continuum'. By that I mean living animals including humans experience time like an arrow, but are mobile so what they lose in time perspective they gain in space, whereas the dead and trees/plants (especially weirwoods that can live forever) have no mobility but can experience all past and future in the spot where they are rooted. Certain 'magical' beings such as wargs, and dream-inducing substances can blur the divide.

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, Son of Man said:

The drugs taken by Bran Stark and Daenerys Targaryen briefly removed some the block. They were able to read the history stored in the trees.  The weir tree and the tree in the Palace of Dust are similar.  They hold the memories of the people they fed on.  The warlocks were sacrificing people to their tree just like the Starks were doing for their trees. 

I like this interpretation.  The corrupted heart that Dany sees above the table where she sits is representative of the Warlocks heart tree.    She is seated at a table where she is on the menu.  There are two additional persons seated with her, to whom she is meant to replace as a life source for the undying.  Very much like Bran replacing Bloodraven.

[Son of Man]

On 4/2/2024 at 4:59 PM, LynnS said:

I like this interpretation.  The corrupted heart that Dany sees above the table where she sits is representative of the Warlocks heart tree.    She is seated at a table where she is on the menu.  There are two additional persons seated with her, to whom she is meant to replace as a life source for the undying.  Very much like Bran replacing Bloodraven.

Thanks, yeah Dany was looking at the blue heart on the table.  She thinks its a human heart but only a cardiologists can say with any certainty.  I would not trust Pycelle and his maesters to know human heart from gorilla heart. It's a guess but the heart came from a creature with a long life.  Like say the Children of the Forest.  The sorcerers want to live long so they need a hive heart from somebody who has a life span of billions of heart beats.

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

On 4/1/2024 at 10:29 AM, Son of Man said:

How the dead see time compared to how the trees remember memories.  The living perceive time as an arrow with one flow.  The dead no longer perceive time in the same way.  They see the whole of time like a person staring at a painting.  Time is the painting and all of it is visible all at once.  The senses of the living are blocked from seeing the whole painting.  We see and thus perceive a small part at a time and it begins in one spot like looking at the painting through a pin hole. 

The drugs taken by Bran Stark and Daenerys Targaryen briefly removed some the block. They were able to read the history stored in the trees.  The weir tree and the tree in the Palace of Dust are similar.  They hold the memories of the people they fed on.  The warlocks were sacrificing people to their tree just like the Starks were doing for their trees. 

Bran saw history flowing backwards.  His visions were sequential.  The start of Dany's visions were also flowing backwards through time but the ones she got from the Undying were random.  The trees live long but they are bound by time.  The pinhole is larger and it can travel backwards on the surface of the painting.  But only where it has passed before.  Living trees have to play by the rules of time.  The Undying are already dead and can see the whole painting all at once.  Dany's visions were random because they were showing her the painting.  She saw through the eyes of the dead for that brief moment. 

Wow, I really like this sort of topic. within philosophical debate regarding the nature of a god, their exists the concept of the conflict of how we can both have free will and god can be all knowing contradict, because god knowing all means we can only do what god knows we do, and one solution that is popular, is the idea that a god that existed outside of our universe and concept of time, created the whole of time at once, like making the entire an film real appear in their hand. so that way god can know everything that will happen, but everything that happened was a result of free will all happening at he same time, from the perspective of god. The idea of your painting definitely encapsulates that concept nicely, especially the realm of the dead, or the realm of god, existing out of time. very fun to think about.

two conflicting gods make it even more crazy to think about. maybe one exists in time and the other without, and their fight is a tug of war for who decides. idk.

On 4/1/2024 at 10:29 AM, Son of Man said:

The weirwood trees in Westeros hold the souls of the sacrificial victims.  The White Walkers are changed humans where the resurrected souls are now residing.  I don't think just any human could be turned to become a new home for one of the souls stored in the weirwood.  The supply of wildlings is endless but the process require a specific family DNA.  Preston Jacobs reasoned that bastard kids were sacrificed in the north.  I say only specific bastards can be turned to White Walkers.  Those coming from Craster and those from the Night's King.  I believe the Night's King came from House Stark.  So the White Walkers are dead Starks who got resurrected.  The trees are altars as well where the people worship the Old Gods and feed them blood.  The OG are the Greenseers feeding on the blood of the sacrifice.  Stark babies can be turned to make them suitable vessels for the resurrected.  Sacrifice was mainstream in the north.

I think that George sort of hints at something like this with Lyanna Stark and her relationship the Rheagar to be like that of Celtic Leanan Sídhe, fairly lovers that live short but inspiring lives. nights queen was probably a fairly lover, and they have likely mixed blood with many northern houses, or all given how starks until recently tended to marry northern spouses... well a lot of potential bastards from a lot of houses.

Edited April 6 by Club-foot cleft-lips
add an m

[the trees have eyes]

On 4/1/2024 at 3:29 PM, Son of Man said:

The weirwood trees in Westeros hold the souls of the sacrificial victims.  The White Walkers are changed humans where the resurrected souls are now residing.  I don't think just any human could be turned to become a new home for one of the souls stored in the weirwood.  The supply of wildlings is endless but the process require a specific family DNA.  Preston Jacobs reasoned that bastard kids were sacrificed in the north.  I say only specific bastards can be turned to White Walkers.  Those coming from Craster and those from the Night's King.  I believe the Night's King came from House Stark.  So the White Walkers are dead Starks who got resurrected.  The trees are altars as well where the people worship the Old Gods and feed them blood.  The OG are the Greenseers feeding on the blood of the sacrifice.  Stark babies can be turned to make them suitable vessels for the resurrected.  Sacrifice was mainstream in the north.

I think this is probably back to front.  The CotF worshipped the weirwoods because they formed a symbiotic-cultural relationship with them some time in their past with the Singers or other Children being enthroned in the weirwood roots to form the ancestral memory / cultural repository of the community.  There is no need for sacrifices to feed the weirwoods because the enthroned Singers are in effect that sacrifice but in a symbiotic rather than predatory relationship.  Other Singers might briefly pass a second life or the shadow of one in the ravens that were originally used as messenger birds by the CotF.

The First Men warred with the CotF and cut down the weirwoods as they knew they were important to their enemy and the source of their power. Eventually some humans converted to worshipping the weirwoods and they seem to have adopted or perhaps adapted human sacrifice (the Ironborn offer victims to The Drowned God, the Red Priests to R'hllor, so it's quite possible the First Men practiced human sacrifice before encountering the CotF) but in a sense by mimicking what they thought the Cotf were doing, or by "honouring the Gods" the only way they knew how.

But misunderstanding the practices of the CotF does not give The First Men the ability to create new (resurrected) "life" or a sacrificial victim the ability to become a warg and "live" a second life.  Cultural imitation or misplaced rites of worship by early First Men, magical Starks or otherwise, did not create The Others.

[Son of Man]

On 4/7/2024 at 5:49 AM, Club-foot cleft-lips said:

Wow, I really like this sort of topic. within philosophical debate regarding the nature of a god, their exists the concept of the conflict of how we can both have free will and god can be all knowing contradict, because god knowing all means we can only do what god knows we do, and one solution that is popular, is the idea that a god that existed outside of our universe and concept of time, created the whole of time at once, like making the entire an film real appear in their hand. so that way god can know everything that will happen, but everything that happened was a result of free will all happening at he same time, from the perspective of god. The idea of your painting definitely encapsulates that concept nicely, especially the realm of the dead, or the realm of god, existing out of time. very fun to think about.

two conflicting gods make it even more crazy to think about. maybe one exists in time and the other without, and their fight is a tug of war for who decides. idk.

I think that George sort of hints at something like this with Lyanna Stark and her relationship the Rheagar to be like that of Celtic Leanan Sídhe, fairly lovers that live short but inspiring lives. nights queen was probably a fairly lover, and they have likely mixed blood with many northern houses, or all given how starks until recently tended to marry northern spouses... well a lot of potential bastards from a lot of houses.

Rhaegar was not bold in personality.  He just made a bad call to fight Robert man to man and lost.  Lyanna and Arya are clones.  Ned called it the wolf's blood.  Wild and crazy live short lives. 

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

23 minutes ago, Son of Man said:

Rhaegar was not bold in personality.  He just made a bad call to fight Robert man to man and lost.  Lyanna and Arya are clones.  Ned called it the wolf's blood.  Wild and crazy live short lives. 

Lovers of Leanan sindhe arn't bold, but inspired (usually artistically). Rhaegar was a singer, and together they sang A Song of Ice and Fire. Not to mention the base of R&R's conflict was at least in ostent, a fight over Lyanna, so it kind of was his love of her that killed him.

Edited April 9 by Club-foot cleft-lips