New Kingdoms/Principalities/Provinces of Westeros

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

I whole heartedly believe that adding new centralized bases of control in certain areas would greatly increase the safety of the Crownlands. For example making Dragonstone, Driftmark, and part of Cracklaw's Point into an actual principality, ruled by the prince of Dragonstone. Another can be made out of the Dornish Marches in the Stormlands, with the houses sworn directly to the would be Prince of Summerhall. In addition, creating a force like the Gold Cloaks, but out of men-at-arms sworn to the various noble house, for each principality would be great (I don’t think summerhall needs it that much). Another force can be created to patrol the rest of the Crownlands and be sworn directly to the King. Also, taking some territory out of the jurisdiction of Harrenhal and putting underneath the Kings direct control would greatly help the Crownlands in term of food and wealth to help fund this effort.  Third, would be making a province by conquering the Stepstones and Tyrosh, and giving it to a third son. What do you guys think?

Edited April 2 by KingoftheRiversandtheHills

[The Hoare]

I imagine the lords would not like a more centralised kingdom

[Alden Rothack]

3 hours ago, The Hoare said:

I imagine the lords would not like a more centralised kingdom

I don't think it matters whether they would like it or not, a better question is whether such a thing is even possible, feudalism never existed out of people liking it, it existed because society was required to be organized from the local level up not the top down as later states managed.

[Alester Florent]

On 4/1/2024 at 7:42 PM, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

Third, would be making a province by conquering the Stepstones and Tyrosh

Good luck with that.

[KingStoneheart]

I suspected if Westeros attacked Tyrosh, it could be the one thing to unite the Disputed Lands and bring Myr and Lys to join forces and back Tyrosh

[House Cambodia]

20 minutes ago, KingStoneheart said:

I suspected if Westeros attacked Tyrosh, it could be the one thing to unite the Disputed Lands and bring Myr and Lys to join forces and back Tyrosh

The only thing worse than fighting companies of well-armed and disciplined sell-swords, is fighting companies of well-armed and disciplined sell-swords who are fighting for the freedom of their own lands.

[astarkchoice]

37 minutes ago, KingStoneheart said:

I suspected if Westeros attacked Tyrosh, it could be the one thing to unite the Disputed Lands and bring Myr and Lys to join forces and back Tyrosh

An agressive westeros taking essosi land would probably alarm others intk action

[Alden Rothack]

59 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

The only thing worse than fighting companies of well-armed and disciplined sell-swords, is fighting companies of well-armed and disciplined sell-swords who are fighting for the freedom of their own lands.

Have the three combined really got the means to fight westeros and win?

[House Cambodia]

1 minute ago, Alden Rothack said:

Have the three combined really got the means to fight westeros and win?

Never been tried. But factor in the logistics of Westerosi troops needing feeding and supplying in hostile territory where they'll likely have to lay seige to the cities for great lengths of time.

[Alden Rothack]

2 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Never been tried. But factor in the logistics of Westerosi troops needing feeding and supplying in hostile territory where they'll likely have to lay seige to the cities for great lengths of time.

Tricky, they are very good at that sort of thing and they have a lot of people.

[KingStoneheart]

3 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

Have the three combined really got the means to fight westeros and win?

The thing is that the three Disputed Lands cities don’t need to conquer Westeros, they just need to defend their lands which they would be able to do. The logistics of Westeros laying a successful attack and banding together as one army to do so would be incredibly difficult. This is not a rebellion where all of the Kingdoms are United against a mad king

[Alden Rothack]

1 minute ago, KingStoneheart said:

The thing is that the three Disputed Lands cities don’t need to conquer Westeros, they just need to defend their lands which they would be able to do. The logistics of Westeros laying a successful attack and banding together as one army to do so would be incredibly difficult. This is not a rebellion where all of the Kingdoms are United against a mad king

Not that they were united against the mad king

in fact mlost of the realms navies were either for the mad king or sat it out

However taking and holding the stepstones is something they have done and could do again, once done the next step would be made easier

Could the three cities really find enough men to maintain a war against the seven kingdoms

[astarkchoice]

12 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

Not that they were united against the mad king

in fact mlost of the realms navies were either for the mad king or sat it out

However taking and holding the stepstones is something they have done and could do again, once done the next step would be made easier

Could the three cities really find enough men to maintain a war against the seven kingdoms

Itl depend on a few factors  then including how much warning is given

1) if the other free cities choose to stay out of it..volantis, bravos, norovos, qohor , pentos and even little lorath ! Some may respond badly to westerosi agression if they attack tyrosh  and volantis may feel the stepstones could still be theirs! Quarth etc id say would be neutral give  they probably do a lot of trade with both sides! For any invasion to get off the ground  we have to assume the faceless men have 0 interest

 

2) if on their own how many sellsails can they find to contest the narrow sea as no invasion gets off the ground without that ! We know stannis found 25 lysene pirate galleys under saan and 40 smaller sellsail galleys!  The basilisk isles are swarming with pirates so may be awash with iron island levels of  ships+ fighters  to rent, quarths shipping volumes seems giant so who knows how many sellsail ships there are out there! We know the free cities are awash with minor banking clans to arrange or loan cash to arrange their service!

 

3)sellsword companies ! On here we estimated before there must be upwards of 50k  sellswords to buy for the golden company to make sense and not be an instawin for the normal 3 sisters warfare over the disputed lands. Stannis seemed to feel finding 20k would be a few weeks/months at most too!! We can assume whoever is invading from westeros the golden company wont miss their chance to interject and weaken the regime too!

 

4)extras : slavers bay has huge  forces for sale too but are far away  , there are non facrless men lesser assasin cults for hire and theres the weather etc.

Edited April 5 by astarkchoice

[Alden Rothack]

51 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Itl depend on a few factors  then including how much warning is given

1) if the other free cities choose to stay out of it..volantis, bravos, norovos, qohor , pentos and even little lorath ! Some may respond badlt to westerosi agression and volantis may feel the stepstones could still be theirs! Quarth etc id say would be neutral give  they probably do a lot of trade with both sides! For any invasion to get off the ground  we have to assume the faceless men have 0 interest

 

2) if on their own how many sellsails can they find to contest the narrow sea as no invasion gets off the ground without that ! We know stannis found 25 lysene pirate galleys under saan and 40 smaller sellsail galleys!  The basilisk isles are swarming with pirates so may be awash with iron island levels of  ships+ fighters  to rent, quarths shipping volumes seems giant so who knows how many sellsail ships there are out there! We know the free cities are awash with minor banking clans to arrange or loan cash to arrange their service!

Westerosi has plenty of ships

3)sellsword companies ! On here we estimated before there must be upwards of 50k  sellswords to buy for the golden company to make sense and not be an instawin for the normal 3 sisters warfare over the disputed lands. Stannis seemed to feel finding 20k would be a few weeks/months at most too!! We can assume whoever is invading from westeros the golden company wont miss their chance to interject and weaken the regime too!

I agree there must be a lot of sellswords, though of varying quality and not used to work together well

4)extras : slavers bay has huge  forces for sale too bur are far away  , there are lesser assasin cults for hire and theres the weather etc.

relying on sellswords and sellsails is risky and slave soldiers have their own issues

i'm betting on the westerosi

[astarkchoice]

27 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

relying on sellswords and sellsails is risky and slave soldiers have their own issues

i'm betting on the westerosi

A naval invasion could be tricky though in the face of a counter navy and a waiting professional force. 

 

Slave troops are tricky yes but they seem to be 3 varities unsullied,  mass fastly raised conscripts 'not worth the swords they are given'   and of course the ones the slavers rely on as their city guards/armed forces ie probably well treated and as good as westerosi infantry , loyal enough to supress their fellow slaves to maintain their cushy status quo! 

When you think on it for example astopor produces unsullied but theres no reason they cant produce large numbers of quality troops instead  ie use their common sense  to produce somethng in between green consript  like the clanker lords send out and the  stupidly overtrained and unnecessarily castrated unsullied!  Shit only 1 in 3 survive so thats like 21k non eunuch  a year troops they could pump out if they didnt put them through such stupidly excessive training!!!

[Alden Rothack]

20 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

A naval invasion could be tricky though in the face of a counter navy and a waiting professional force. 

 

Slave troops are tricky yes but they seem to be 3 varities unsullied,  mass fastly raised conscripts 'not worth the swords they are given'   and of course the ones the slavers rely on as their city guards/armed forces ie probably well treated and as good as westerosi infantry , loyal enough to supress their fellow slaves to maintain their cushy status quo! 

When you think on it for example astopor produces unsullied but theres no reason they cant produce large numbers of quality troops instead  ie use their common sense  to produce somethng in between green consript  like the clanker lords send out and the  stupidly overtrained and unnecessarily castrated unsullied!  Shit only 1 in 3 survive so thats like 21k non eunuch  a year troops they could pump out if they didnt put them through such stupidly excessive training!!!

good quality and loyal troops are very hard to do without having a strong social investment in the system that employs them. essos seems to favour one or the other rather than going for both, its not unknown for that to happen

the thing about sense is isn't actually very common

the presence of both the unsullied and large amounts of rabble suggests that whoever got the sense in essos it wasn't the people in charge.

westeros by contrast seems to go for both, which is why i'm betting on them

[astarkchoice]

10 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

good quality and loyal troops are very hard to do without having a strong social investment in the system that employs them. essos seems to favour one or the other rather than going for both, its not unknown for that to happen

the thing about sense is isn't actually very common

the presence of both the unsullied and large amounts of rabble suggests that whoever got the sense in essos it wasn't the people in charge.

westeros by contrast seems to go for both, which is why i'm betting on them

Hmm could be but the essosi mercs im.assuming most will have come from the free cities so will have bonds to them or at least some of their leaders will.

 

Yeah the fact tyrosh has been sacked before rests against them but westeros has to do a naval invasion which in the face of mercs, sellsails ,slave armies and the logsitics involved could be too much

 

Plus again that all depends on of the other free cities decide to stay neutral!

If bravos is agaisnt it then it simply isnt happening, volantis can make it extremely hard but not impossible and the smaller free cities could tip the balance too

[Alden Rothack]

53 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Hmm could be but the essosi mercs im.assuming most will have come from the free cities so will have bonds to them or at least some of their leaders will.

 

Yeah the fact tyrosh has been sacked before rests against them but westeros has to do a naval invasion which in the face of mercs, sellsails ,slave armies and the logsitics involved could be too much

 

Plus again that all depends on of the other free cities decide to stay neutral!

If bravos is agaisnt it then it simply isnt happening, volantis can make it extremely hard but not impossible and the smaller free cities could tip the balance too

Yes it depend on if its just the three or everyone

I can't see the seven kingdoms wanting to fight everyone

[astarkchoice]

5 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Yes it depend on if its just the three or everyone

I can't see the seven kingdoms wanting to fight everyone

They have made.it clear the disputed lands are theirs (one of theirs) so everyone else staying out could def happen so it would depend on westeros commitment.

The 3 cities are rich but theres only so much merc manpower that would be available at any one time! We can assume if theres no disputed wars on most merc manpower would be split up on leave around the free cities or far east where theres active large scale warfare (yi-to civil war)  the sellsails will be largely far east in the basilisk isles or raiding summer isles etc. All would take time is assemble.

Theres a small chance of hiring a passing khalassar whos mobility and archers would make them excellent for dealing with seaborne invaders but they havent the patience to wait around weeks or even months to patrol long seafronts inncase of invasion.

 

That said a utterly united westeros is an adapable military   beast! The ironborn make perfect naval raiding force to go 1st

[Alden Rothack]

23 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

They have made.it clear the disputed lands are theirs (one of theirs) so everyone else staying out could def happen so it would depend on westeros commitment.

The 3 cities are rich but theres only so much merc manpower that would be available at any one time! We can assume if theres no disputed wars on most merc manpower would be split up on leave around the free cities or far east where theres active large scale warfare (yi-to civil war)  the sellsails will be largely far east in the basilisk isles or raiding summer isles etc. All would take time is assemble.

yeah, honestly it depends heavily on whether they start gathering before the invasion does or after.

 

Theres a small chance of hiring a passing khalassar whos mobility and archers would make them excellent for dealing with seaborne invaders but they havent the patience to wait around weeks or even months to patrol long seafronts inncase of invasion.

 

That said a utterly united westeros is an adapable military   beast! The ironborn make perfect naval raiding force to go 1st

the ironborn vs the dothraki would an interesting fight, particularly as both sides have archers