What actually started the original Long Night?

[Ring3r]

Another long one, I know....

 

There's only one myth that actually claims to explain what caused the Long Night - that of the Bloodstone Emperor.  Everyone else's myths just say that it happened.

Assume that's broadly accurate and he really did practice all those horrible things, cannibalism, blood sacrifice, all of that...why would that result in the Others?  I have a theory.

In Essos, we have the Shade of the Evening trees, mirror images of Westeros' Weirwoods, with similar mind altering powers....and we have old stories of Children-like inhabitants as well.  When Dany visits the House of the Undying, GRRM specifically mentions that it is surrounded by a grove of these trees...the imagery sounds suspiciously similar to the grove we know is on the Isle of Faces.

What if the Bloodstone Emperor CAUSED the Black Stone that he worshipped to fall from the sky, using powerful bloodmagic rituals?  I would say that, if that thing landed anywhere....it would have been Stygai, where even Shadowbinders fear to go.  It could be the cause of the whole city of Assai being turned to oily black stone that "drinks the light."  The city is directly downriver from Stygai....

Stygai is on the polar opposite side of the known world from the Lands of Always Winter...where a lot of people have theorized there may be another Weirwood grove, where the others were created.  What if there's another, in Stygai?  What if the Black Stone corrupted that grove, and the corruption began to spread across the continent of essos?  Black oily stone is destribed as "drinking the light," EXACTLY the same phrase used to describe the Shade Trees around the House of the Undying.

What if the Children, far off in Westeros, could sense the corruption spreading and took drastic measures, partnering with the First Men to create the Others to defeat the Great Empire of the Dawn?  It would explain why they're tailor-made to fight humans. It seems likely that the Others made it part-way into Essos, since the Royne actually completely froze. None of the Long Night stories from the Far East (other side of Bone Mountains) mention cold...only darkness.  And GRRM has specifically said that the Lands of Always Winter do not connect to Essos.  The Others had to get there somehow....so they must have done so PRIOR to the Hammer of the Waters.

What if, knowing that the Others couldn't stop the spreading corruption of the Weirwood network, the Children called down the Hammer of the Waters to sever the root network - essentially amputating half of the Weirwood network to save what was left?

The threat of corruption/extinction averted, the Children could have retreated to the North, and from there we get the story of the Last Hero, who they gifted with the knowledge to defeat the now out-of-control Others who remained...possibly on both sides of the narrow sea, since both continents have myths of a hero with a magical sword.  Maybe Lightbringer drove back the others AND ended the Great Empire?  It sounds like it would be effective against both - the Others' magic, as well as the "light-drinking" magic of the Bloodstone Emperor.  Ice and fire.....just like a certain Jon we know.....

That sequence of events at least makes sense to me.  The Hammer of the Waters never made sense as a way to stop the First Men, IMO.  They had ships and a large, established population.  The Pact didn't make sense either, happening out of nowhere right at the height of the war - I think the order of the two events got flipped.  The First Men and Children formed the Pact...and then later cooperated during the Long Night, since by that time they shared the Weirwood religion.  We know they were on the same side during, and after, the Long Night.

And, IF that sequence of events is roughly correct, it would explain one of the major mysteries in the novels: Why did the Others return?

The most common theory for what woke the others is the Tragedy at Summerhall. That event also roughly lines up with when Craster first began sacrificing his sons - .  I think it's safe to say the Others returned around that time.

But....there's another event that occurred only 3 years before the Tragedy: The birth of Euron Greyjoy.  Euron is a CLEAR Bloodstone Emperor analog.  He committed blood betrayal, throwing down his elder brother (literally....)  And he's preparing to perform some kind of massive blood-magic ritual sacrifice at Old Town, to try and make himself a God.  He's heavily imbibed the Shade of the Evening.  It also seems likely that he's had some contact through the Weirwood net, as he describes having visions identical to Bran had when Bloodraven reached out to him.  Bloodraven entering the weirwood network also neatly lines up, in timeline, to when Euron would have been about Bran's age.  I think he reached out and did NOT like what he saw.....and it woke the Trees.

TL/DR: I think the Others returned because they were made aware, through the Weirwood network, of the return of the original enemy they were created to fight.  I think Euron has learned of the ritual the original Bloodstone Emperor performed, via his imbibing of the Shade of the Evening, and he's planning on duplicating it.  Only this time, he'll be wearing Valyrian Steel armor....likely making him impervious to the Others' weapons.  And he'll have a dragon as well, which is perfect against wights.

Edited May 2 by Ring3r
clarity

[The Lord of the Crossing]

The blood betrayal allegedly caused the long night.  But that happened in Essos.  Betrayal and treason are bad in general and considered negative within the framework of the overall story.  It is likely similar to the explanation that Adam and Eve eating the apple was the cause of the expulsion from the garden.  It is an interesting tale but the story in Westeros is only a parallel.  Look to Bran's dreams.  His ancestors were worshiping trees and making human sacrifices to the gods.  Which in reality were Greenseers tricking gullible humans to give them blood meals. 

Euron is Black Harren.  He serves the same role as he did in his past life. I have no doubts at all that he will conquer the Reach, Westerlands, and Riverlands.  Daenerys is Aegon returned.  She will do to Euron what Aegon did to Black Harren.  Roast him with dragon fire. 

Jon Snow is the Nights' King returned again.  Arya will be his corpse bride.  Bran and the Otherswill supply the magic they need to return Jon back to life and rule the wall as the NK.

 

[Craving Peaches]

Hey @Ring3r, I haven't seen you in a while.

Your suggestion that the Bloodstone Emperor caused the black stone to fall in the first place is interesting. I hadn't thought about that before. If anything, it could make his character even more villainous, since he actively sought out an evil influence rather than potentially being corrupted by it after it fell. I always think that the Bloodstone Emperor must be inspired, at least in part, by the Roman Emperor Elagabalus, who also worshipped a stone that fell from the sky and had some unsavoury habits (although there is also the possibility this was made up/exaggerated to make him seem worse).

Elagabalus (from the Wikipedia page):

Quote

Later historians suggest Elagabalus showed a disregard for Roman religious traditions and sexual taboos. He replaced the traditional head of the Roman pantheon, Jupiter, with the deity Elagabal, of whom he had been high priest. He forced leading members of Rome's government to participate in religious rites celebrating this deity, presiding over them in person. He married four women, including a Vestal Virgin, in addition to lavishing favours on male courtiers thought to have been his lovers.^[5][6] He was also reported to have prostituted himself.^[7]

Bloodstone Emperor (from the ASoIaF wiki):

Quote

The Bloodstone Emperor's reign was a reign of terror. His usurpation became known as the Blood Betrayal in the annals of the Further East, which claim that the act of usurping his sister's throne ushered in the Long Night. He practiced torture, dark arts, and necromancy. He enslaved his own people, took a tiger-woman for wife, feasted on human flesh and cast down the true gods of Yi Ti to worship a black stone that fell from the sky.^[1] Some scholars believe him to have been the first High Priest of the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom.^[1]

The God Elagabalus was high priest of (from the Wikipedia page):

Quote

A temple called the Elagabalium was built on the east face of the Palatine Hill to house the holy stone of the Emesa temple, a black conical meteorite.^[12] Herodian writes of that stone:

This stone is worshipped as though it were sent from heaven; on it there are some small projecting pieces and markings that are pointed out, which the people would like to believe are a rough picture of the sun, because this is how they see them.^[13]

I would question whether the Shade of the Evening trees are really corrupted though. Ingesting their sap seems to have the same effect as ingesting Weirwood sap, e.g. visions. They just seem like the Essos version of Weirwoods to me. There are also suggestions that nothing is growing in Asshai/Stygai, which would include Shade of the Evening trees, if they were a symptom of the corruption I might expect to see more of them there.

[Ring3r]

12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Hey @Ring3r, I haven't seen you in a while.

Your suggestion that the Bloodstone Emperor caused the black stone to fall in the first place is interesting. I hadn't thought about that before. If anything, it could make his character even more villainous, since he actively sought out an evil influence rather than potentially being corrupted by it after it fell. I always think that the Bloodstone Emperor must be inspired, at least in part, by the Roman Emperor Elagabalus, who also worshipped a stone that fell from the sky and had some unsavoury habits (although there is also the possibility this was made up/exaggerated to make him seem worse).

I would question whether the Shade of the Evening trees are really corrupted though. Ingesting their sap seems to have the same effect as ingesting Weirwood sap, e.g. visions. They just seem like the Essos version of Weirwoods to me. There are also suggestions that nothing is growing in Asshai/Stygai, which would include Shade of the Evening trees, if they were a symptom of the corruption I might expect to see more of them there.

Oh he's definitely partly based on Elagabalus.  Ancient Egypt provides a lot of parallels too.  The ancient Egyptians worshiped meteorites, one in particular called the BenBen stone, and meteorites were the original source for their metalwork....a big parallel with what might be going on with Lightbringer/Dawn/Bloodstone Emperor.

As for whether the Shade trees are corrupted.....I have no proof, of course, but all the parallels to Weirwoods are dark and inverted.  Their sap gives similar visions/abilities as the weirwoods, although all those visions seem to have a very dark twist to them, and all the people associated with them (Warlocks, Euron) are openly evil.  They're the exact inverse color as weirwoods. Dany notes, as she walks through the Shade grove around the House of the Undying that it is "unusually dark."  Very much like the trees are drinking the light, just as the stones in Assai do.  It's also suspicious that there are zero Weirwoods in Essos and zero Shade trees in Westeros, considering we know they were connected via a very large land bridge for most of history.

As for nothing growing in Assai, that's true.  But we've got no idea at all what's inside the city of Stygai.  If Stygai were in fact the Royal Capital...it might make sense for it to have some version of a Godswood, even that far back in time.

For me, the biggest clue is Euron himself.  He's drinking Shade of the Evening all the time and it's resulted in him emulating everything we know about the Bloodstone Emperor.  I have to think the trees are somehow linked to the original stone that the Bloodstone emperor took his name from.  Euron didn't learn the ritual that he's preparing for in Winds of Winter from nowhere.

Conjecture....but a lot of things line up and start to make sense if the initial conceit of Shade trees being corrupt Weirwoods is taken as correct.   Hopefully we won't have to wait for A Dream of Spring for Bran to get visions that far back.

[TheBlackSwan]

The Long Night is an important mystery and I can't see Martin revealing its origin in a spin-off, an origin linked to a character, an empire never mentioned in the books and a region that no character will ever set foot in.

The Long Night is also linked to the Others and the Others weren't in Essos, so that's another reason why I doubt the Long Night was triggered by an event in Essos that coincides with the Others invading Westeros.

For Stygai, I think Alabastur made a good case for it being a city of the Singers.
It is in the Valley of Shadows, a valley plunged into constant darkness, so that the people who lived there had to be blind, like the fish in the river that flows through it, or be able to see in the dark.
It's also call the corpse city and the Shadowbinders, who wears masks to hide their faces from the gods,  are afraid of the place.
In ADWD we learn that the Singers live in caves filled with corpses, the greenseers are also called "corpses", the Singers can see in the dark, the cave has a river with blind fish.
Melisandre sees Bloodraven in a vision and realises he can see her; she thinks he's a god.
So, if the Greens can look back on people having visions, it would make sense for the Shadowbinders to wear masks to hide their faces from them.

[WATDUDEYEET]

Lucifer Means Lightbringer had a whole theory series about this. The gist goes that Asshai was originally the grand capital of a pre-Valyrian Dragonlord Empire civilization spanning the known world, the Great Empire of the Dawn.

 

They were the ones who built the Five Forts and the fortress on Battle Island (made of black stone but distinct from the evil oily black stone and more similar to Valyria's fused black stone created from dragonfire but primitive). It would also explain why the city is considered to have existed since before recorded history and apparent source of origin for dragons (which Bran's vision from the first book seems to corroborate), and where the Hightowers & Daynes came from (who have Valyrian features but are not from Valyria and are also associated with the Dawn)

 

But then the Bloodstone Emperor ursurped his older sister as ruler of the Empire, ushering in the Long Night (and there may be some parallels to myths like the Azor Ahai legend and the Qartheen belief that dragons were hatched from the cracking of a second moon).

 

Presumably the Bloodstone Emperor sacrificed his sister and ended up summoning the meteor that was made up of the oily black stone (likely in Stygai as another user here pointed out) and this specifically was what caused the Long Night. It ended up corrupting the capital Asshai, maybe it infected the existing structures or maybe the Emperor simply had the entire city rebuilt with the material. The Long Night was said to last a generation (over 20-30 years) so it's possible that the empire declined over time instead of collapsing immediately.

 

During that period, said oily blackstone was deposited around the world, either fragments from the crash or due to the Emperor's decree. It's possible that Yeen was originally a GEOTD colony that obviously went wrong due to the materials they used. If you want to get even more speculative, perhaps the COTF used the oily black stone to create the Others, corrupting men with very dark magic to create the perfect weapons.

 

As for how the Long Night ended? It seems more like the work of multiple heroes who had seperate adventures to save their respective lands according to the legends. The Shadowlands never recovered though, it still seems to be suffering from the symptoms of the Long Night (always dark even during the brightest day, monster attacks). Stygai is still in a state similar to Valyria.

 

This is all just speculation though but it's pretty fun to think about.

 

[Ring3r]

On 5/3/2024 at 11:40 AM, WATDUDEYEET said:

Lucifer Means Lightbringer had a whole theory series about this. The gist goes that Asshai was originally the grand capital of a pre-Valyrian Dragonlord Empire civilization spanning the known world, the Great Empire of the Dawn.

 

They were the ones who built the Five Forts and the fortress on Battle Island (made of black stone but distinct from the evil oily black stone and more similar to Valyria's fused black stone created from dragonfire but primitive). It would also explain why the city is considered to have existed since before recorded history and apparent source of origin for dragons (which Bran's vision from the first book seems to corroborate), and where the Hightowers & Daynes came from (who have Valyrian features but are not from Valyria and are also associated with the Dawn)

 

But then the Bloodstone Emperor ursurped his older sister as ruler of the Empire, ushering in the Long Night (and there may be some parallels to myths like the Azor Ahai legend and the Qartheen belief that dragons were hatched from the cracking of a second moon).

 

Presumably the Bloodstone Emperor sacrificed his sister and ended up summoning the meteor that was made up of the oily black stone (likely in Stygai as another user here pointed out) and this specifically was what caused the Long Night. It ended up corrupting the capital Asshai, maybe it infected the existing structures or maybe the Emperor simply had the entire city rebuilt with the material. The Long Night was said to last a generation (over 20-30 years) so it's possible that the empire declined over time instead of collapsing immediately.

 

During that period, said oily blackstone was deposited around the world, either fragments from the crash or due to the Emperor's decree. It's possible that Yeen was originally a GEOTD colony that obviously went wrong due to the materials they used. If you want to get even more speculative, perhaps the COTF used the oily black stone to create the Others, corrupting men with very dark magic to create the perfect weapons.

 

As for how the Long Night ended? It seems more like the work of multiple heroes who had seperate adventures to save their respective lands according to the legends. The Shadowlands never recovered though, it still seems to be suffering from the symptoms of the Long Night (always dark even during the brightest day, monster attacks). Stygai is still in a state similar to Valyria.

 

This is all just speculation though but it's pretty fun to think about.

 

I haven't watched LML in a few years.  Great insights on his part, just....eh.  I won't get into it, that's not for here.  Interesting that he had similar ideas tho.

I suppose, in the end, it boils down to WHY the others were created.  They appear to exist prior to dragons. What were they designed to fight, if not the army of the Bloodstone Emperor?

A mystery, i suppose.

[House Cambodia]

On 5/3/2024 at 11:40 PM, WATDUDEYEET said:

perhaps the COTF used the oily black stone to create the Others, corrupting men with very dark magic to create the perfect weapons.

That raises an intriguing thought I've never seen before - What if what Bran saw in his vision wasn't what he thought he saw? He thought he saw a COTF stuck a piece of dragonglass in the man - hard, sharp, black. What if it was actually a shard of oily black stone?