Dune- The Letdown

[Mackaxx]

And isnt an amazing achievement. Its just us doing the natural selection bit for nature, without being concious of it.

[Kalbear]

Okay, fine. What advances have we made in the last 100,000 years of...oh, having cities. Or architecture. Or language, writing. How many advances have we made since we discovered how to fly?

That's the thing; advancement doesn't stagnate once it starts happening. While 10,000 years is a blip when you're talking about timelines of human existence, the important thing isn't that it's 10,000 years - the important thing is that it is the most recent 10,000 years, and specifically the most recent 10,000 years of advancement.

Though the problem I have with it isn't that it isn't possible; it's that Herbert didn't establish how Leto kept that level of technological and cultural stagnation particularly well.

[Mackaxx]

As for stagnation, consider. Were currently riding the wave right, development wise, how long until a human cant learn enough in his lifetime to establish new technology.

It will get to a stage where from day one you are educated say, biochemistry, and a specific field of it too, just to get up to speed with the cutting edge by the time you reach your 40s.

All leto has to do is fuck with the education system. Send it back to what it was in those times of slow development, or, if shit has gotten pretty complicated tech wise, send it back to like it is now.

[Monboddo]

Going by memory - been years since I read through the entire series - but the civilization Leto II came to dominate had been anti-science for quite some time. The only pro-scientific elements of that interstellar culture, like the Tleilaxu and the Ixians were kept carefully segregated.

Thus it wouldn't be hard for Leto II to keep a lid on things, as it were.

(If memory serves, the pre-Butlerian Jihad civilization was ferociously advanced, or so it was implied. The Butlerian Jihad didn't just kill off thinking machines.)

[Kalbear]

It's not just science that can advance; it's culture. It's language and values. Don't think about it on a technological level, think of it on a cultural level. Think about how hard it is to keep a culture stagnant even if it's paleolithic - now combine this with a galaxy-spanning empire that has, at best, very tenuous forced control. Yes, Leto has advantages here since he sees all and knows all, but at the same time he can't prevent things from happening; he can only react to their happening. Why wouldn't other religions, other values, other languages shine? Why wouldn't there be the diaspora we see later just from all these worlds being separate from each other?

[Mackaxx]

Now, culture for a start has changed. Compare what we have in the dune novels to what we have in god emperor. Its been a controlled change.

And then, we add one essential thing you have overlooked. This isnt reality, its science fiction. This is science fiction, Leto CAN maintain things as we are told Leto can. We dont know the intricacies of how the melange works, we dont know how the spaceships fly, we dont know how the helicopters thingies fly, or why the shield thingies go kapow when they get hit by lasers. We dont complain though, as apparently thats ok in science fiction.

Why is it when theres a societal thing going on do people get all up on their high philosophical horse.

The whole idea of it is the 'idea' the 'what it'. People need to get over only applying this to science and allow writers of fiction to mess with other stuff and explore the idea of it all.

Melange aiding space flight is ridiculous, but, it seems were ok with it and can go, well, maybe its possible.

Leto controlling the known galaxy is ridiculous too, but, why arnt we ok with that too? Reasons are given, hell, even more reasons than for how the spice works.

All your why woudln't this happen, why wouldn't that happen, I could reel off counters. I'd be making shit up as I dont know the full story of this fictional character (No one does, we make assumptions) and you'd be making shit up too.

Explore the what if. You dont seem to have a problem with exploring it with regard to sciency science, but not social science.

I mean, geez, herberts actually gone to the trouble of making this all powerful god dude who can potentially control everything, forever. Its not like he has just made some wanky government or something which would be even less likely to maintain this. What more must an author do to explore this subject without criticism?

[Monboddo]

In 'God Emperor' we're shown the very end of his reign and even then there are rebellious elements. I'm assuming that in the beginning there were tremendous wars before everyone accepted him, even nominally, as a god and as an emperor. Centuries and centuries.

Mmm . . . the Guild were cowards, and the Tleilaxu and the Ixians were long used to segregation. I'm not sure how to classify the Bene Gesserit.

[Kalbear]

I'm willing to believe that there exists some explanation for why human culture is so incredibly stagnant; what I'm complaining about is that we don't actually see it or even hint at it. Without that structure it's hard to maintain disbelief.

And no, I don't like doing 'what if' for social science because I have a lot more personal experience in social science. It's the difference between buying a fantasy novel and buying a fiction novel; if the fiction novel is totally out of the realm of believability, I'll stop buying into it.

Not that this really mattered a huge amount for me. I didn't like God-Emperor because I thought it was fucking dull, I couldn't stand any of the characters and I just didn't care about the plight of humanity. That, and Herbert's writing sucked balls by comparison to Dune. Yeah, it was implausible too, but all those other things were what made me dislike it.

[Monboddo]

I believe we were shown, subtly, the stagnation in all the novels. No one was interested or had any concept anymore of scientific progress. There was interest in technology, but that is not the same thing.

The exceptions being the Guild, the Tleilaxu, and the Ixians. The Bene Gesserit struck me as ambivalent and opportunistic, the Tleilaxu as revealed in the last book a ferociously imperialistic/religious civilization.

[oba]

I believe we were shown, subtly, the stagnation in all the novels. No one was interested or had any concept anymore of scientific progress. There was interest in technology, but that is not the same thing.

It's also been a while for me since I read the first 4 books. As someone else pointed out, the culture we're shown in the original novel is one that's fundamentally opposed to technological progress. Post- Butlerian Jihad it was the limits of human potential that were explored. That's a major premise of the original novel and one of the many reasons melange is critical to space travel.

This was already a society in which certain avenues of exploration and innovation were repressed or at least very carefully monitored (Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind, etc.)

[Mackaxx]

And no, I don't like doing 'what if' for social science because I have a lot more personal experience in social science. It's the difference between buying a fantasy novel and buying a fiction novel; if the fiction novel is totally out of the realm of believability, I'll stop buying into it.

Not that this really mattered a huge amount for me. I didn't like God-Emperor because I thought it was fucking dull, I couldn't stand any of the characters and I just didn't care about the plight of humanity. That, and Herbert's writing sucked balls by comparison to Dune. Yeah, it was implausible too, but all those other things were what made me dislike it.

Im heavily experienced with science but have learnt to take science fiction with a grain of salt, as the point is exploring the what if.

I guess ive got less of a problem with social stuff than you. If you get over it though things will be much more fun.

Starship troopers is another example of a book where people have trouble getting off their high horse.

The dull thing fine, the writing be average sure, they are things i can agree with to a different extent. Criticism of the impossibility of the setting though, nope, not getting on board there.

[zach]

I remember being really disappointed in the later books because paul was revealed to be such a fuck-up, and every other character was dead (or, like his sister, turned out to be an even bigger fuck-up). and I didn't feel like this was really foreshadowed at all, it was more that herbert changed the story's direction and retroactively changed his character.

it's been a while since I've read them, though, and I've never gotten past god-emperor.

[Tears of Lys]

Actually, this thread makes me want to read God Emperor again. It's been eons since I've read any of the Dune books. Time to go back and see if they still hold up after GRRM. Although, I have been reading "Path of Daggers" lately. Hmm... Maybe not a true test.

Paul had to be a fuck-up. Where else was there for his character to go?

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

God-Emperor and Dictator-for-Life?

[Demonblade]

It's not just science that can advance; it's culture. It's language and values. Don't think about it on a technological level, think of it on a cultural level. Think about how hard it is to keep a culture stagnant even if it's paleolithic - now combine this with a galaxy-spanning empire that has, at best, very tenuous forced control. Yes, Leto has advantages here since he sees all and knows all, but at the same time he can't prevent things from happening; he can only react to their happening. Why wouldn't other religions, other values, other languages shine? Why wouldn't there be the diaspora we see later just from all these worlds being separate from each other?

Didn't Egyptian culture and society exist for something like 3,500 years with more or less the same technology? Advancement only comes when society requires it. And by the time of God Emperor, as stated before, it was something like 3,000 years after Children of Dune. Leto had a huge religious following when he came into power, thanks to his father. Add in an undisputed military power at his disposal and any religious contender has no chance to flourish. Paul's empire killed billions of people in pursuit of dominance over the universe. With that kind of manpower at Leto's disposal, who had no opposition throughout his reign, what do you think would happen to anybody or anything that might threaten it? Leto having complete control of education and religion throughout his domain is one of the things I believe that could most realistically happen, IMO.

[Tears of Lys]

God-Emperor and Dictator-for-Life?

The End.

[Kalbear]

Didn't Egyptian culture and society exist for something like 3,500 years with more or less the same technology?

Not really. Egyptian culture evolved and changed quite a bit from early Egyptian times to later Egyptian times. They didn't have any technological revolutions compared to some other cultures, but ship building, stonework, and art changed markedly over the empire's lifetime. Farming appears to have improved some too, probably because of better use of primitive calendars.

Egypt was one country. A lot of their change was because of other people trading and interacting with them. That's something we should see in Dune, given the lack of FTL communication and in general small amounts of trade between planets. Planets should start evolving a bit differently from each other. We should see cultural shifts from one world to the next, and those will become more and more pronounced after time. It's possible that Leto could control everything that was a threat - but it's hard to imagine that he could totally stop any and all cultural change throughout a galaxy without some mechanism. It's that mechanism that Herbert doesn't really explain to my satisfaction.

[Demonblade]

Whatever technological advances Egypt had over its three and a half thousand years of existence is small compared to, say, western civilization's three and a half hundred years of dominance. My point is that Egypt essentially stayed the same throughout most of its existence. The reasons for it vary, but what is clear is that when required, Egypt did evolve. But only when Egypt required it. Culture and religion played a hugely important role in Egyptian culture. Technology was further behind in the minds of the average Egyptian.

[Galactus]

And isnt an amazing achievement. Its just us doing the natural selection bit for nature, without being concious of it.

I never said it was an amazing achievement, just something that really can't be speeded up (at least not unitl you've actually reached a certain level)

[lokisnow]

Yes, Leto has advantages here since he sees all and knows all, but at the same time he can't prevent things from happening; he can only react to their happening.

Um that was the point of Leto's prescience, he was able to prevent sthings from happening. basically because he went farther into prescience than Paul, he was able to steer the universe away from the disaster Paul's direction was taking them towards. Paul's direction looked good, because Paul found the thought of 3000 years of stagnation, absolute control and abandoning his humanity an absolutely horrifying direction for the universe to go on. Leto found it horrifying as well, but accepted it because the long term results would be much worse if Paul's course were pursued, results Paul never saw.

As for the social cultural thing, Fedayeen. With enough secret police and religious fanatics spread around the universe you can enforce cultural uniformity (if not acceptance) and once you've trained a generation or two, the indoctrination sets in and they'll be less and less of a cultural opposition towards Leto, because Leto has become ingrained into the fabric of culture. What's more, it's easy to maintain a level of fanaticism with his secret police/jihadists because they can actually see hear and touch their God, and he is certifiably supernatural in his abilities (and has sacrificed his humanity) having the ability to indoctrinate his fanatics personally would be invaluable to maintaining a consistent monarchy and religion.

What's more Leto was subtly introducing technological advances into the culture over a long period of time, the level of technology in GEoD is quite advanced compared to that of the first three books.

And the ornithopters work by a giant clam-like muscle, they're not mechanical, they're more bird like, the wings flap. likewise I believe the laz guns and shields are produced by biological processes rather than mechanistic ones.