Top Tier Fighters.

[Tetyr]

So mighty that he got killed by some guy from the NW who got only one arm ^^

[Heretic]

So mighty that he got killed by some guy from the NW who got only one arm ^^

That is such a fair and balanced acount of events, thank you for making that clear to me. Suddenly I understand the reasons why the bickering in the wolfdream thread is still going alot better.

[Fatuous]

Melee Fighting is a combination of strength, speed and skill. Certain combinations can be other combinations {or at least think they can beat them}. For example, Robert's strength and skill certainly beat Rhaeger's skill and speed, as well as Rhaeger.

Some comments:

Gregor Clegane's strength was off the charts and he certainly had the skill to back it up. But if Sandor was the better fighter, wouldn't he have killed him before the Red Viper did? No, Sandor clearly didn't have enough speed to do it. I would rank these two as equals, with Sandor having the edge in speed, of course.

Syrio was fast, possibly the fastest and he had no lack of skill. No strength worth mentioning and that was his downfall. But he felt great fightes didn't need strength.

Jaime Lannister had one of the best combination of strength, speed and skill, which he proved in the Whispering Woods.

Brienne is a bit different. She has greater strength, good skill and decent speed. In her battle with Jaime, she wasn't trying to beat him, she just wanted to tire him out {remember the chains?}, to outlast him. But in the melee to win her Blue Cloak, she proved her mettle and her strength. I would put her on par with the old Jaime, really.

[CelticBrennus]

But since we are told that valarian steel more or less negates armour anyone fighting these people in armour are just weighted down by the armour without the benefits. Thus, toast vs syrio and the like.

Where are we told that it negates armor? Sure, it is sharper, and lighter then steel, but that doesnt turn it into a light saber or anything here.

This argument obviously accepts the books universe. In real life armour is totally useless for duelling at the skillevels we are discussing, imho.

Absolutely, totally incorrect. Dueling was done wearing the best armor one could buy for as long as armor was commonly used - being prior to the widespread introduction of gunpower.

The only time you would fight without armor, is if you didnt have a chance to put it on.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Lalaing.htm

Here is one interesting article detailing the too short life of the RL version of Jaime Lannister.

Or see this account of a Judicial duel

http://www.thearma.org/essays/DOTC.htm

[Heretic]

Where are we told that it negates armor? Sure, it is sharper, and lighter then steel, but that doesnt turn it into a light saber or anything here.

ok, but at one point it cuts through ringmail like it was cloth.

Absolutely, totally incorrect. Dueling was done wearing the best armor one could buy for as long as armor was commonly used - being prior to the widespread introduction of gunpower.

The only time you would fight without armor, is if you didnt have a chance to put it on.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/Lalaing.htm

Here is one interesting article detailing the too short life of the RL version of Jaime Lannister.

Or see this account of a Judicial duel

http://www.thearma.org/essays/DOTC.htm

Maybe take that up with Morihei Ueshiba.

[Tetyr]

That is such a fair and balanced acount of events, thank you for making that clear to me. Suddenly I understand the reasons why the bickering in the wolfdream thread is still going alot better.

An answer worthy of the comment made... taking giants into account when considering top tier fighters is imo not the right thing to do. An addition, we do not know whether a skilled fighter would be able to slay one of them.

[CelticBrennus]

Maybe take that up with Morihei Ueshiba.

Well, considering that he lived about 5 centuries too late, and specialized in things from the wrong hemisphere to be anywhere near an expert in this sort of stuff, I fail to see your point here.

ok, but at one point it cuts through ringmail like it was cloth.

Ringmail =/= plate armor used by nobles, let alone maile.

[Ran]

We've a couple accounts of what Valyrian steel weapons can do against people in plate armor (well, one is plate armor for sure, the other isn't clear). First, the Little Lion fought a Lannister king (Lancel IV or Lancel V), who was using Brightroar. Ser Wilbert took a "dozen grievous wounds", but none of them immediately lethal, until the end when he was "cut near in half" (NOTE: All quotes from the text, and should be taken with a bit of salt).

The other example is Ser Arthur Dayne's contest against the Smiling Knight -- Dawn isn't Valyrian steel, but clearly it has similar properties -- and there, again, the Smiling Knight takes a number of wounds but none of them are fatal. Assuming he was wearing plate, it again suggests that Valyrian steel (or similar blades to it) aren't able to just ignore plate armor as if it wasn't there.

It seems that Valyrian steel can't readily slice straight through plate armor as if it wasn't there. That said, it certainly does provide a significant advantage, because it can actually pierce plate at all with swings, which (generally speaking) regular steel simply cannot do unless it's already been very fatigued, is a particularly thin area, or it's an extraordinarily dead-on blow.

[Heretic]

Well, considering that he lived about 5 centuries too late, and specialized in things from the wrong hemisphere to be anywhere near an expert in this sort of stuff, I fail to see your point here.

My opinion is that the westerosi knight is, first and foremost, a weapon of war. This is the reason he trains using armour. This is the reason he trains with the lance and the longsword. Because they serve him the best in melee like situations or for breaking an infantryline with his charge. And, having already learned this style of fighting he use it when he duels as well. Not because it is the most efficient in that type of situation.

Maybe the ueshiba example was poor. But the japanese fighting styles sprung to mind since they excelled in the duel-type situation and rarely used heavy armour in that type of situation even thou the quality of their armour was second to none.

Ringmail =/= plate armor used by nobles, let alone maile.

yes, yes, im with you.

[Heretic]

An answer worthy of the comment made... taking giants into account when considering top tier fighters is imo not the right thing to do. An addition, we do not know whether a skilled fighter would be able to slay one of them.

Why? You dont think the giants are good fighters? Mebbe set a height or weight limit on good fighters? Like, 6'2? 6'4? 15 stone? Gotta draw the line yaknow.

[Ser Tollah The Honest]

Top Tizzle

Strong Belwas - Kicks ass for a big fat dude. Has strength, speed and agility.

Victarion - Merely because he owns everything in that battle on the ship. He's like the Terminator in that scene.

Ser Arthur Dayne - Eddard Stark and Jaime Lannister both consider him the best Knight ever, and they know what they're talking about I reckon.

Ser Barristan Selmy - Has defeated pretty much everyone around at some point, according to the White Book.

Drogo - He's like the ultimate warrior. Undefeated in combat, leader of 40,000 other warriors who basically respect kicking arse and kicking arse alone.

The Hound - As long as there's no fire around, he will kick your arse. Could beat his brother 1 v 1 I would speculate.

Lord Robert Baratheon - Just because I like to imagine him bashing the shit out of people with his warhammer. He beat Rhaegar who was no slouch, when EVERYTHING was at stake. He won when it mattered most.

Oberyn Martell - Could have beaten the Mountain if he had been intent on killing him rather than just fucking around trying to get confessions and crap.

Daario - Cuts heads off like it's going out of habbit.

The Blackfish - A super renowned knight. Should have been in the Kingsguard, but the whole "Black Fish of the Family" stuff probably saw an end to that.

Second Tizzle

The Mountain - Not in the top tier. The Red Viper could have won. Also Loras got the better of him in Ned's tourney. Awesome, but not the invincible beast everyone thinks he is.

Ser Loras Tyrell - Defeated the Mountain in the tourney and was renowned as one of the best knights in the Kingdom.

Syrio Forel - First Sword of Bravoos sounds like a pretty sweet title, and Syrio is like a ninja. Maybe a first tier but we don't see enough of his prowess.

Greatjon Umber - Can only be defeated when he's wasted, which is unfortunately more often than not.

Garlan the Gallant - Pretty much regarded as highly or higher than the Knight of Flowers.

Dagmar Cleftjaw - Had his face fucked up but still kicks ass.

Tormund Giantsbane - THE BANE OF GIANTS. HE WILL FUCK YOU UP.

Shagga - I don't care if he doesn't have the discipline or the armour of knights. This thread is about fighting, at Shagga owns at fighting. Plus he kicks ass in the battle against Bolton's men.

Areo Hotah - Another "Terminator" type figure. I love the image of his just going around cutting off heads during a battle. Doran Martell is smart enough to keep one of the best fighters in the kingdom by his side.

Third Tizzle

Jaime Lannister - A good tourney fighter but didn't win that many. Beaten by Lil' Robbie Stark. However, he got into the Kingsguard back when the Kingsguard still kicked ass, and Aerys seemed to trust him for some demented reason.

Brienne of Tarth - Beat Loras, Rorge and Jaime. No way in the top tier, but obviously the toughest broad around, even if she is stupid.

Quorin Halfhand - Apparently was really trying when Jon beat him. Weak.

Bronn Stokeworth - The best sellsword in Westeros. Can whoop your common knight, but scared of the likes of the Mountain.

Timmet Son of Timmet - Absolutely ruthless. I love the fella.

King Robb Stark - Won like 5 battles where he would have been one of the youngest on the field. Came out with only a slight injury, which was cured via fucking. Badass. Probably would have grown up to be first tier.

Arya Stark - Haha fuck yeah. A ruthless killer and assassin-in-training.

Thoros of Myr - Won his fair share of melees. I always liked the sound of a fat monk fighting with a flaming sword.

Beric Dondarrion - Almost beat the Hound. However, was killed several times.

Bronze Yohn Royce - Sounds like a fierce cunt from reputation alone.

Ser Lyn Corbray - See above. We have yet to see much from the famed Knights of the Vale, apart from being owned by Bronn the Brave. Hopefully Littlefinger will bring them into action soon.

Ser Mandon Moore - The most dangerous Kingsguard member apparently. Killed by a squire.

Podrick Payne - Killed a Kingsguarder.

Ser Illyn Payne - Was the Captain of Tywin's guard, so must have been pretty awesome back in his heyday.

[CelticBrennus]

My opinion is that the westerosi knight is, first and foremost, a weapon of war. This is the reason he trains using armour. This is the reason he trains with the lance and the longsword. Because they serve him the best in melee like situations or for breaking an infantryline with his charge. And, having already learned this style of fighting he use it when he duels as well. Not because it is the most efficient in that type of situation.

Well, since your opinion appears to be contrary to actual practice of real life medieval knights, and you have not found any evidence to support your contention, I remain far from convinced.

Maybe the ueshiba example was poor. But the japanese fighting styles sprung to mind since they excelled in the duel-type situation and rarely used heavy armour in that type of situation even thou the quality of their armour was second to none.

Check around that site I linked too, there is a interesting article comparing the medieval knight to the feudal Japanese samurai.

As far as height and weight go, IIRC, more remaining suits of armor were fitted for men between 6 feet, and 6'6" and they tended to be for quite large men.

[Heretic]

Check around that site I linked too, there is a interesting article comparing the medieval knight to the feudal Japanese samurai.

It contains many interesting articles and essays, read several of them already. If I would seek support from that site I would point out that most essays I read make a clear destinction between weapons for war and for "civilian" use. In westeros this is not explicit.

Also, I have not yet found a discussion of armoured vs nonarmoured. Until reading on this site I have been under the impression that armour is specifically for war and melee type situations due to the fact that the scene is soo complex and missiles are a real factor. Now im not as certain. Oviously, a man in plate can not touch a an unarmoured man on an open field (which is the setting of the japanese comparison) because he is invariably slower, yes? But in a confined space such as the trial by combat of tyrion matters might be different.

Also, in the jappo-conjecture, they assume both warriors are armoured and using swords, yes? They seem to be big on swords on that site. When I brought up Ueshiba I was more thinking of staffs or instruments that attack a persons balance since not even I was under any delusion of full plates effectiveness against perforation (except being confused about how valarian steel was described in the books). Ueshiba is obviously from an incorrect era even though the tradition that spawned him was already going strong in the 17th centuary (which is still too late). Never really thought about that the type of single-combat fencingtradition of 17th centuary japan was highly formalised(which is bound to create limitations). I dont believe there anything special or mystical about the east except possibly a rather large gene-pool. I believe that practice and necessity makes perfect so if people are busy training exclusively singlecombat they will get rather good at it. I dont know anough history to say were such traditions have been strongest.

[Heretic]

As far as height and weight go, IIRC, more remaining suits of armor were fitted for men between 6 feet, and 6'6" and they tended to be for quite large men.

Sure about that? I was under the impression that medieval people were rather small and the two full-plate suits i have seen have been for rather short men, 165-170 cm or somesuch.

Two other facts that plays into height-armour-effectiveness:

The bigger the person, the weaker he will be, in proportion to himself. If humans were small as ants we too would be able to carry 6 times our own bodyweight. This is due to muscle-crossection and muscle-fysiology.

example:Tall people tend to be able to do fewer pushups than short ones.

Then again, the bigger the person, the less surface area proportionate to his innards will the person have and thus the armour will be lighter proportionately. Not sure if this is a strong anough force to play a part. Obviously, build will play a huge part here as well.

example:You will notice that small people tend to freeze easier than large ones.

[Harlot]

Can the list include anyone from the history of the world of Westeros or just those living at the time of ASOIAF? I see Arthur Dayne repeatedly mentioned here, but why not the Dragonknight, Bloodraven or Ser Clarence Crabb? Based on Nimble Dick's descriptions, I'd put Ser Clarence in the top tier. What about Azor Ahai or Joramund the King beyond the Wall? Do we get to include anyone from the Age of Heroes?

And anyone who puts Oberyn Martell above Gregor Clegane is crazy. That was a fight we got to see and Clegane won. Regardless of any other factors, at the end of the fight the Viper was dead and the Mountain was still alive.

[Mezeh]

There is yet another person who is missing in all lists but definitely should be in the list of top fighters. Barristan Selmy mentioned lord Jon Connington as known knight and his performance at the battle of the Bells confirms it.

[Fatuous]

And anyone who puts Oberyn Martell above Gregor Clegane is crazy. That was a fight we got to see and Clegane won. Regardless of any other factors, at the end of the fight the Viper was dead and the Mountain was still alive.

I agree. While the Red Viper was a good jouster, he let his poison do his killing for him in the melees, as he lacks the power of people like Gregor and Sandor to fight them fairly. I still wonder why the council allowed the Viper to fight Clegane with a poisoned spear. Perhaps it was because he was a member of that council but someone should have brought it up.

[Ran]

They didn't know his spear was poisoned. It wasn't like he told everyone. Certainly, it's a little odd that they trusted to his honor, rather than having some neutral party check weapons and whatnot, but there you go.

That said, I don't know if Oberyn would have lost a straight up fight without the poison. It would have taken a bit longer, but I believe the result would have been more or less the same as we saw.

[Fatuous]

They didn't know his spear was poisoned. It wasn't like he told everyone. Certainly, it's a little odd that they trusted to his honor, rather than having some neutral party check weapons and whatnot, but there you go.

That said, I don't know if Oberyn would have lost a straight up fight without the poison. It would have taken a bit longer, but I believe the result would have been more or less the same as we saw.

He's called the Red Viper because he poisoned his weapon in a previous duel, one that wasn't even to the death. The term I would use is "probable cause" but why would Mace Tyrell need even that for the man who crippled his son?

Oberyn didn't start making headway against Gregor until he got his spearpoint and the poison into him, which exhausted Gregor even more than his heavy armor and sword did. It's the same plan Bronn worked out but with far less lucky escapes from that greatsword. If it wasn't for the poison, I would wager that Ser Gregor would have chopped the spear to bits long before Oberyn's second cut.

[malek]

Top Tire:

Robert Baratheon, Rhaegar Targaryen, Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, Jaime Lannister, Oberyn Martell.

Second Tire:

Sandor Clegane, Bronn, Loras Tyrell, Garlan Tyrell, Victarion, Are Hotah, Grif ?