Top Tier Fighters.

[Ran]

Fatuous,

e's called the Red Viper because he poisoned his weapon in a previous duel

This isn't known. Lord Yronwood's wound festered and he died. It _could_ have been poison, and it seems Oberyn was fine with letting people speculate on it rather than deny it (at least, we've never heard him remark on it either way).

Oberyn didn't start making headway against Gregor until he got his spearpoint and the poison into him

Alternatively, he was wearing Gregor down, made him cause a mistake, and then gave him a wound that tore muscle and caused significant bleeding, which would more rapidly increase the level of his fatigue as the fight wore on. I fully agree that the poison likely began to have an immediate effect that compounded this, but even without the poison, Gregor was now fighting against the decline of his endurance.

Compare to Bronn's duel with Ser Vardis, where a wound to a relatively minor area causes bleeding which clearly increases Egen's fatigue. GRRM has already used the idea that bleeding wounds lead to swifter fatigue.

[CelticBrennus]

My opinion is that the westerosi knight is, first and foremost, a weapon of war. This is the reason he trains using armour. This is the reason he trains with the lance and the longsword. Because they serve him the best in melee like situations or for breaking an infantryline with his charge. And, having already learned this style of fighting he use it when he duels as well. Not because it is the most efficient in that type of situation.

Without sounding too snarky here, this is your conjecture. The fact is that when European knights fought for their lives, in both duels and battles, they wore armor. The experience of men for thousands of years was passed down, and if fighting without armor was truly the best option for them, they would have done it.

Maybe the ueshiba example was poor. But the japanese fighting styles sprung to mind since they excelled in the duel-type situation and rarely used heavy armour in that type of situation even thou the quality of their armour was second to none.

Japanese armor was centuries behind that of Europe at a given period. They are simply not comparable in any meaningful sense. By the 13-1400’s the relative level of personal protection that was given by state of the art armor of the period has never been paralleled.

It contains many interesting articles and essays, read several of them already. If I would seek support from that site I would point out that most essays I read make a clear destinction between weapons for war and for "civilian" use. In westeros this is not explicit.

If you read them you will also note the timeframes of those civilian weapons becoming popular – namely beginning in the Renaissance, after the medieval period was coming to a close. During the Medieval period the distinction was virtually nil.

Oviously, a man in plate can not touch a an unarmoured man on an open field (which is the setting of the japanese comparison) because he is invariably slower, yes? But in a confined space such as the trial by combat of tyrion matters might be different.

IS it obvious?

Also, in the jappo-conjecture, they assume both warriors are armoured and using swords, yes? They seem to be big on swords on that site.

Yes, armored and using swords, as those would be the most comprable weapons they could find. Otherwise we would have a comparison of the virtues of the knightly pole-axe versus a spear.

When I brought up Ueshiba I was more thinking of staffs or instruments that attack a persons balance since not even I was under any delusion of full plates effectiveness against perforation (except being confused about how valarian steel was described in the books).

Well, as I mentioned, since swords were the primary sidearm of a knight, and their first weapon would be a pole axe if fighting on foot, the difference in reach would be negligible, and armor providing a excellent level of protection against the blunt force of a staff.

I dont believe there anything special or mystical about the east except possibly a rather large gene-pool. I believe that practice and necessity makes perfect so if people are busy training exclusively singlecombat they will get rather good at it. I dont know anough history to say were such traditions have been strongest.

I would imagine your typical samurai would have as much practice in one on one combat as a knight would. If you fight for a living, you would take your training rather seriously.

Sure about that? I was under the impression that medieval people were rather small and the two full-plate suits i have seen have been for rather short men, 165-170 cm or somesuch.

Yes, I am sure about it. Diet is what plays a huge role in the height of a person, about 10% IIRC, and when you consider that most Medieval European noblemen would have a better diet them any of us, there is little reason to think their hieght would be stunted as it may be for a peasant. Besides, there are examples from real life who were well over 6 feet, like Charlemagne, Henry VIII (who would dance and do cartwheels in his armor), Henry II, William Wallace, Brian Boru, Barbarossa, etc...

And, if the scholars say that armor tended to be made to fit men who stood from 6' to 6'6", I find no reason to disbelieve them.

Two other facts that plays into height-armour-effectiveness:

The bigger the person, the weaker he will be, in proportion to himself. If humans were small as ants we too would be able to carry 6 times our own bodyweight. This is due to muscle-crossection and muscle-fysiology.

example:Tall people tend to be able to do fewer pushups than short ones.

Well, the armor is going to weigh about the same, if it is for a person who is 5'6" or 6'6", so for a person who is 170lbs, a 50-60lbs suit of fully articulated Gothic style plate is going to be a far greater burden then to a 270lbs man.

[Fatuous]

Fatuous,

This isn't known. Lord Yronwood's wound festered and he died. It _could_ have been poison, and it seems Oberyn was fine with letting people speculate on it rather than deny it (at least, we've never heard him remark on it either way).

Alternatively, he was wearing Gregor down, made him cause a mistake, and then gave him a wound that tore muscle and caused significant bleeding, which would more rapidly increase the level of his fatigue as the fight wore on. I fully agree that the poison likely began to have an immediate effect that compounded this, but even without the poison, Gregor was now fighting against the decline of his endurance.

Compare to Bronn's duel with Ser Vardis, where a wound to a relatively minor area causes bleeding which clearly increases Egen's fatigue. GRRM has already used the idea that bleeding wounds lead to swifter fatigue.

After checking the book, Gregor went down after the two cuts the Viper made after he blinded Gregor with the sun, first the armpit then the knee. Instantaneous fatigue on that order? And when combined with Bronn's comment on how Ser Gregor doesn't feel wounds like normal men, something more than sliced tendons was wrong for Gregor. According to a later description of the poison in Dorne, I would say the Viper mazimized it for two results: Slow death and agonizing pain. Which one would made Ser Gregor go down?

From the Viper to Tyrion: "Who knows more about poisons than the Red Viper of Dorne?"

Even he thought that the royal family should have been suspicious of him, at least where poisons were concerned.

[Atreides]

Now the following has probably been mentioned but I really don't feel like reading through ten pages first. I'd say Greatjon Umber should be up there somewhere. I don't think he's one of the better single combat fighters, but in a melee I think he'd own. I mean, when drunk and accosted with a sword, he takes the sword, kills a guy with it, and injures several more before going down. While badly outnumbered and surprised. In battle he's probably a raging force of death so long as no supremely skilled fighters get in his way.

[Rhaegar Nauron]

I am considering all characters from ASOIF, before their death or injures, assuming time when each of them was in full strength :fence: .

Top tire: Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, Robert Baratheon, Rhaegar Targaryen, Jaime Lannister, Syrio Forel, Oberyn Martell, Sandor Clegane.

Second tire: Gregor Clegane, Qhorin Halfhand, Garlan Tyrell, Gerold Hightower, Loras Tyrell, Victarion Greyjoy, Khal Drogo, Brienne of Tarth, Bronn of Blackwater.

[EgoistMusketeer]

I was reading the trial by combat post and I thought:

If there was an all-star trial by seven with a team from each of the seven kingdoms and the Riverlands.

What would your teams be? And who would reign supreme?

[Old Man Aegon]

Barristan Selmy

Gregor Clegane (Or Robert Strong if you wanna call him that)

Jaime Lannister (pre handsectomy)

Loras Tyrell

Brynden Tully

Garlan Tyrell

Balon Swann

Those are the ones Id pick if we went by people alive. Oh and I do belive they have to be Knights for a trial of Seven.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Edric Dayne for Dorne

Ser Brynden Tully for the Riverlands

Stannis Baratheon for the Stormlands

Bronze Yohn Royce for the Vale

Sandor Glegane for the Westerlands

Ser Gendry for the Crownlands

Ser Rolly Duckfield for the Reach

against

Garlan Tyrell for the Reach

Ser Gregor Clegane for the Westerlands

Ser Lyn Corbray for the Vale

Ser Hosteen Frey for the Riverlands

Darkstar for Dorne

Bronn for the Crownlands

Ser Ronnet Connington for the Stormlands

The Northmen and the Ironborn don't care for the Seven and that makes it exactly seven combatants. The case in question seems rather obvious.

[Corm]

Darkstar

Ser Garlan Tyrell

Ser Robert Strong

Ser Brynden Tully

Lord Jon Connington

Ser Lyn Corbray

Ser Bronn

[Fat Mac]

Garlan Tyrell of the Reach

Brynden Tully of the Riverlands

Yohn Royce of the Vale

Balon Swann of the Stormlands (as house Swann is from there)

Bronn of the Crownlands. (Or Lothor Brune)

Jaime Lannister of the Westerlands

Gerold Dayne of Dorne

[Josephxoxo]

This doesn't count past characters such as Ser Arthur Dayne. Starting with AGOT up until the fifth book.

That being said I personally can pretty much narrow it down to these fighters.

Strong Belwas- He let's himself get woudned for every one on one fight he gets into. This can imply that he does it on purpose because he's such a good swordsman that he allows himself to get wounded out of ego/ symbolism.

Daario Naharis- It was said that he's killed so many people that he can fill cities with all the heads, he's killed many leaders whether it was a Yunkish Lord or his former comrades that he beheaded for Dany. He seems to be one of the msot talented fighters in the book.

Khal Drogo- Never lost a fight, became the leader of 40,000 khalasar based on his power as a fighter.

Ser Barristan the Bold- Performed many deeds according to the Kingsguard's White book. He is one of the msot talented swordsman in the series.

Sandor Clegane- A very talented swordsman in his prime, became King Joffreys loyal protector.

Gregor Clegane- Possibly the strongest and most deadly knight in the book.

Darkstar-It was said he was one of the most dangerous people in the Seven Kingdoms.

Jaime Lannister (without a hand)- He seems to be getting better with his left hand. We can infer that Ser Ilyn Payne is one of the best swordsman in the seven kingdoms based on his position although I don't consider him top top material

Oberyn Martell- nearly defeated the mountain yet his ego got the best of him.

I'm using this based on evidence, I don't know how good other kingsguard or Areo Hotah are.

That being said my opinion is Strong Belwas. He seems to have the most and top agility for his weight and he's obviously one of the strongest knights. He defeated the best fighter in Meeren whilist letting himself getting injured on purpose.

[Charles Stuart]

VictarIon would be pretty decent too.

[James Arryn]

VIctarion should be on this list. Arguably Syrio.

[Cheese Pudding]

Drogo

The best fighter as a knight I would say Jaime (with both hands), but mainly due Selmy's age

[moonsblood]

what about Brienne? she defeated Loras and gave Jaime with both hands a run for his money

edit: not as the best fighter but on the list.

[Barty]

Garlan Tyrell should also be there.

Just read that he practices against 3 knights at the same time - and he's in the his prime, unlike a few others in that list. Pity we dont see him in action.

[James Arryn]

Willas Tyrell should also be there.

Just read that he practices against 3 knights at the same time - and he's in the his prime, unlike a few others in that list. Pity we dont see him in action.

I agree. Quorin too.

[James Arryn]

what about Brienne? she defeated Loras and gave Jaime with both hands a run for his money

edit: not as the best fighter but on the list.

Meh, she admitted that a normalized Jaime has little trouble with her, and Loras was beating her before the bullrush.

If you're making a list of the top 20 or something, she's definitely there, but when someone else is established as better she can't be included on a list of 'potentially the best'.

[Josephxoxo]

Just read that he practices against 3 knights at the same time - and he's in the his prime, unlike a few others in that list. Pity we dont see him in action

Maybe it's just me and what the hell do I know about swordfighting but wouldn't fighting against three knights be liek trying to play a 2 on 1 ping pong game. They'll get in each others way. They'll hesitate, etc...

[Barty]

Garlan, and I agree. Quorin too.

Thanks - Edited my post