The Redemption of Jaime Lannister

[The Pita]

"Jaime's dead, baby, Jaime's dead."

Bah, quoting a thread and changing a name is fun.

I think Daenerys and Cersei are two complete opposites, and on purpose. Their attitude to Jaime might also be the same.

Cersei loved Jaime at first, and now... it's quite confusing. Until the end of AFFC you think she hates him, but then she thinks of a thought that she held in love, no matter how demented. (We will die in the same day)

Daenerys started out hating Jaime the most. And now, she might actually find it in herself to forgive him. We'll definitely see the answer in ADWD.

[Wargonaut]

I don't think UnCat will be the end of Jaime...mainly because that would be totally awesome revenge scene. And GRRM has denied us proper vengeance on almost every opportunoty he got.

Very true. We have been denied MOST of the vengeance we have been screaming for. Of course, Joff's death was pretty sweet (I guess Sansa can indirectly claim vengeance there) and Tyrion's vengeance against Shae and, most importantly, Tywin was also pretty well written. We also can't forget that crazy bitch Lysa Arryn and her demise. But we are still lacking for the vengeace owed against Gregor, Ramsay & Roose, Walder Frey, Cersai, and there are probably a few others (Arya's list?). I couldn't even consider the death of Viserys an act of vengeance. In the end, I felt sorry for that kid.

I wouldn't really consider Catelyn's killing of Jaime vengeance -especially given what has happened since Bran's fall and Robb's death. The transformation of both characters, most notably Jaime's turn-around, has changed the circumstances. But Catelyn exacting revenge on Jaime would be just the kind of thing Martin would do. It is vengeance that most of us don't want to see. Martin would basically have Catelyn kill Jaime just as Jaime is doing or about to do something extremely protagonistic or beneficial (revealing or deposing Cersai, killing Gregor, saving one of the Stark children, etc.). Martin would then throw Catelyn's vengeance in our face saying, "Well...you were asking for vengeance in this story! Here it is! You got what you asked for!"

Martin does a good job of taking past stories and past circumstances and making them play out in a delayed fashion - to make us second guess or reconsider the traditional notions of justice and vengeance. He uses character and plot development to challenge the concepts of duty, valor, right, wrong, honor and justification. Hence the reason Jaime is such an intriguing character study - ie, what vows should he keep?

Thus, I think that Catelyn, a character that at one time we probably all felt was owed a substantial amount of vengeance and justice, will be used as a villian (of sorts) to keep at least a part of the plot from going in the way the fans want it to go - to keep the fans from realizing some outcome we have all been hoping for. In otherwords, she will foil something in the plot that causes us to think: "Damn, Catelyn ruined everything."

I just think she will accomplish this by, directly or indirectly, causing the end of Jaime.

The dead part I certainly agree with. He's not going to survive the series, particularly if he is to have any sort of redemption. I don't think he could ever be 'redeemed' by following vows or being loyal to this person or the next. His redemption won't be in the minds of the people, who will always recall him as the Kingslayer (or sister-fucker, or child-murderer, take your pick). The redemption he is looking for will be from within - not from some external praise or congratulations. If he is to be redeemed, I think his death will be his act of redemption, and it will be a death freely chosen.

How do I think it will happen? For whatever reason, I can see Jaime ending up on the Wall (or with what's left of hte Night's Watch, in any event).

Despite the way their last meeting went, I really don't think that Tyrion would want Jaime to be killed, and would convince Dany to let him take the black (also knowing Jon Snow, newly-minted LC of the Watch, and knowing the NW's need for good men). Then his death would be in service to the Watch and Kingdom against the Others, which would be a death worthy of redemption in some fashion.

Although I tend to think his fate is intertwined with Brienne's in some way, particularly if she has shouted "sword" (as opposed to "Arya"), I don't think he will ever be redeemed if his fate is to die at the hands of Stoneheart.

I agree with most of this. Jaime's redemption is something that is definitely internal and not seen by the other characters (maybe a few exceptions: Brienne, Loras, Cersai, though she doesn't like it, and a few other minor characters that have been around him). But as we all see his redemption, others see things completely different: Edmure thinking Jaime would hurl his child over the walls, Roose's "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" comment. So...I think you are right. Jaime has a long way to go to become redeemed in the eyes of Westeros. Given his imminent death, it may not ever be realized. Maybe it does hinge on Brienne, but no one seems to listen to her anyway.

I don't think, in the end, Tyrion will kill Jaime or have him killed. I think Tyrion may be one of the few that, in the end, may actually save Jaime - if he can be saved. That would be another ironic stroke of genious from Martin - if he can figure out how to do it. Though there would still be more necessary development on that front as well.

As for Jaime going to the wall, we still must remember that Jon Snow is, as of now, a Stark. He probably doesn't think to kindly of Jaime at the moment. Granted, Jaime would be an asset and beggars can't be choosers, Jon still doesn't know enough to trust Jaime. So...again, a lot would have to happen for Jaime to be accepted even at the wall. I just don't know if Jaime has enough time left.

Sorry for the long post.

[Antonius Pius]

Daenerys started out hating Jaime the most. And now, she might actually find it in herself to forgive him. We'll definitely see the answer in ADWD.

I'm sorry, on what basis might Dany "actually find it in herself to forgive" Jaime?

[Kalbear]

The only reason that Dany might forgive him is because she finds out what a madman Aerys truly was. But I don't think that's in her, and I don't think that Barristan will advise that either.

[DanteGabriel]

The only reason that Dany might forgive him is because she finds out what a madman Aerys truly was. But I don't think that's in her, and I don't think that Barristan will advise that either.

Barristan did promise to tell Dany more about Aerys later on. One wonders how much he knows about the final hours of Mad Aerys Targaryen.

I would surely love to be have been a fly on the wall when Jaime and Barristan first came back together in the meeting chamber of the Kingsguard after the end of the Targaryens. Would Barristan have bothered to say anything to Jaime about his crime?

[Wargonaut]

I'm sorry, on what basis might Dany "actually find it in herself to forgive" Jaime?

The only reason that Dany might forgive him is because she finds out what a madman Aerys truly was. But I don't think that's in her, and I don't think that Barristan will advise that either.

Frankly, I don't think it will matter.

Upon arriving in Westeros, Dany will have bigger problems than Jaime Lannister. I don't think she will be as concerned with avenging her father as she will in securing the kingdom.

Not to mention, Westeros is a big place and Jaime has never been in any one place for very long - at least since the beginning of Game of Thrones. I personally think the odds of them meeting up immediately aren't very good.

Even so, once they finally do meet up, she may have good reason to take him alive. After all, he was Rhaegar's friend.

Perhaps he will be a captive after the war of the invasion. But I wager he is already dead by then.

The only way I see Jaime being a factor upon Dany's arrival is that, first, he's alive and then he is either 1)Tommen's hand or 2) leading the army that fights Dany's invasion. But I don't see Jaime going in that direction.

Again, I think Jaime Lannister will be the least of her worries.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Even so, once they finally do meet up, she may have good reason to take him alive. After all, he was Rhaegar's friend.

From her perspective, I can see that being awfully hard to believe. Or small consolation, even if true.

[Nayrael (aka Akul)]

We forget about our beloved cersei who shall survive the trial. Did anyone think about the fact that she might kick Jaime out of the Kingsguard for betraying her?

That is important since the reason for Dany's and Jaime's meeting will be more important. If Jaime takes the lordship of Casterly Rock in order to save Tommen from Cersei's claws, won't that make him an even bigger enemy in Dany's eyes?

And besides, I think that she will send Tyrion and one of her dragons on KL while she goes North (as Quaither says) to check Stannis's loyalty and (if R+L=J theory is correct) to see her nephew. I would be more interested in Tyrion's and Jaime's meeting then Jaime's and Dany's since he will most probably be dead when she arrives.

[Jacen]

Akul: I can't see Jaime being kicked out of the kingsguard, for any reason. For the past 15 years since he was knighted he has tried to shirk his KG duties, now he is a changed man trying to honor his former commitments. I mean he even turned down Lord Tywin's bald faced proposal to get him out of his KG's vows and place him as the heir of the Rock. GRRM has made waaaaay too much about his new found devotion to his KG role as lord commander to have him lose it. If Cersei tries to boot him, he will resist it. I think hes going to kill her himself anyways. Either way, he will live or die wearing the white cloak.

[Wargonaut]

From her perspective, I can see that being awfully hard to believe. Or small consolation, even if true.

Well...I shouldn't have said that Jaime being Rhaegar's friend is a good reason to keep him alive. There are better reasons. Jaime could be used to get House Lannister's support (depending on how Kevan treats Dany's arrival). He could be used simply as a commander - though I will concede that Dany and Barristan may not trust him (but then again, Dany is going to have to learn to trust or accept a lot of her father's old enemies if she wants to rule Westeros).

But Dany really seems to have more respect and admiration for the memory of Rhaegar than she does the memory of her father. I think she understands that he was a little whacko. Even Barristan admitted he was. And I am not necessarily implying that Dany will spare Jaime because she will say, "Oh, yeah. It's cool. My father was crazy and probably should have been killed." I am just saying I don't think she will be dead-set on revenge. So...I think that her decision to kill Jaime, if it ever need be made, would be more because he is a kingslayer (once a kingslayer always a kingslayer) and he can't be trusted. Not because he killed her father or because Barristan is mad at him.

I also think this notion that Barristan wants Jaime dead does an injustice to Barristan. It makes him look childish or jealous. Yeah, okay, Barristan was removed and Jaime was made LC. But that wasn't Jaime's decision. That was Cersai and her counsel (maybe Tywin or Tyrion? I can't remember). But would Barristan really be upset at Jaime for that? I don't really think that is what will concern him about Jaime.

Again, I think both Dany and Barristan will have bigger problems. Such as all the lords who choose to oppose her. Unless Jaime becomes a bigger part of the current government (like becoming Hand and such), which I don't think is his cup of tea, he probably won't play such a significant role in resisting her invasion. Not one that is significant enough to be a major concern to Dany.

Jaime is LC of the Kingsguard. He knows Tommen is not legitimate. His priority will be simply protecting Tommen's person, not protecting his rule. Maybe Dany will respect Jaime's dedication to protecting his son? She seems to be pretty compassionate. When all is said and done, I don't think she will have to kill Tommen or Jaime to establish her legitimacy. And I don't think Jaime will be as concerned with defending against the invasion and protecting Tommen's claim as he will be in protecting Tommen's life and getting him to safety (this, of course, assuming that Jaime and Tommen are both still alive and well when they invade - heck, Tommen may not even be ruling by then).

To make a long story short, I don't think Dany should or will be threatened by Jaime upon arriving. And I think she will probably realize this. But that's just me, and I could be wrong.

[Fatuous]

You can't even go a paragraph without contradicting yourself.

He's doomed. Dead dead dead.

They're not contradictions. Jaime was a prisoner for the second and part of the third book and in the fourth, his Queen Regent sent him out of King's Landing halfway through the fourth. A year out of 18 total spent in the Kingsguard {something on that order} yet during that time two Kings died in King's Landing while Jaime was still a member of the Kingsguard, sworn to the Throne. Close to the Throne, out of King's Landing. The Iron Throne's a thing, the Throne is the idea of the Seven Kingdoms, the unity it represents.

What is the point of the Kingsguard? Are they for show, has their point been subjugated and changed somehow? Why does the King need a royal guard to obey him completely and keep his secrets anyway? For the epitome of knighthood, Arthur Dayne and his crew leave a lot to be desired when it comes to their roles in Robert usurping the Throne.

Can anyone couple the idea of Dayne helping peasant and lord alike against bandits and thieves while letting his King chew on his wife's breasts, burn people alive and tear apart a Kingdom? And Rhaegar wan't much of a help, even though theoretically he's saner. So what will the LC Jaime do now, what can he do, in order to bring meaning to what is suppose to be the greatest, the highest ideals of the Kingdom?

They all swore a vow as a member of the Kingsguard. But here's the point: They all swore a vow as knights prior to that and Jaime was the only one who had the guts to remember that vow came first. Or perhas young enough to think it actually meant something. "If the king orders you to saddle his horse, do it. If he orders you to kill it, come to me." Such a simple yet effective order. Why didn't Hightower think of that?

And Dany's going to come to the rescue? If Dany's listening to Selmy's nonsense about Aerys being "charming" to the Starks then she's not going to be much help, to the Kingdom or herself. Selmy isn't as white as his cloak would lead you to believe, he's Barristan the Bold because he's kept a lot of secrets of the Targaryens back from people who worship his "whiteness", his "honor".

[Tanaqui]

I also think this notion that Barristan wants Jaime dead does an injustice to Barristan.

I too don't think Barristan would go out of his way to see Jaime dead, but he wouldn't shirk the chance to confront him either if they crossed paths. The Kingsguard was his whole life ever since he was around 20, and it was his goal before that. I would think the stain Jaime put on it would cut him more deeply than most people.

Basically I think Dany killing him or not killing him depends on the circumstances of their meeting.

Back to the original theory of UnCat killing Jaime, it just occurred to me that the chance of that happening is actually really slim--Jaime is so cautious now that the BwB would have to cut through a whole army before they could even take a swipe at him. Not to mention all his camps from now on are probably going to be fortified--he learned the lesson at the Whispering Wood well. Short of a whole other army, only Melisandre and her shadowbabies could get to him.

Unless they nab him during one of his secluded training sessions...oh crap.

[ZANNI_1276]

My favorite character & my favorite subplot. he is probably the most complicated character but i don't see him going down on soon, but more along the lines of one of the GRAND finally of deaths...Perhaps something to do against the OTHERS...Daenerys prophecy"the white lion" is good reference for that his story of redemption has just begun... I too subscribe to the theroy of him being the Valonquar and killing Cersei - the two lions are going to be part of that bittersweet ending Martin has alluded to.

[Guest]

One of the things I like about GRRM is that he's hard to predict. I hated Jaime at first, and now he may be my favorite character. All the stuff he says to Brienne, cruel as it may be, is so damn witty and funny. And he seems to be progressing morally. Maybe he does't die after all

[Daemrion]

If he does die, it had better be the most fantabulous, outrageous and splendiferous death ever in the history of fantasy fiction, otherwise I won't be happy.

It had just better be THAT good.

I would have thought that he would definitely die, but now I think that since Cersei and Tyrion both seem to be doomed then he just might survive. We can't kill off all the Lannister POV's can we?

[The Pita]

...

Why is Tyrion doomed?

I haven't seen that anywhere.

[Darcia]

We can't kill off all the Lannister POV's can we?

We?

Personally, I don’t think any more of the Lannisters are going to die before the end of the books.

In Jaime’s dream, we see Cersei, Tywin and Joffrey with all the other dead Lannisters.

Then Cersei tells Jaime that “This is your place,†and they all leave him. If Jaime was going to die, any time soon, wouldn’t he be leaving with them?

As for Dany wanting Jaime dead, I think that Jaime telling Brienne his reason for killing Aerys will be important. Brienne could tell Dany. I know a lot of people on this board think that Jaime was still wrong to kill Aerys, but I actually think it was the right action. And Dany might agree. It’s not as if she hasn’t broken her word to kill people that she thinks deserve to die. She agreed to sell a dragon to the slavers and then killed the lot of them. She is hardly Miss Moral herself.

[A wilding]

Dany might just find it in herself to privately understand and sympathise with Jaime's action in killing Aerys. But will she find it in herself to forgive him and House Lannister for what they did to her sister-in-law? Her niece? Her nephew? The shade of Rhaegar condemned Jaime for not protecting them in his dream.

On top of this, in a feudal society Dany is likely to be more or less forced to take her revenge on the Lannisters, whatever her personal feelings in the matter. Only some drastic upset to the whole game of thrones is likely to change this. Of course, the Others waiting in the wings might just provide this upset.

Personally I am unhappy with the cliche in which all the characters that the readers like make up and become friends. This sort of saccharin ending makes me wince. I think that GRRM is a tougher writer than that and won't let this happen.

[Nayrael (aka Akul)]

To Jacen:

Who say that Jaime shall like it. He will return to it when he gets the chance.

But he can't save Tommen if Cersei kicks him out and exiles from KL.

[Guest Other-in-law]

I'm sorry, on what basis might Dany "actually find it in herself to forgive" Jaime?

The only reason that Dany might forgive him is because she finds out what a madman Aerys truly was. But I don't think that's in her, and I don't think that Barristan will advise that either.

She's already received confirmation of Jaime's alibi before she's even heard it. She saw a vision of Aerys in the House of the Undying saying "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat. Let him be king of ashes." Much the same as Jaime's recollection to Brienne: "The traitors want my city, but I'll give them nought but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat."

If Dany ever sits in judgement of Jaime and he tells her about the wildfire plot, she'll believe him. That doesn't mean that she'll forgive or pardon him, but it may save him from the headsman's block. He could be given a suicide mission of some sort, or ordered to take the black.