Some Questions About Knight of the Laughing Tree

[Guest Other-in-law]

Never heard of Aegon the Conqueror and his two wives?"

Yeah and it's interesting to note that no other Targ has done so since. I think this tradition was discontinued due to one reason or another because I am sure most Targ's would have had many wives instead of just one. Perhaps it has something to do with lets see here, civil war. Aegon was also thousands of years ago in Westros when no doubt such was legal but from what I remember nothing pointed to it being legal in current times. Also Rhaegar was a prince doubtless and not the King/dictator that Aegon was.

Well, originally you said that not even Targs were allowed to have multiple wives, and the most famous of them all did. There's also a strong possibility that MAegor the Cruel and even later Targs did as well. In an SSM GRRM said that Maegor had 8 or 9 wives, but "not all of them at the same time".

It's true that the tradition seems to have lapsed, but that was also true of 'Trial by Seven' at the time of tHK...and Aerion insisted on his right since it was still legally extant despite disuse for over a century. These things remain on the books regardless of whether they're exercised, and bookish Rhaegar is very likely to have been aware of his House's history.

[Maia]

I don't totally agree with this opinion. Who the KotLT is, is not the important thing here. It is important that Rhaegar was charged to find the KotLT and during his search would have come across Lyanna, thus setting into motion the events that lead to the war. She could have been or she could not have been the KotLT, but it doesn't matter because the search for whoever was the knight is what allowed Rhaegar to find her and set into motion the events of the next two years or so.

So, you think that Rhaegar fell in love at the first sight and went temporarily insane? Because nothing else would explain crowning Lyanna if she _wasn't_ the KoTL. Not to mention that Rhaegar did see her previously, at the feast for sure and I imagine that that all of the Starks would have been presented to him at some point during the festivities, too. After all, it was a rare opportunity for a heir to the throne to meet the next generation of his future highest vassals.

I also suggest a look at Martin's description of Daena the Defiant for Amoka's portraits, because her life seems in many respects to parallel Lyanna's. And she did have some jousting training, although she was never allowed to take part in tourneys.

[Elrick]

Well, originally you said that not even Targs were allowed to have multiple wives, and the most famous of them all did. There's also a strong possibility that MAegor the Cruel and even later Targs did as well. In an SSM GRRM said that Maegor had 8 or 9 wives, but "not all of them at the same time".

It's true that the tradition seems to have lapsed, but that was also true of 'Trial by Seven' at the time of tHK...and Aerion insisted on his right since it was still legally extant despite disuse for over a century. These things remain on the books regardless of whether they're exercised, and bookish Rhaegar is very likely to have been aware of his House's history.

All I'm saying is that I will need more evidence to support your theory that Rhaegar ran off and married Lyanna even though he was already married to Elia. Even so though you might be right afterall I wont say your wrong but something just doesn't sound totaly true about this whole theory regardless of what you all say. It is also very likely that marrying more than one person was considered at one point common practice but I suspect that it was disallowed due to Faith.

I'll have to think some more on this however.

[Guest Other-in-law]

It is also very likely that marrying more than one person was considered at one point common practice but I suspect that it was disallowed due to Faith.

Well, the Faith never managed to get the Targs to stop practicing incest...incest, for crying out loud....so why should we think they managed to forbid polygamy to them?

Anyway, it's just conjecture, and may be wrong. As long as we agree that it's possible from what we know now, I'm happy.

[Jon Targaryen]

I do believe R and L were married and that Aegon and Maegor are legitimate precedents.

But there should be some explanation of why polygamy among Targs became less common. Why wasn't Egg prepared to marry both of his sisters? Why didn't Aegon IV marry some of his high-born mistresses? Why didn't Baelor just marry all of his sisters before putting them in the Maidenvault? These are dificult questions, considering the old practice of Targaryen polygamy.

[oneeye]

I think it would be easier for a wild/wiry fit woman to joust then swordfight. I mean the horse helps carry the armor, and though lance and shield are heavy, you have to carry them only a short time in a joust, unlike a sword fight which can go on longer.

a joust is over in what, 10 seconds?

too bad there isn't a real lyanna/rhaegar prequel.

[Starkaryan]

I personally think Lyanna is the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but I would not be surprised if we have somebody going to Greywater Watch and the Heart Tree in its godswood (if a floating castle even has a godswood) has a laughing face... it would explain why Howland (who, of course, we would know is actually the KotLT) chose that name...

[Guest Other-in-law]

I don't know that that would prove even anything. Are weirwood faces permanently static or can they change expressions? The one in the Black Gate can freaking talk and open it's mouth wide enough to walk through. And the CotF were supposed to be able to speak to each other through them. Maybe Howland could have changed it, if it's laughing, if it exists.

[Starkaryan]

...the CotF were supposed to be able to speak to each other through them.

They were? Where did it say that? I don't doubt it, though...

[Sarella]

I thought they could see through them, I don't remember them being able to speak through them. But I also trust that OiL is right. It would be in a Bran chapter - either AGOT Bran VII, ACOK Bran IV or ASOS Bran IV.

[Jon Targaryen]

I think it was in a Jon chapter actually. After Bran is assumed to be dead, Jon has a wolf dream through Ghost and Ghost sees a rapidly growing weirwood that speaks to him in Bran's voice.

I checked and it is Jon VII of ACOK, p.573 in the HC/TPB and p.762 in the MMPB.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Maester Luwin talks about the Greensight after Jojen told him about green dreams:

Luwin set down his quill. "No one truly knows Bran. The children of the forest are gone from the world, and their wisdom with them. It had to do with the faces in the trees, we think. The First Men believed the greenseers could see through the eyes of the weirwoods. That was why they down the trees when they warred upon the children."

Then there's that dream of Jon's, which JT cited when he dreams of Ghost seeing Bran's face in a new weirwood and speaking to him:

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, it's pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, it's limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

Bran continues, speaking about the dark, and how to open one's eyes, before reaching down and touching Ghost with a branch. I used to think this was what literally happened, that Bran, warging in Summer found a weirwood somewhere in the Wolfwood and used it to sprout a new weirwood near Ghost in the Frostfangs, which in turn spurred Jon's warging. But rereading just now, I saw the line after Bran touched him "And suddenly he was back in the mountains". So I guess it really was a spirit-realm event, not something that physically happened in the material world.

In any case, Bran seems to have tapped into the weirwood network somehow to communicate with Jon over those vast distances and even through the Wall, which blocks other types of magic (I think the Black Gate is the conduit for the weirwood network through the Wall). And the Black Gate literally did speak; that wasn't a dream at all. So weirwoods can have the capacity for 'speech', whether or not they're anymore sentient than a telephone.

Added all together, it seems perfectly reasonable that the greenseers could talk to each other through the trees, like a green version of the glass candles. Er, what was the original topic again?

[Jon Targaryen]

You know, reading over that passage, I think that this may be the only instance where we have seen a warg dreaming into an animal and that animal is also dreaming. After all, how can Ghost see a young weirwood that is growing so rapidly unless he is dreaming?

This could mean Ghost did not howl at that time and Errant Bard's theory that Ghost howling will bring down the Wall could be correct.

[Stratonice]

I have not finished reading through all the posts on this subject (or a number of other interesting subjects), so if what I have to say has all ready been said, ignore it.

I don't totally agree with this opinion. Who the KotLT is, is not the important thing here. It is important that Rhaegar was charged to find the KotLT and during his search would have come across Lyanna, thus setting into motion the events that lead to the war. She could have been or she could not have been the KotLT, but it doesn't matter because the search for whoever was the knight is what allowed Rhaegar to find her and set into motion the events of the next two years or so.

Ish

I'm sorry I haven't responded to this before, I only just noticed it.

I guess I just don't see why looking for the KotLT would lead Rhaegar to Lyanna, much less make enough impression on him to publicly crown her the Queen of Love and Beaty in front of his wife and to run away with/abduct her if the KotLT was someone else entirely. Since Lyanna is a woman she wouldn't be among the more obvious suspects for Rhaegar or anyone else trying to find the mystery knight so I don't really see how his inquiry would lead him to her much less what would make enough of an impression on him for what followed if she was not the one. Why would he even notice her at all under those circumstances? Not saying there couldn't be an explanation for it, just that I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of something that would fit.

Unless there is a reasonable explanation for the above, if the KotLT was Howland, Ned or Benjen then this story doesn't really have anything to do with what happened later. It's just the story of how they dressed someone up as a mystery knight and got away with it. That was my point, but it doesn't really prove anything one way or the other, maybe the point of the story is something else entirely that we haven't figured out yet. But on the other hand, if it's Lyanna, it's not necessary to believe they married, it's not necessary to believe in R+L=J at all, and it's not necessary to believe she went with Rhaegar willingly either, to accept that this story is a lot more significant if Lyanna is the KotLT than it is with any of the other candidates based on the information we have at this moment.

Regarding the horse issue, that's something that's been bothering me as well. Not just about this particular mystery knight but about all of them. Why was it necessary to defeat a mystery knight and reveal who was under the armour when it should have been a simple thing to identify the horse? And mystery knights doesn't seem to have been all that uncommon either.

[mormont]

Stratonice: looking for the KotLT would begin with talking to the squires. They would relate how they'd been bullying Howland, and were stopped by Lyanna. So looking for the KotLT would naturally lead to Lyanna, and Rhaegar might be impressed enough by her courage in standing up to the squires that he would award her the crown.

However, this is undoubtedly less likely than him discovering that Lyanna is the KotLT and then crowning her for that. Why? Well, what Lyanna did with the squires is relatively minor - not enough IMO to inspire Rhaegar to win the tourney in the first place, in order to recognise her. I think he discovered or concluded that Lyanna was the KotLT and so the 'true' winner of the tourney.

I rather like the parellel with THK in this scenario: the KotLT is the only 'true knight', even though she is no knight (the same as Dunk). This would work for the other candidates too, I suppose - though it would seem like cheating for any of the Stark boys (as they're only technically not knights) and if it is any other candidate, their achievment is never recognised.

[Jon Targaryen]

I'm sorry I haven't responded to this before, I only just noticed it.

I guess I just don't see why looking for the KotLT would lead Rhaegar to Lyanna, much less make enough impression on him to publicly crown her the Queen of Love and Beaty in front of his wife and to run away with/abduct her if the KotLT was someone else entirely. Since Lyanna is a woman she wouldn't be among the more obvious suspects for Rhaegar or anyone else trying to find the mystery knight so I don't really see how his inquiry would lead him to her much less what would make enough of an impression on him for what followed if she was not the one. Why would he even notice her at all under those circumstances? Not saying there couldn't be an explanation for it, just that I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of something that would fit.

Unless there is a reasonable explanation for the above, if the KotLT was Howland, Ned or Benjen then this story doesn't really have anything to do with what happened later. It's just the story of how they dressed someone up as a mystery knight and got away with it. That was my point, but it doesn't really prove anything one way or the other, maybe the point of the story is something else entirely that we haven't figured out yet. But on the other hand, if it's Lyanna, it's not necessary to believe they married, it's not necessary to believe in R+L=J at all, and it's not necessary to believe she went with Rhaegar willingly either, to accept that this story is a lot more significant if Lyanna is the KotLT than it is with any of the other candidates based on the information we have at this moment.

Regarding the horse issue, that's something that's been bothering me as well. Not just about this particular mystery knight but about all of them. Why was it necessary to defeat a mystery knight and reveal who was under the armour when it should have been a simple thing to identify the horse? And mystery knights doesn't seem to have been all that uncommon either.

Man, I read that and I'm not even sure which theory you support. Could you clarify?

[Stratonice]

Stratonice: looking for the KotLT would begin with talking to the squires. They would relate how they'd been bullying Howland, and were stopped by Lyanna. So looking for the KotLT would naturally lead to Lyanna, and Rhaegar might be impressed enough by her courage in standing up to the squires that he would award her the crown.

However, this is undoubtedly less likely than him discovering that Lyanna is the KotLT and then crowning her for that. Why? Well, what Lyanna did with the squires is relatively minor - not enough IMO to inspire Rhaegar to win the tourney in the first place, in order to recognise her. I think he discovered or concluded that Lyanna was the KotLT and so the 'true' winner of the tourney.

I rather like the parellel with THK in this scenario: the KotLT is the only 'true knight', even though she is no knight (the same as Dunk). This would work for the other candidates too, I suppose - though it would seem like cheating for any of the Stark boys (as they're only technically not knights) and if it is any other candidate, their achievment is never recognised.

My main problem with that explanation is that it's (as you say) a relatively minor thing. I'm having a hard time seeing how defending one of your fathers bannermen is remarkable enough that it's worth causing a public scandal over, especially in that particular manor. If rewarding courage shown in that particular way (defending Howland from the squires) was his intent, there were a lot of other ways he could have done that without publicly insulting his wife. After all, what happened was hardly a secret (at least the squires, and probably the knights they served knew about it as well as all the Starks) so he could easily have presented her with some kind of reward instead if that was what he wanted to do. I'm not saying it couldn't have happened that way, just that it doesn't add up for me.

[Sarella]

My main problem with that explanation is that it's (as you say) a relatively minor thing. I'm having a hard time seeing how defending one of your fathers bannermen is remarkable enough that it's worth causing a public scandal over, especially in that particular manor.

Exactly, which is why she must also have been the mystery knight to warrant such a reward. This is what Mormont was saying. The she-wolf bested three knights at jousting but couldn't reveal herself and take the glory because she is a woman. Rhaegar found out, thought that she deserved some recognition, and crowned her.

[Stratonice]

Man, I read that and I'm not even sure which theory you support. Could you clarify?

It seems I've been confusing people a lot lately, not sure how I manage to do it. It all makes sense in my head...

Does my post make more sense if I say that it all goes back to my explanation in post #74 in this thread of why it makes the most sense (to me at least) why the Reed kids would think Bran already knew the story if Lyanna is the KotLT? And ishmael responded with the position that the story could have the same significance regardless of who the KotLT really was. My confusing post above was an attempt to adress that position.

And just to be over-explicit, I'm in the KotLT=Lyanna camp.

Does this clarify my position and argument enough?

[Stratonice]

Exactly, which is why she must also have been the mystery knight to warrant such a reward. This is what Mormont was saying. The she-wolf bested three knights at jousting but couldn't reveal herself and take the glory because she is a woman. Rhaegar found out, thought that she deserved some recognition, and crowned her.

Yes, I understood that. And I agree with that position. But since it was offered as an alternative explanation for how things happened the way they did (which I had said in my earlier post that I had trouble coming up with) I just wanted to make it clear that I still don't think that possibility adds up. Sorry if I was unclear about that.