What is the Alchemist up to?

[Blackstone]

True, but what I meant is that even without candles, there were speculations that Pate was in Oldtown for information or mischief. Considering the candle only adds one layer to the problem but does nothing to solve it.

Also, Faceless Men are not mischievous, they kill, that's all. I could at least understand if he wanted to use it as a radio emitter, but to transmit what?

They aren't just assasins, they are a spies as well. And, it appears that they have some kind of religous or political agenda as well.

[Errant Bard]

They aren't just assasins, they are a spies as well. And, it appears that they have some kind of religous or political agenda as well.

Is that fact or speculation? I'm interested in anything that proves they work as spies, beside Arya's training. I agree they have to gather information to carry their missions properly, but I can't remember anything that showed information was their focus or even something their dealt in.

[Blackstone]

Anyway, let me restate my theory in a bit more detail so others can tear it apart.

In short, my theory is that the Alchemist is not in the Citadel to kill anyone but to spy, collect information and potentially use the Obsidian Candle to further the agenda of the Faceless Men.

The prologue of the book introduces us to the hapless Pate, the Sphinx, the Alchemist, and then indirectly Marwyn the Mage and the Obsidian Candles. In the final chapter all of these characters (and items) make a second appearance all in the same room.

The Alchemist is of course a Faceless Man. Not only that, but it is implied he is the Faceless Man who disposed of Balon Greyjoy and also befriended Arya Stark. Quite the resume. He murders and replaces Pate and obtains from Pate the Iron Key that will work all the doors in the Citadel.

In the last chapters of the book we learn that Pate has not just been murdered by the Alchemist, but in fact replaced by the Alchemist. Therefore, one of the great mysteries of the book is why exactly have the Faceless Men infiltrated the Citadel, why did they choose Pate why did the Faceless Men choose this particular time to infiltrate the Citadel.

Pate is chosen as the Alchemist's victim because he is literally perfectly placed.

First, Pate is a rather unpromising novice -- which is perfect, because: (1) no one pays him any attention; (2) he is not actually expected to know anything useful. That last point is particularly important, because the Faceless Man cannot be expected to know accounting, history, healing, ravenry, etc. Therefore, the Alchemist cannot pose as a successful acolyte or novice -- let alone a Maester or an Arch Maester.

Second, Pate is also an excellent choice to be a replacement because of who he serves -- Arch Maester Walgrave. Any other Arch Maester might notice that something is different in their servant, but Walgrave -- senile as he is -- would be uncapable or discounted as a witness. Moreover, Walgrave is in charge of the ravens -- which suggests that messages to and from the citadel would pass through Walgrave -- and therefore Pate.

Third, Pate also has access to the Obsidian Candle. His sleeping cell is a floor below, and even if the chamber where the Candle was placed were locked, un-Pate has the skeleton key to the entire Citadel.

So, the Alchemist is in a position to intercept messages going into and out of the citadel and in a position to relay that information via the Obsidian Candle, or to use the Candle for its more esoteric purposes -- entering dreams, etc.

Now, the counter argument is to say that the Alchemist is in the Citadel to either steal something or to kill someone. If the Alchemist is there to kill someone, who could that person be?

Lazy Leo

the Sphinx

random Arch Maester

Marwyn the Mage

Samwell Tarly

Lord Hightower or someother Hightower

Aemon Targaryen

Leo and the Sphinx seem to be unimportant enough. If Marwin the Mage were the target, then he has had ample opportunity -- Marwyn arrived at the beginning of the book and left at the end. Likewise, some random other Arch Maester could have been disposed of, though the question would be why someone would bother.

If a Hightower is the target -- i.e. the Alchemist is still on Euron's payroll, shouldn't he be infiltrating the High Tower itself and not the Citadel.

If Samwell or Aemon were the targets, then should not the Faceless Men taken care of them in Braavos, while they were under the very noses of the Faceless Men?

Likewise, if the motivation is to steal something, what could that something possibly be. The only object of interest other than the key -- which is a means to an end, not an end itself -- is the glass candle.

Whether a pair of men could move it, the Alchemist has only himself. Further, I would think it would be difficult to steal something that is on fire.

[SFDanny]

Like the post, Blackstone, but here are two problems I see with it. You assume the target of the Alchemist has to be someone in the Citadel or in nearby Oldtown. If information is needed to identify either the whereabouts or the identity of a target, then the Citadel is a very likely place to go to find it - the target could be anywhere. Secondly, you assume the obsidian candle is the only object of interest. I see no reason to assume that is even the Citadel's most interesting treasure. They have been in "business" for a very long time, and I'd be willing to bet they've collected many other things of interest to be studied.

btw, as I've said a couple of times, whatever the Faceless Man is up to, I'd be willing to bet it ends with an assassination, not just a spying mission. Murder is what they do.

[wvlr]

Nice Post Blackstone but I agree with SFDanny that we need to add some more options to those you so eloquently provided. Pardon me if I don't properly integrate these with what you provided.

1. The "Candle" was not lit when the JH killed Pate - so there is the possibility that JH (not Marwin) lit the candle. (I consider this as unlikely but it is possible, since we never hear the statement that Marwin OR anyone else lit the "Candle".

2. The FM seem to use a large number of methods to kill - maybe he wants to use the "Candle" to kill someone far away?

3. As SFDanny said - the Candle was not even lit when JH arrived so it may have nothing to do with his mission. The same goes for Sam and A. Targ.

I am sure that there are other options but I can't think of them just now.

I agree with you on Pate being the perfect subject for takeover for the same reasons you mentioned.

What is a little strange to me is - that JH does not seem to feel the need to make his "Pate" conform exactly to the Old Pate.

a. He no longer shuns the "Pig Boy" moniker, but actually flaunts it now.

b. He also seems "brighter" and not as slow witted and is clearly seeking higher connections (Marwin).

c. He was clearly nervous around Masters before, but is not now.

I would be interested whether he will now start "picking up" links now. Surely there are several areas that he could easily qualify for a link.

[Blackstone]

Thanks!

1. The "Candle" was not lit when the JH killed Pate - so there is the possibility that JH (not Marwin) lit the candle. (I consider this as unlikely but it is possible, since we never hear the statement that Marwin OR anyone else lit the "Candle".

Actually, I believe that Lazy Leo brought them the news of the lit candle while they were all drinking cider in the prologue. That gave the Acolyte the opportunity to expound on its uses.

2. The FM seem to use a large number of methods to kill - maybe he wants to use the "Candle" to kill someone far away?

Impossible to rule out, but there isn't as yet any implication that one can do anymore than appear and converse with someone using the candle. Obviously, a very clever man might arrive at a way of killing someone with just that, but it doesn't seem very effective to me for that purpose.

3. As SFDanny said - the Candle was not even lit when JH arrived so it may have nothing to do with his mission. The same goes for Sam and A. Targ.

We really do not know when JH arrived in Oldtown. The students are discussing Balon Greyjoy's death IIRC, which suggests that it is what would be considered "breaking news." So, it seems to me that it could only be a few weeks after Balon's death that the cider drinking scene occurs. It would seem prudent to collect intelligence and scout before attempting to infiltrate, so I assume JH leaves the Iron Isles immediately for Old Town.

We also know that the candle was lit before the scene with the cider, but not how much before. It seem unlikely, however, that it could have been that mcuh before, considering the talk such an event would have caused.

What is a little strange to me is - that JH does not seem to feel the need to make his "Pate" conform exactly to the Old Pate.

a. He no longer shuns the "Pig Boy" moniker, but actually flaunts it now.

b. He also seems "brighter" and not as slow witted and is clearly seeking higher connections (Marwin).

c. He was clearly nervous around Masters before, but is not now.

I would be interested whether he will now start "picking up" links now. Surely there are several areas that he could easily qualify for a link.

The only real intelligence that JH has on Pate is what Rosy tells him, and she probably doesn't know as much about Pate as the rest of us. I agree, however, that he is on shaky ground, and that he is in serious jeapordy of being exposed.

[SFDanny]

Just to be clear, I don't think I ever said anything about when the obsidian candles were lit.

[Guest Other-in-law]

The only real intelligence that JH has on Pate is what Rosy tells him, and she probably doesn't know as much about Pate as the rest of us. I agree, however, that he is on shaky ground, and that he is in serious jeapordy of being exposed.

His recent behavior should certainly seem strange to anyone familiar with him, but it's still a big jump to go from 'acting odd lately' to 'impostor who looks exactly like him!', unless one was already familiar with Faceless Man glamours (which most people would be only in an abstract, detached sense, if at all).

That said, I'm pretty confident Sarella's got his number, or will soon.

[wvlr]

Thanks!

Actually, I believe that Lazy Leo brought them the news of the lit candle while they were all drinking cider in the prologue.

That's what I get for relying on memory. I was thinking (wrongly) it was at the end. Still, there is no reason to feel that the Candle is the most likely reason that he came - the Citadel must have MANY interesting items. The Candle was news - if not just a day old then only a couple. Surely it took JH longer than that to get from where he was at (Iron Islands maybe) to Old Town so he had to come for some other reason other than a "lit candle" that he would not have known about.

Impossible to rule out, but there isn't as yet any implication that one can do anymore than appear and converse with someone using the candle.

Well that part about getting into another person's mind sounds a little ominous to me and could potentially have FM applications. But of course we have very little info on both the FM and the Citadel at this point, so it is fun to speculate.

Just to be clear, I don't think I ever said anything about when the obsidian candles were lit.

Sorry if I was not clear. The part I was refering to was your statement that: "you assume the obsidian candle is the only object of interest. I see no reason to assume that"

I know that I pointed out some differences in the "New Pate" but I do not think that they would be of such a nature/volume that others would notice all that much. People have ups and downs naturally and the only reason we notice so much is that we have a special "view" as the reader.

[Blackstone]

I'm willing to concede that there might be other items of interest in the Citadel (though they are never mentioned).

I do think it is significant that we meet Pate, we meet the Alchemist directly in the FFC proglogue, and we are introduced to Marwyn and the Glass Candles in the prologue as well.

Then, in the last chapter, we meet them again all together in the same room.

For plot reasons, I think that meant that either Marwyn or the Glass Candles were the Alchemists targets, as Marwyn left for Danny unmolested by the Alchemist, I think that leaves the Glass Candles.

While it is certainly possible that the alchemist is after something else, it seems strage from a literary point of view not to have shown it what it is, even if its not stated openly. Again, the key is just a means to an end, not an end in inself.

[shadowbinding shoe]

If we believe that Jaquen is in the Citadel for information gathering purposes what better place to choose than the Citadel? If he wishes to use a slow poison should he not first estimate his esteemed opposition in these parts of the world? He would become the MFG temple's laughing stock if some nameless maester knew the cure to his deed. The maesters are famous worldwide for their healing abilities both in drugs and in knife work. They might easily even teach him a thing or two about the human body. As we know they are knowledgeable not only in the healing but in the illing as well.

Naturally a physiology class takes time so Jaquen hasn't done anything in FFC except learn all he can.

[a_homeless_harpy]

While it is certainly possible that the alchemist is after something else, it seems strage from a literary point of view not to have shown it what it is, even if its not stated openly. Again, the key is just a means to an end, not an end in inself.

What about the old books that Sam and Aemon brought to the Citadel? Aemon insisted on taking them as far as I remember.

do think it is significant that we meet Pate, we meet the Alchemist directly in the FFC proglogue, and we are introduced to Marwyn and the Glass Candles in the prologue as well.

Then, in the last chapter, we meet them again all together in the same room.

They will be important for sure, I agree.

[Guest Other-in-law]

There could be a tie-in here with the Grey-Sheep Conspiracy theory. Some have speculated that JH is at the Citadel seacrhing for some piece of valauble arcane information, but what could that be exactly? How about the recipe for dragon poison? That information (if it exists) would be one of the most carefully guarded secrets in the world, and could not be found anywhere else beside the Citadel.

In a different thread the question came up as to why the maesters would wait 150 years before taking the dragons out, and one possible answer was that it could be_very difficult_to poison a dragon, due to their being magical creatures and the 'fire purifies' aspect. Therefore, if the Faceless Men wished to kill Dany's dragons (which is by no means clear) they would want to benefit from previously discovered knowledge rather than wasting another 150 years reinventing the wheel. A variation on this could also work if the FM's motive was (for whatever reason) to prevent the dragons from being poisoned (also very unclear)...undertsanding the nature of the illness is vital to effecting a cure.

[a_homeless_harpy]

So far, we've been presented only a religious aspect of FM: giving the "gift" of death. Why do you think they should have a political agenda as well? I can hardly see them involved in toppling the kings or crowning them, they sell their killing skills to different regimes just to make some money.

How about the recipe for dragon poison? That information (if it exists) would be one of the most carefully guarded secrets in the world, and could not be found anywhere else beside the Citadel.

Dragons can be slain and I think that's the only way to kill them. Find a soft spot and thrust the blade with the pointy end. But of course, if a dragon poison exists, it would be something rare and long-forgotten, so only to be found with the maesters.

[Blackstone]

Books or scrolls of knowledge are certainly extremely valuable items. If the Alchemist is after a book or scroll, the problem is that the Citadel is likely to let him simply make a copy of it. The Alchemist could simply pose as a scholar from the east and beg access to a particular book or scroll to make a copy. No need to murder and impersonate Pate.

Let's take it one step further and assume that the knowledge is of a dangerous nature. I don't particularly like the speculation of the "dragon poison," but assuming that this exists, why wouldn't Pate simply make a copy of it or steal it and hit the road. After all, his continuing masquerade is extremely dangerous to the mission and to himself. Every day that he goes on pretending to be a known person, he risks exposure.

Because the Alchemist has been masquerading as Pate for the entirety of AFFC, I think it's most likely that his mission is of a continuing nature -- which brings me back to spying again.

[a_homeless_harpy]

If the Alchemist is after a book or scroll, the problem is that the Citadel is likely to let him simply make a copy of it.

Some books are deemed so dangerous that they are kept in an enclosed area - a master key to all the chambers would be a great help if you wanted to look at them. Asking for a copy would draw unnecessary attention (especially if you are masquerading as one of the slowest and the least promising students). BTW an original is almost always better than a copy, especially if you want to prevent everybody else from learning the same thing you did.

Because the Alchemist has been masquerading as Pate for the entirety of AFFC, I think it's most likely that his mission is of a continuing nature -- which brings me back to spying again.

I agree here, he was definitely meant to stay in Oldtown disguised as an apprentice maester and keep his eyes open waiting for an info about...dragons? He also wanted to have a full access to every chamber of the Citadel so maybe he was waiting for a sign to kill somebody in the right moment.

[wvlr]

Actually, I really like the way this thread is going. JH trying to work his way into the Citadel to gain a little bit of old dusty information sounds interesting. That that information might have to do with a poison would fit the known FM MO of knowing and seeking many "poisons".

They could have "heard" that such a poison existed and possible had recently recieved a commission to dispose of three troublesome "dragons".

Danny has certianally made enough enemies that someone would be willing to pay for such a thing. I doubt that the Lannisters wound have done such a thing but there are plenty of others - the Wizards, the Sully Masters, ++++++++++.

The main flaw that I see is that - why not have the FM just kill HER! Maybe they plan that for later - but they want to hurt her first. Who knows!

If that is the FM agenda - My favorite suspect for hiring the FM for this task is LITTLEFINGER! He is really thriving under the Lannister Cluster-Fuxx of the 7 Kingdoms so he might feel that Danny coming over with three Dragons would put a monkey wrench into his goals. Face it - Three dragons will put a quick end to the currrent turmoil. That's not good for Littlefinger, it also throws a wrench into his Sansa plans.

In all the Sansa POVs or others we have seen nothing about Littlefinger's views/actions/concerns about Danny. Unlike Cersei who has heard of but ignored the threat - Surely Littlefinger must be doing SOMETHING! He is Really Rich and can afford a FM - AND STRANGELY KNOWS WHAT ONE COST!

We see no other LF action to handle Danny - I really doubt that he would just ignore the threat and he has not "sent" anyone to her - that we know of - so what else might he do - hire FM and if they succeed he gets what he wants - more 7 K termoil. If they fail - he can always blame the Lannisters.

Any other ideas anyone???

[Blackstone]

Personally, I don't really like where this thread is going. There is simply no evidene for any kind of "dragon poison" of any kind and no evidence -- other than the ravings of Arch-Crank Marwynn that the citadel had any hand in dragonslaying.

[Guest Other-in-law]

There is simply no evidene for any kind of "dragon poison" of any kind and no evidence -- other than the ravings of Arch-Crank Marwynn that the citadel had any hand in dragonslaying.

(Shrug) Well, there is the question of why exactly those last two dragons would have died so very young and sickly, so that their skulls were "misshapen" according to Tyrion. And plenty of circumstantial evidence for hostility on the part of the mainstream maesters toward magic, which the dragons are linked to.

[wvlr]

(Shrug) Well, there is the question of why exactly those last two dragons would have died so very young and sickly, so that their skulls were "misshapen" according to Tyrion. And plenty of circumstantial evidence for hostility on the part of the mainstream maesters toward magic, which the dragons are linked to.

I think it would be a great new interesting "twist" to the story line. And the truth is - we have not had any prior opportunity to see this side of the Masters/Citadel - just as we finally got some new Insights into Dorne and the Iron Isles.

Expanded views are going to usually bring expanded "Insights"