What is the Alchemist up to?

[A wilding]

In retrospect I was confused that the merchant did decide the price, because I had not previously had that impression. Having reread the passage I now see why. The Waif’s conversation is couched in explicitly religious terms, she talks about the payments to the FM as a “sacrifice†and “an offeringâ€. So when she says that the merchant offers 2/3 of his wealth plus his daughter to the Many Faced God, she means it in the religious sense, I don’t think we can assume that means that unilaterally decided on the price himself. To me it seems more likely that he entered into negotiations with the priests, who told him that that was what he would have to offer. I just don’t see him walking into the temple with sacks of gold & his daughter and dropping them on the altar without negotiations up front.

Again, I think that the tipping point, convincing me that the FM set the price, is that the daughter presumably has little value to the FM, so the only reason for the merchant giving her up would seem to be that he values her.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Again, I think that the tipping point, convincing me that the FM set the price, is that the daughter presumably has little value to the FM, so the only reason for the merchant giving her up would seem to be that he values her.

She's a girl of noble birth, plus the heir to an ancient house and its holdings. One might as easily conclude that Cersei kept Sansa for religious purposes.

[A wilding]

I am not sure how hereditary the merchant class of Braavos are, certainly the FM don't seem to have made any use of the Waif's title and/or social status (if any). As for her family's wealth, they have already taken most of it.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I am not sure how hereditary the merchant class of Braavos are, certainly the FM don't seem to have made any use of the Waif's title and/or social status (if any).

We don't really know what they've done with it. In any case, you can hardly say that the waif was worthless to the Faceless Men, and there goes the last lingering textual thread of this particular theory.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Then why did they offer the gift to the masters of Valyria, who were not (so far as we know) suffering greatly? Why would they work as assassins? (Do they specialize in killing people with terminal cancer or something?) It clearly can't be just about ending suffering.

Granted, it's likely not just about ending suffering.

But if they wanted to effect mass murder, they'd already be doing so. They're very, very good at killing.

And remember Jaqen H'ghar's (sp?) careful attention to the balance of death? He gave Arya three deaths because she had stolen three from death. What's balanced about just turning over Westeros to murderous Others?

The Faceless Men are fascinating and probably important, given the mystery we're discussing and Arya's involvement with them, but I think you have the wrong take on them. Sure, taken literally "valar morghulis" might be thought to imply that all men should die, or they want all men to die. But "valar dohaeris" (sp?) wouldn't make sense if they just want everybody dead. I think it's pretty clear that they mean all men must die eventually, with when and where being somehow up to their god. Their attention to whether Pate is a thief suggests that they don't want people to die unless they somehow "deserve" to, on grounds that I don't understand. In fact, my guess is that Arya's blindness has something to do with learning about when people can/should die. They may have decided to teach their take on the morality of it all, given that she's going to kill people in any event.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Well, no. But they are assassins and murderers, and thus are in the business of giving the gift to people whether or not those people want it. Their philosophy either covers this (in which case death is a good thing for all people, no matter what, full stop), or it is a bunch of nonsense that they spout as a cover for more self-interested ends. There's no third possibility here.

You appear to be highly intelligent, thoughtful, and articulate. Consequently, your narrow absolutism with respect to the FM is almost shocking. You seem to want the FM to be consistent in a simple way, bringing to mind Emerson's famous quote: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds ..."

No third option? It isn't possible for the FM to have complex, philosophically satisfying rules about life and death, just because they sometimes serve as assassins? After all, we generally believe in the right to life, yet we permit people to be killed for a variety of reasons, such as conviction of murder. Clearly they don't agree with our particular political philosophy, but there are a lot of differences between the world of ASoIaF and the leading civilizations of today.

The religion of the MFG is based on death. Dedicating one's life to serving death permits one to grasp quite a complex system of belief about death (and life), no doubt with room for all sorts of exceptions. For example, given that people will kill other people under some circumstances, whether priests of the MFG think those targets should die or not, isn't it just as well if the FM get involved in such actions under certain circumstances? Involved, they can exercise some control, perhaps see to it that a life is saved in balance (if only death can pay for life, perhaps only life can pay for death). And if such particular death results in advantageous economic consequences for their religion, well, what's not to like? After all, their particular focus (over thousands of years) gives them unique abilities and knowledge useful to effect death.

The Catholic Church has done, and does, things that seem inconsistent with their principles. Indeed, an omnipotent and benevolent god that permits horrendous crime and suffering seems to be a contradiction. Yet that hasn't stopped millions of people from following the Church devotedly, and the justifications it has set forth for its apparently inconsistent actions are philosophically satisfying to at least some. Yet the FM have been around much longer than the Catholic Church, and hence have had time to develop an even more subtle philosophy.

You seem to feel personally affronted because the FM and other servants of the MFG behave in a manner that strikes you as unconscionably inconsistent. I submit that it only seems philosophically inconsistent because you have very little understanding of the complexities of their beliefs. It seems likely that GRRM will enlighten us in that regard, at least to some extent. Meanwhile, I think you will probably admit to yourself that your assertion that "there is no third option" was unwarranted.

[zep243]

This discussion reminds me of a theory I had a while back about the Faceless Men. The religious philosophies shown imparted to Arya seem (in part) to contradict their willingness to take on paid assassinations. The targets paid for are not people they were going to kill anyway, and they don't seem to be all that discriminatory about what targets they take on, whereas they do seem to discriminate about who they kill for their own purposes.

My theory was that the assassinations are simply a means to an end. They are a religious organization that requires money/membership to sustain itself, as well as the ability to build up a mystique around themselves that will keep people from asking questions. This leaves them free to train limited # of members as well as accomplish whatever goals/tasks/killings they see fit (or what they believe the MFG sees fit). I think they have some sort of singular purpose in mind, and taking on the occasional killing suits that. They have extremely high prices to keep away all but those who have the means to afford them, that way their assassins aren't always busy on jobs, but can see to the MFG's tasks as well.

So following this logic, it seems that the Alchemist is in Oldtown for something other than just an overpriced killing, otherwise it seems like he would have performed the job and split by now. My guess is that the FM or even H'agar himself must have some other purpose to infiltrating the Citadel.

[blackforest67]

This discussion reminds me of a theory I had a while back about the Faceless Men. The religious philosophies shown imparted to Arya seem (in part) to contradict their willingness to take on paid assassinations. The targets paid for are not people they were going to kill anyway, and they don't seem to be all that discriminatory about what targets they take on, whereas they do seem to discriminate about who they kill for their own purposes.

My theory was that the assassinations are simply a means to an end. They are a religious organization that requires money/membership to sustain itself, as well as the ability to build up a mystique around themselves that will keep people from asking questions. This leaves them free to train limited # of members as well as accomplish whatever goals/tasks/killings they see fit (or what they believe the MFG sees fit). I think they have some sort of singular purpose in mind, and taking on the occasional killing suits that. They have extremely high prices to keep away all but those who have the means to afford them, that way their assassins aren't always busy on jobs, but can see to the MFG's tasks as well.

So following this logic, it seems that the Alchemist is in Oldtown for something other than just an overpriced killing, otherwise it seems like he would have performed the job and split by now. My guess is that the FM or even H'agar himself must have some other purpose to infiltrating the Citadel.

I'm sure his prupose is a complex one. Remember, George wrote that prologue for a reason and seeing as how the other prologues are, I'm sure something extremely significant is going to happen that's directly tied to this storyline.

[Blackstone]

If the Alchemist is masquerading as Pate to steal something, he has had plenty of opportunity to steal it. Likewise, if he is there to murder someone, he has been in Old Town long enough to accomplish that feat as well.

Thus, I'm forced to conclude that murder or theft aren't motice and that spying is the most likely motive.

[shadowbinding shoe]

About Faceless men motivation, I always had the notion that the real reason people come to them for assassins instead of doing it themselves or finding someone cheaper is that if faceless men do the assassination you are guiltless to the gods. For example Euron goes to the Faceless men to kill his brother so he won't be a kin-slayer. Similarly the waif's father has no guilt in his wife's death. You went to pray in the MFG temple and the MF god granted your wish. No mortal hand was involved and hence there was no sin.

[shadowbinding shoe]

If the Alchemist is masquerading as Pate to steal something, he has had plenty of opportunity to steal it. Likewise, if he is there to murder someone, he has been in Old Town long enough to accomplish that feat as well.

Thus, I'm forced to conclude that murder or theft aren't motice and that spying is the most likely motive.

I agree. The Citadel is the nerve center of Westeros. And Pate is specifically living in the Raven's tower. From there he can communicate with his guild across the sea, gather information from all across the continent.

[SFDanny]

I agree. The Citadel is the nerve center of Westeros. And Pate is specifically living in the Raven's tower. From there he can communicate with his guild across the sea, gather information from all across the continent.

Until the last chapter he is living in close proximity to Marwyn. It is quite possible he is looking for information that only he could have provided him. The real identity or whereabouts of a target?

[wvlr]

Don't forget that in the Arya chapters Jaqen H'ghar he specifically tells her that all she has to do is "whisper" the three names and the three will die. He says something like it may be soon or it may take a long time, but they will die. Specifically, he mentions that it can take time to reach the person, but maybe it is more than that. Maybe once he reaches the target "unless he has already been told of a crime like the Waif's stepmother tried to kill her" then he has to wait until he can find some criminal act committed by the target. At Hannerhall Jaqen H'ghar was well aware of everyone there and when Arya "whispered" her names, he could have quickly gone through his personal list and said to himself "Yes, I have seen x-person commit this crime so I can kill him now." None of the people at Hannerhall were particularly "nice" so probably most anyone were alread "qualified" for death by FM standards, including the guards that got "Weseal Soup".

Have we ever seen them actually kill someone that we know is completely "inocent"? Even Pate was "as far as we know" inocent until Jaqen H'ghar tricked him into committing a crime. And as far as we know on that - the only reason Jaqen H'ghar killed him is that he was just "in the way". Even then Jaqen H'ghar had to trick him to commit a crime first.

I also see the FM as an interesting "cult", but I don't think - as yet - that they are inconsistent. I think that we just do not know the rules.

[shadowbinding shoe]

The whole assassination as punishment for crimes notion is weak to me. You can find dirt on anybody. He was mean to his friends, he lied to his mother, he cheated on his wife. So at most this is merely a scapegoat to justify the murders. On the other hand the people Jaquen was closely associated with were monsters by any way you look at it (Biter and Rorge and later the soldiers in the troop he joined in Harrenhall). I think it is even strongly implied that the three of them were partners even before they were arrested in KL. He never does them any harm. If morals are so important to him how can he take Rorge and Biter as his partners and let them walk free at the end? Jaquen reprimanded Arya for her bloodthirstiness and judgmental attitude. He seemed to say that only the gods had the right to judge a man to death.

[Blackstone]

I have it!

He is masquerading as Pate and is close to Marwyn (before his departure) to have access to the Obsidian Candle.

[Errant Bard]

Answers nothing though. Why does he want to have access to the obsidian candle? Why is he staying when he could take it? Why use such a complex scheme and impersonate Pate?

[Blackstone]

Firstly, that particular Obsidian candle does not appear to be mobile, given that its size. Which requires the Faceless Man to be near it.

Pate, is a perfect cover since his quarters are in that tower, with the candle and he attends arch maester walgrave, who is senile. There is no way that he can be denied access to the candle, since he has Walgrave's key.

As to why the candle, the candles can be used to appear in people's dreams, to converse over long distances, and to scry. Information collection is not just something the Faceless Men have Arya do. Also, think of the mischief a faceless man could cause with the ability to talk to people in a dream.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Firstly, that particular Obsidian candle does not appear to be mobile, given that its size. Which requires the Faceless Man to be near it.

the candle is not that big. a men or two would be able to carry it (in a crate perhaps?)

[Guest Other-in-law]

the candle is not that big. a men or two would be able to carry it (in a crate perhaps?)

Indeed; there was a theory a while back that the original purpose of the glass candles was to use as a sword against the Others.

[Errant Bard]

As to why the candle, the candles can be used to appear in people's dreams, to converse over long distances, and to scry. Information collection is not just something the Faceless Men have Arya do. Also, think of the mischief a faceless man could cause with the ability to talk to people in a dream.

True, but what I meant is that even without candles, there were speculations that Pate was in Oldtown for information or mischief. Considering the candle only adds one layer to the problem but does nothing to solve it.

Also, Faceless Men are not mischievous, they kill, that's all. I could at least understand if he wanted to use it as a radio emitter, but to transmit what?