DanteGabriel Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 Oh man. The classic Catelyn jihads. I think Catelyn is one of the most balanced and believable characters in the series, and claims of her heartlessness, I've found, are overblown. But I'm probably biased just because I get along with my mother. Good times, good times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 As we noticed here, it's that time of the month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garlan_the_gallant Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 Sansa does not suck at all. She is a compassionate young lady who has gone out of her way to help people and makes a point of being courteous despite the harm that has been done to her. Sansa does not suck at all. She is the lovechild of Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister. See how word choice matters in an argument? Haha thanks for the lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nclark Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 just as I started to like Sansa, the little bastard didn't kneel to allow Tyrion to put his cloak on her when they got married. and then Joff made him use ser Dontos as a stool. I felt really bad for Tyrion, and truly hated Sansa at that moment I agree. except I wasn't starting to like Sansa, just starting to loathe her less. edit: my dislike for her is not to say that I don't find her to be a fantastic character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vhailorx Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 That other people have been off topic doesn't make your post more on-topic, and Catelyn bashing deserves counterarguments. Since I know how such discussions go, I directed you to whole threads dedicated to that subject. I fail to see the vitriol anywhere. Well, some other posters (such as snake) discussed being disappointed with Catelyn's actions. In a thread about being disappointed in the actions of characters, can I not respond to someone else's comments? As for vitriol, you used expressions like 'oh please' and more recently 'did we read the same book' and 'pray enlighten me' that express not only disagreement with me opinions, but scorn for them as well. You miss my point. Rules are made by the ones in power, Tyrion has nothing to "lawyer" with those in power during his trial. Who is in power when Cersei is tried? Not her, but a radical branch of the faith, insisting on rules. Besides, KG are forced to fight for Cersei, the rest of the knights are not. In truth, who would fight for her if she asked the crowd? noone that's who. But the point i was making is that Tyrion could have at least tried a tactic that would result in someone other than Gregor fighting for cersei, even if his father had ignored the traditional rules. He didn't even bother. Personally, I think that GRRM only decided to implement the 'rule' about KG fighting for the royal family until AFFC, making this a very minor continuity error. Correction, he rebelled against a monarch who killed his brother and father, who covered the abduction of his sister, and who asked for his head and Robert's. On top of that, he was following the lead of his adoptive father Jon Arryn. I don't see how Stannis can be compared to Aerys on all these points. I don't even see how copper Renly is so much better than Iron Stannis, pray enlighten me. How is that a correction? Aerys' crimes don't have any bearing on his kingship. He WAS the legitimate king (unless you supported the Blackfyre claim, which ned apparently did not). That he was a VERY BAD king is irrelevant. Ned Stark was willing to break the law in the face of manifest injustice. And I never said Stannis (or Renly) would be like Aerys. nor did I ever mention the possibility of renly being king. All I said was that ned's own words suggest that he didn't think stannis would be a good king (he's 'just but harsh'). And therefore it would be in the interests of the people of the 7 Kingdoms to work for a safe, peaceful transition of power to a just king. Ned did try to do that in the end (using the city watch as his muscle), but he wanted to let cersei and the children flee to exile. He should have seized them (which he tried to do in the throne room). And after hearing Cersei's threats and knowing that she had no intention of going softly into exile, and suspecting/disliking littlefinger he should have agreed to renly's offer, if only to expand his own power-base. What was the downside of accepting Renly? Emnity when Ned revealed the incest and made stannis king? That doesn't really seem like something Ned would worry about. That's what he was trying to do. Did we read the same books? Yes, we just have different opinions about them. what's the problem? Also, it's true that I don't like Catelyn, but i don't think accusing me of vendetta is very helpful. I had one paragraph about her in a post that was otherwise devoted to my take on the original topic question. I don't see anything going on here except you (Errant Bard) getting snarky because we disagree about a few things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KatieG Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I agree. except I wasn't starting to like Sansa, just starting to loathe her less. edit: my dislike for her is not to say that I don't find her to be a fantastic character. See, I had the exact opposite reaction. I kinda admired Sansa for standing up for herself in pretty much the only way she could. Yeah, I like Tyrion, and also kinda felt bad for him, but at the same time, can't blame Sansa one little bit for her little show of defiance. At least she was showing some spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackfish Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I don't think people quite grasp the whole POV thing. From Sansa's POV, Tyrion's family killed hers and has kept her prisoner. No matter how entertaining the reader finds Tyrion, Sansa does not know him, she is scared, she has been beaten and psychologically cowed, she's a 12 year old being forced into a marriage she does not want by people who are keeping her captive against her will. It's just how it shakes out that her standing up for herself comes at the expense of Tyrion's pride. That's the ugly truth of the world, that's the whole point of the role of perspective in ASOIAF. Ironic, sure. But isn't that what people want from ASOIAF, complexity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HP Loveshaft Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I don't think people quite grasp the whole POV thing. From Sansa's POV, Tyrion's family killed hers and has kept her prisoner. No matter how entertaining the reader finds Tyrion, Sansa does not know him, she is scared, she has been beaten and psychologically cowed, she's a 12 year old being forced into a marriage she does not want by people who are keeping her captive against her will. It's just how it shakes out that her standing up for herself comes at the expense of Tyrion's pride. That's the ugly truth of the world, that's the whole point of the role of perspective in ASOIAF. Ironic, sure. But isn't that what people want from ASOIAF, complexity? I agree completely, but the Tyrion fans aren't going to change their minds. Heck, there are characters who kill children that are revered around here. Totally bizarre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vhailorx Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I don't think people quite grasp the whole POV thing. From Sansa's POV, Tyrion's family killed hers and has kept her prisoner. No matter how entertaining the reader finds Tyrion, Sansa does not know him, she is scared, she has been beaten and psychologically cowed, she's a 12 year old being forced into a marriage she does not want by people who are keeping her captive against her will. It's just how it shakes out that her standing up for herself comes at the expense of Tyrion's pride. That's the ugly truth of the world, that's the whole point of the role of perspective in ASOIAF. Ironic, sure. But isn't that what people want from ASOIAF, complexity? true enough, but tyrion was the only person who consistently treated her nicely during her entire period of captivity in KL. The only person who comes close is the Hound, but he enjoyed scaring her. Tyrion saved her from a savage beating (and perhaps several) and was polite and kind to her at every opportunity. None of which means that I don't understand why she didn't kneel for him. But it is a closer thing with tyrion that it would have been with any other person in kings landing. It's a great scene, if quite sad. honestly, if i liked sansa a bit more it might have made my own list of disappointments by favorite characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackfish Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 true enough, but tyrion was the only person who consistently treated her nicely during her entire period of captivity in KL. One of the few, yes. That's what makes the scene ironic and the role of perspective really compelling. Cersei was also completely kind and polite to Sansa in AGOT, that didn't work out so well for the girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Alchemist Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 Beric killing himself by resurrecting Cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A wilding Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 true enough, but tyrion was the only person who consistently treated her nicely during her entire period of captivity in KL. He was nice to her yes, even if he continued to keep her prisoner and contributed all he could to the downfall of her family; but earlier Cersei and Joffrey had mostly been nice to her as well, and when she finally saw through them, she told herself that she would never again be so foolish as to trust any Lannister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackfish Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 ^ And it's even more ironic because people's biggest problem with Sansa is her naivete. See what a string-pulling genius GRRM is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nclark Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I don't think people quite grasp the whole POV thing. From Sansa's POV, Tyrion's family killed hers and has kept her prisoner. No matter how entertaining the reader finds Tyrion, Sansa does not know him, she is scared, she has been beaten and psychologically cowed, she's a 12 year old being forced into a marriage she does not want by people who are keeping her captive against her will. It's just how it shakes out that her standing up for herself comes at the expense of Tyrion's pride. That's the ugly truth of the world, that's the whole point of the role of perspective in ASOIAF. Ironic, sure. But isn't that what people want from ASOIAF, complexity? I get the POV thing. and if I sit down and look at each POV as a stand alone, then Sansa isn't too bad, but when I'm reading the books as a whole, and threading all of the POVs together, I can't help but dislike Sansa. I don't like disliking a scared, little girl, but I just can't help it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsphodelElysium Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Just throwing in my disappointed moment. I was absurdly bothered when Tyrion stepped on Marillion's hand when the latter was trapped under a horse during a fight on their journey to the Eyrie. It struck me as cruel and petty on Tyrion's part even though Marillion was a jerk. Coming in a close second is Dany's attitude toward Jorah. The whole "he's too lowborn for me" but she wanted to be involved with the sellsword because "he is handsome" was just a little too hypocritical for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 The whole "he's too lowborn for me" Where does she say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Sand Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 GRRM does such a nice job of giving every character black spots. When you get to thinking about it, it's relatively hard to come up with characters that haven't done something reprehensible, illegal, petty, or just plain stupid. Maybe Tommen, Myrcella, Margaery among the main characters. It's easier with background characters like Jeor Mormont or Brandon Stark or Mikken because we know less about them and they have fewer dimensions. Who else can we identify that is without blame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsphodelElysium Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Where does she say that? I do believe it is right after he kisses her the first time on the ship in ASoS. She's reflecting on the moment and how inappropriate it was. I don't have the book on me or I'd give you the page numbers. I was just horrified by her reaction because he loves her so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoë Sumra Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 GRRM does such a nice job of giving every character black spots. When you get to thinking about it, it's relatively hard to come up with characters that haven't done something reprehensible, illegal, petty, or just plain stupid. Maybe Tommen, Myrcella, Margaery among the main characters. ...Margaery must have known about the plot to kill Joffrey. If she hadn't known, she'd have been odds on to get poisoned too. Standing beside a bloke in the sept and marrying him in full knowledge that he's going to die in the next few hours is, IMO, very reprehensible. I hope that the whole plot thing comes out and Margarey goes down for it. Hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 I was just horrified by her reaction because he loves her so much.He loves the reflection of his first wife in her, rather. Also, he's 30 years older than her. No matter how Dany justifies the rejection, I think it's just normal for a teenager to shy from a relation with someone who could be her grandfather. Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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