Arya's Purpose?

[AvengingAryaFan]

...

Isn't it funny how suddenly one doesn't need to be either lord or king nor to hold any hearing to "legally" condemn somebody when justification of Hound's crimes is at stake? Oh, and chopping Mycah's body in pieces before giving it to his family must have been part of the legal process, too! But Sandor isn't a crazed killer with the potential to become worse than his brother, oh no. Not at all!

Hey, wait a minute - haven't you read my other posts? That last was irony I was directing at other posters! In the previous paragraph I described it as a "wholly gratuitous murder." To me, and apparently to Arya, it's classic evil. Why else does she "hound" the Hound with it?

Your defense of Sansa is fairly complete. I think I disagree, but it's a close call. I can't reread that section to get a better sense of it, 'cause I loaned my AGOT to a potential convert. But instead of telling you, I'll ask you: do you think GRRM does things by accident? And, why do you suppose Sansa's wolf dies at that particular time? The plot rationale is really rather strained, don't you think?

But even if, as I suggest, some important part of Sansa's "Starkness" died that day, that doesn't mean she suddenly loses her entire identity. I mean, she is beautiful, obedient, believes in true knights, means no harm, and is still a Stark to all appearances. A symbolic death of a part of her wouldn't be a physical death or make her a soulless zombie; Sansa must carry on substantially as before.

Maybe I read too much into the death of her wolf, but then again - they were introduced when we met the family, Robb's wolf died with him, and they all have incredibly close spiritual (warg) relationships with their corresponding kid. So I have to look for SOME symbolic meaning in them. I consider the death of her wolf to remove some sort of protection of her moral center. Come to think of it, that would be consistent with everybody saying Arya is disturbed (morally lost?); she is, after all, temporarily lost from her wolf ... but at least Nymeria isn't dead. Reconnection with her wolf might herald the "redemption" people want for her. [Me, I just want her wolf to help her do a Castamere on the Freys before she goes getting redeemed]

Finally, I find Sansa fairly sympathetic -- I just find her less extraordinarily honor/justice driven than Jon and Arya. I find her acting as a reasonable child would in the circumstances. Will Sansa be dazzled by such a brilliant manipulator and self-made man as LF, like an ordinary child would be? Of course, the "I'm stronger within the walls of Winterfell" quote suggests some Stark loyalty or identity ... or possessiveness? I just fear that she's unmoored from her strict Stark honor, and that's why I keep thinking she's the most "at risk" of the kids. I worry about her Stark sense of honor and justice the way other posters seem to worry about Arya's human decency (which doesn't concern me a bit, because in my view GRRM lays it on thick that she remains "good").

[Poobah]

Poobs: Apologies if that seemed willfully elitist or something. A trope is something that is common in literature (though people use it with movies and TV also), a pattern or a theme. Sometimes people interchange the term, at least in ASOIAF talk, with the word "archetype" if the trope is concerning a character (you can also have setting or plot tropes -- Wiki suggests "the prison break" or "the haunted castle").

I'd say the sympathetic unruly tomboy sister is a common pattern in literature. It's common to compare and play female "types" against each other to pick one female type as worthy of our sympathies. In modern incarnations it's often a prissy/girly "in-crowd" type vs a rough'n'ready/tomboyish "outcrowd" type, I swear it's part of 70% of every teen movie to come out of the 80's. But you can find them all over literature too, Meg and Jo March from 1868's Little Women as a fairly benign example (benign as in, the necessity to dislike Meg wasn't very strong there). If you've seen Mean Girls, that movie would not be able to exist without this trope to play with and subvert.

A trope isn't inherently valueless (I'll probably watch the crappiest prison break movie ever made because I just love that trope). But IMO it's unlikely that GRRM intended for Arya to start out with zero sympathy and build to her peak sympathy at the stage of the plot we're at now. It's more likely that you're "supposed" to love Arya and then slowly start to watch her with a little horror, both at herself and at yourself for wanting at least in part for her to get her bloody justice. Her early story is stacked to the brim with sympathizing moments, her insecurities at being a lady, her closeness with Jon, etc.

But if it's not integral to AvengingAryaFan's point, that's cool with me and I'll drop it.

I don't really have time to read the whole page, but I'd just like to say that it's fine I didn't mean to suggest that you were being elitest, only that while I like to read I'm not paticularily familiar with litery terminology Thank you for the explaination.

-Poobs

[AvengingAryaFan]

...

[Lady Blackfish]

Maia,

I certainly agree that there are other characters who do disturbing things and aren't called out for it at all. This is part of what I think it's appropriate to call archetype facilitation, and yes it is much more facilitated for bad boys like Sandor to be disturbing. People don't bat an eyelash, on the contrary it makes them bad-ass and adds to their allure. But it is much less facilitated for female characters, so when they show the strains of survival it's more controversial. I don't think that makes Arya's (understandable) desensitization to violence go away, however.

I do think a lot of people agree that Joffrey is sociopathic or very near it.

[Poobah]

About Arya's stitches, I recall reading a thread where someone pointed out that Arya was forced to stitch right handed and is, of course, a leftie. Not sure where the thread / post was or if any evidence was provided that she was stitching right handed though.

-Poobs

[Werthead]

Sorry, but this thread has stepped over the line with an outbreak of name-calling and 'over-enthusiastic' discussion.

Can everyone please calm down and conduct themselves appropriately or I will be forced to lock this thread. Thank you.

[AvengingAryaFan]

...I don't think that makes Arya's (understandable) desensitization to violence go away, however.

I do think a lot of people agree that Joffrey is sociopathic or very near it.

(and earlier you said:)

It did seem to me you were saying, however, that GRRM's intended subversion was to switch readers from disprefering Arya to finding her a hero despite ethical and moral clouds. If it's not really an important factor, hey cool with me. But if it's been asserted I'd have to disagree with it, that's all.

Desensitization to violence, specifically killing, seems to be the only characteristic that even begins to justify calling Arya a sociopath. And if Joffrey, who is sadistic as well as kills without remorse, is merely "sociopathic or very near it," that would seem to exonerate Arya from such a charge because she's opposite to Joffrey in terms of decency and compassion ... that must count for something when drawing a conclusion of sociopathy.

As to the other, no, I didn't assert that. I never thought of her as initially dispreferred from the reader standpoint; any dispreference I referred to was from the point of view of her family and associates, i.e. the characterization setup.

Irrespective of her initial reader preference level, I wasn't suggesting Arya was MORE heroic now, just that she's been very consistent in her humanity, compassion, and sense of justice. GRRM seems to me to be saying that breaking rules, and even killing, don't make a person bad; Arya is the example of the "good" person doing those things.

But she's certainly inured to killing, going way past the rule-breaker or tomboy tropes in that regard, which has made an awful lot of posters very uncomfortable with her. But I can't understand how so many posters fail to see all the cues George puts in to show that she's still just the lovable tomboy, except in an extraordinarily dangerous and violent situation where learning to kill was not only sensible, it was probably essential to her survival. He's stretched, not subverted the trope.

With GRRM frequently reinforcing Arya's positive aspects of diligence, fearlessness, compassion, fairness, etc., I find it surprising that stretching the trope in just this one dimension ... acceptance of death as useful when sensible ... has caused so many posters to lose significant sympathy for her, particularly in view of her desperate circumstances. But it will get worse: George seems to be setting Arya up to indulge in a whole lot more vigilantism, so the people who are down on her now will really be discouraged about her. Since all these people seem able to ignore the evidence of her continued "goodness," maybe those who wish for a truly "fallen" favorite character will get their wish.

[Maia]

Maybe I read too much into the death of her wolf, but then again - they were introduced when we met the family, Robb's wolf died with him, and they all have incredibly close spiritual (warg) relationships with their corresponding kid. So I have to look for SOME symbolic meaning in them. I consider the death of her wolf to remove some sort of protection of her moral center.

I do think that the wolves are symbolic, but of some important part of their owners personality, not their moral center. Robb made a lot of decisions that were morally dubious, IMHO and his wolf was always by his side. Similarly, I think that if there is a truly troubled kid with possible dark future (if the timeline progresses enough for him to be significant at all) among the young generation, then it is Rickon and his wolf is with him also. What do they represent?

IMHO, Sansa's wolf represented her innocence and illusions. It took time for them to die after Lady was no more, but Sansa isn't getting them back, ever.

Shaggy clearly represents Rickon's anger and rage.

Nymeria I think represents Arya's need for fellowship and desire to lead. That's why they are separated, as Arya has been forced to become increasingly solitary and learned not to rely on others. But they are both alive, so maybe Arya can yet regain that part of her personality. Frankly, Nymeria's queenly name and obvious leadership drive make me think that Arya is meant to be something other than an assassin or a "lone wolf" bad-ass.

Nor do I think that one needs a wolf to be a "true" Stark - after all, previous generations didn't. And Sansa was at her least Starkish while Lady was alive.

I just fear that she's unmoored from her strict Stark honor, and that's why I keep thinking she's the most "at risk" of the kids.

I think that our idea of "Stark honor" is largely formed by Ned and in smaller degree by Benjen. I strongly suspect that both Lord Rickard and Brandon Sr. may have failed by this standard. IMHO, there is no such beast, apart from general family traditions dear to high nobility. There is no inborn trait that makes Starks better than other people and they can turn towards evil as easily as the next person. Nor is bonding to an animal going to prevent it, as skin-changers can be vicious too (see Varamyr).

Lady Blackfish:

But it is much less facilitated for female characters, so when they show the strains of survival it's more controversial. I don't think that makes Arya's (understandable) desensitization to violence go away, however.

Indeed. However, there are tens of thousands of people who were similarly desensitized by the war, and did much worse than Arya, IMHO. In fact, society such as Westeros requires certain professional groups to be so desensitized and even your run of the mill commoner enjoys scenes of violence, like public executions. Their world just isn't ours and IMHO that needs to be taken into account.

[AvengingAryaFan]

I do think that the wolves are symbolic, but of some important part of their owners personality, not their moral center.

...

IMHO, Sansa's wolf represented her innocence and illusions. It took time for them to die after Lady was no more, but Sansa isn't getting them back, ever.

Shaggy clearly represents Rickon's anger and rage.

Nymeria I think represents Arya's need for fellowship and desire to lead.

...

Frankly, Nymeria's queenly name and obvious leadership drive make me think that Arya is meant to be something other than an assassin or a "lone wolf" bad-ass.

Nor do I think that one needs a wolf to be a "true" Stark - after all, previous generations didn't. And Sansa was at her least Starkish while Lady was alive.

I think that our idea of "Stark honor" is largely formed by Ned and in smaller degree by Benjen. I strongly suspect that both Lord Rickard and Brandon Sr. may have failed by this standard. IMHO, there is no such beast, apart from general family traditions dear to high nobility. There is no inborn trait that makes Starks better than other people and they can turn towards evil as easily as the next person. Nor is bonding to an animal going to prevent it, as skin-changers can be vicious too (see Varamyr).

...

I like your idea about the meaning of the wolves. The correspondence between the wolves' "characters" and those of their bonded kids is striking. Lady was always easy to see, but your points about Arya's drive to lead a "pack" rings true, and I like the separation from Nymeria corresponding to Arya's isolation from "pack." I don't see the corresponding characteristics of Summer/Bran, Ghost/Jon, or Grey Wind/Robb, but I imagine some can be found.

Yet it seems to me that there is likely something more to the symbolism. You mention that Starks may not always have been so compulsively honorable - perhaps not until Ned. If so, that would actually support a connection between the wolves and Stark honor, since dire wolves hadn't been seen in hundreds of years, then suddenly each child raised by Ned gets one. ("Raised by Ned" avoids the awkwardness of not knowing Jon's actual parentage)

But even that doesn't seem sufficient. The wolves give the children protection and a big edge over others (e.g., Grey Wind and the Greatjon, and again in the Whispering Wood, Ghost with Jon against Qhorin and also when the kids accosted him in his cell). The protection and strength seems symbolic, and so what seems missing is a characteristic of each child that corresponds to the symbol. It should be something common to being raised by Ned, I guess, since all the children with dire wolves were raised by him. I suppose it could be as simple as the advantage provided by being recognized as a scion of the Stark noble house.

But if the wolf dies separately from their bonded person, as Lady, then the characteristics that correspond to the symbolic aspects of such wolf 'ought' to go with it. And because it took so long for Sansa's illusions and innocence to die after she lost Lady, I don't find that to be a satisfying explanation. I can think of two things with better temporal correspondence: first, as I mentioned, the fact that dissembling seriously tarnished her honor. A second item is less close in time: did Sansa lose some of the protection of House Stark around that time by becoming betrothed to Joffrey? What was the timing?

This might seem off topic, but understanding the symbolism of the wolves should help us understand Arya's Purpose, and the death of Lady may provide the best evidence (before/after comparison) to discern the meaning of the wolves as symbols.

I like your idea that Arya is temporarily estranged from the characteristics represented by her wolf. If so, then when she reunites with Nymeria she might (a) regain an ability to have and lead a pack, ( regain some protection or strength due to being a Stark scion (far from it doing her good, she is currently expected to relinquish her Stark identity, and in Westeros after the slaughter of her house it was a positive risk factor, hence the aliases), and perhaps [c] regain some Stark honor (if we consider her killing, all of which has taken place since she was separated from Nymeria, to be less than perfectly honorable - as many have suggested). So that actually suggests some specific plot features for Arya's return. I guess we'll see!

[cjfshaw]

Sansa fucking sucks and Arya's pretty much the shit. Most of the POVs at least try to do something. Sansa's only contribution is her name.

Kill her!

agreed, everything sansa touches dies, and everything arya touches just becomes badass

[Dornish]

agreed, everything sansa touches dies, and everything arya touches just becomes badass

To be fair, a lot of the things Arya touches die too.

[Sandor's_Mandy1]

I can't guess yet, exactly how large a role she'll play. I'm wondering if her blindness is temporary or permanent. What do you think about her blindness?

I think she *will* be reunited with Nymeria and big things will happen then... (at least I hope so)

The blindness is definitely temporary. If all acolytes stayed blind, they would never have any Faceless Men. Even if their sight came back on a magical level, they wouldn't be able to function wholly enough to do their jobs. IMO.

From the beginning of FFC she's become a bit of a psychopath. I hope she regains her humanity

For all we know that blind acolyte is still blind and still lights the candles by smell. He could be an example, not to be stupid and act on your own. We know Arya is stupid and doesn't take the hint so now she's blind too. Also even if this is part of the path to becoming Faceless man I'm not sure if they regain normal sight ever. They might have some kind of magical sight instead that replaces their lost sight.

I don't think she was made to be blind becaue she was stupid. I think it is quite the contrary; that she has attained a new "level" if you will, and therefore has been raised from serving girl/novice to acolyte. As of AFFC, Arya is just young and headstrong, like most girls her age.

Really? Sansa has a lot of room for development, IMO. She and Jaime are the two grey characters in the series. Sansa is written to be hated early on, but I feel she has a larger role to play as she matures and develops. I am very much looking forward to see what she does in the future.

I don't think that Sansa was written to be hated, per se. I think that she was written to be human. Like all of the characters. You either like her, don't like her, or just don't care. I think ultimately, Sansa is going to play a very major role in the series, and her role is going to probably surprise all of us.

[Lady Nastja]

The blindness is definitely temporary. If all acolytes stayed blind, they would never have any Faceless Men. Even if their sight came back on a magical level, they wouldn't be able to function wholly enough to do their jobs. IMO.

I don't think she was made to be blind becaue she was stupid. I think it is quite the contrary; that she has attained a new "level" if you will, and therefore has been raised from serving girl/novice to acolyte. As of AFFC, Arya is just young and headstrong, like most girls her age.

I don't think that Sansa was written to be hated, per se. I think that she was written to be human. Like all of the characters. You either like her, don't like her, or just don't care. I think ultimately, Sansa is going to play a very major role in the series, and her role is going to probably surprise all of us.

Very well said

[WardenOfTheNerds]

Very well said

After 5 years and a new book he will be rejoiced to hear that.

[Lady Nastja]

After 5 years and a new book he will be rejoiced to hear that.

He hasn't been online in God knows how long, he'll probably never see my point and I know that a book has come out since. Still, why not give credit where credit is due?

[Ice Stark]

I can't guess yet, exactly how large a role she'll play. I'm wondering if her blindness is temporary or permanent. What do you think about her blindness?

I think she *will* be reunited with Nymeria and big things will happen then... (at least I hope so)

And come the morning, when the night wolf left her and she opened her eyes, she saw a tallowcandle burning where no candle had been the night before, its uncertain flame swaying back and forthlike a whore at the Happy Port. She had never seen anything so beautiful. (arya in a DWD) she could already see in the DWD and we are later told that she saw the servants of the MFG as they came and the ways they used