Wheel of Time

[Swordfish]

I am really glad to see some of the great discussions going on here but........

..... let my rant begin.

I do not like or appreciate the verbal attacks made against people for the books they like.

I don't think there have been any of those.

[Gold Storm]

I think that it would be a good reread, when I was in the Navy I was up almost the entire night reading The Dragon Reborn. I cannot do it now, but I will reread some of the books. I say reread and enjoy the series.

[fionwe1987]

Read any WoT fansite encyclopedia. They'll be happy to tell you how each individual kingdom in Randland is a direct derivative of one or more real world cultures. From the knives everywhere, honor loving, duel happy punks down south, to the chronic mask wearers a bit further north, and around the same area we have the scandilous, latex wearing equivilent sluts of some other place. Tear is happy with its castes. Some more standard northern/western European fair in the mid-countries. With some of the northerners doing the whole marriage dot thing with some unusual hairstyles. For kingdoms that have the obvious amount of contact and proximity that these do, I'd say these differences are a bit much. You may disagree. But that doesn't change the fact that they were put in there because RJ wanted a little bit of everything and thought it'd be neat, not because it really makes any sense or serves a practical purpose.

Well, I live in India, a country about a tenth of the size of Westlands. There is variation not only in culture, dress and food, but in language as well. And the geographical barriers are as absent as in WoT. Am I living in an uinrealistic country?

Seriously, Artur Hawking isn't supposed to be King Arthur? Camelyn isn't Camelot? Eh, what the hell, I'll just copy and paste.

I'm talking about your comment that all these names are merely confined to an appendix. There are many names in WoT which borrow from various mythologies. There are also many with no appreciable source. Those with names borrowed from myth also have a story that vaguely resembles these mythic tales, in keeping with Jordan's premise that the WoT world is both in the distant past and the future of our own world, a source for our myths just as our world is a source for their myths.

There's a difference between not living up to the legend and not being remotely close to what was described. The fact is the forsaken are supposed to be uber evil and near all-powerful but they always get their asses handed to them by barely trained school kids whenever they have a confrontation. And their Machievellan scheming amounts to giving people headaches and talking shit at 'evil person conventions'. Of course Jordan inserted the 'Let the lord of chaos rule' plot device in book 6 so that we have an explanation for their lack of accomplishing anything.

Well again, you're ignoring that the Forsaken also had millions of channelers working under them to effect the plans they came up with. Also a lot of technology which is unavailable now.

And than there's the Aes Sedai who are as redundant in their personalities as they are in their names. All whiny, bitchy, and utterly incompetent. In fact that applies to near every woman in Randland, where every organization and culture, despite oceans and deserts that may separate them, establish their hierarchy by whoever is pushier and bitchier. And each random coven we meet will inevitably have a woman/girl whose pushier and bitchier than all the rest we've met before who will take control until we meet the next group. (Jordan follows a similar pattern with new peoples with strength in the magic and for a while was doing it with magical items)

All the AS are incompetant? Care to explain the incompetance of Cadsuane or Verin or Moiraine? Or Pevara or Merise? Care to tell me what's similar about these and other AS names?

And how do you miss that the various channeleing organizations have very different ways of establishing heirarchy? It doesn't matter how pushy an AS is, its only her strength that matters. For the Kin, its their age. For the Wise Ones, there is no set order of precedence. Command shifts based on the situation. The damane have no heirarchy at all. The Sea Folk care neither for strength nor age nor experience. The Windfinders are a part of a team with the ship's Sailmistress and Blademaster. Her position depends only on the position her group occupies in the Sea Folk heirarchy.

So where do you see evidence for the most pushy having precedence?

You dragged Martin into this (amongst others) on the specific point of world building as I pointed out in the previous post.

And in my reply I explained that that was not the case.

There are magic sucking places that generally don't house humans and items as well. That still doesn't explain the glaring oversight of a major, entirely magic free human city that never got mentioned for 8 books until it was needed as a plot device. But I wouldn't expect an RJ apologist to see the obvious.

Why should it be mentioned? It isn't like the Guardian's presence and function in Far Madding is known to many outside it. Save the Aes Sedai. And no character in touch with the Aes Sedai has before mentioned any plans to visit Far Madding. Why should this be mentioned? Was Jordan supposed to compile a list of special features of all cities that he will possibly use in the future? Shouldn't such information come about when some character actually has some need for it?

You mean willful stupidity on the part of the major characters as a means of keeping the dangling plot strands from unraveling? They've got the historic equivilent of the cell phone with the dream thing...hasn't helped them with that communication thing.

Not all of them can dream. Those who can, I'll have you know, do keep in touch and exchange information. That doesn't mean that they divulge everything they know, which is only natural. Or are you in the habit of making long distance cell phone calls to reveal everything you know, even stuff that is embarassing to you?

So far just about every limit and 'has never been done', 'can never been done' that RJ placed on the magic in his world has been broken. I'd say the limits are pretty much whatever RJ wants or wanted to pull out of his ass.

That is not what I meant. I'm talking about what a person can do to defeat evil. Can he do evil stuff that matches the Cark One himself to defeat the Dark One? What is the value of such a victory? Where do you draw the line? The concept has been explored with Shadar Logoth as well as Rand, who is ready to bulldoze all customs and wishes to dictate terms to people who have opinions different from him, just so he can smoothly defeat the Dark One.

The entire depth of economics in these books is Rand saying 'give the poor some love' in book 3 or 4. This is hardly an explored idea.

First off, the stagnation I was talking of was not economic, but social and scientific stagnation. By believing (and spreading the belief) that advanced societies are a thing of the past and that there are some things just not possible to retrieve, the Aes Sedai have contributed to a large scale apathy towards scietific and social development. Its not that ideas aren't there, but most nations in the past thousand years have failed to provide funding for research. Thus, until Rand opened his schools and allowed a load of wealth to pour into research, advancement had pretty much come to a standstill in the past thousand years. The Aes Sedai also constantly opposed any person who attempted to unify the Westlands like Hawkwing did, attempting to maintain a status quo between the nations, unless they themselves could be at the helm of a continent wide coalition.

Seriously, how are any of these ideas actually explored. Whose got blind faith? The children of the light? They might as well be twirling their mustaches and sneering menacingly. How are lame, cookie-cutter villains an exploration of anything? About the only thing you list that actually explores any sort of idea is the non-violent thing, and that's primarily through a single character who they'll probably cop out and turn into a darkfriend. Honestly, you're seeing depth that simply isn't there.

See, this is what I meant when I said you make baseless allegations. Aram was a Darkfriend? Where did you get that?

Again, you ignore the blind faith the Aiel place in their history, which leads to a devastating split in their numbers when they're faced with the truth that they were in fact pacifists in the past, who broke an oath of pacifism. You ignore the Whitecloaks blind faith in the evil of the Power, Elaida's blind (and moronic, self serving) faith that the Dragon will defeat the Dark One and fulfill all the prophesies even if she keeps him chained till the last minute. A badly done exploration of this theme was among the Amayar, whose blind belief in prophesy led them to mass suicide as well as the murder of their children. Elayne too, blindly believes that Min's viewing implies clearly that she will not die till her children are born. Gleefully, she enters into a dangerous situation, trusting to this viewing, and fails to notice that the viewing gives no immunity to her companions. End results, all her companions perish.

RJ (self-admittedly) cannot write women and so based most of the female characters off of his wife? And there's a difference between power disparity and gender roles vs. being a complete, childish moron towards everyone with a penis you see.

He said that there is a facet of his wife's personality in every major female character. Not what you said at all.

And if you're going by his quote that he didn't think he was great at writing women, then what about the other part of that statement where he says that many women have told him they were surprised he was not a woman since he wrote women characters so well?

Also, while there is a definite chauvinistic attitude shown by the women towards the men, they do not act bitchy all the time, or even most of it.

Lets explore the obvious flaws in this line of reasoning. Most people in Randland appear to be up on the current history, I assume most darkfriends are too. Satan had thousands if not millions of servants in the last war...he granted immortality to about a dozen that we know of. Does every darkfriend think they'll win the lottery or that the evil bad guy has had a generous change of heart?

The guy is evil. People generally do things bad things for selfish reasons. You generally won't find them doing evil for evil's sake. Sure there's a few wacko's in every bunch, but not this many.

And the immortality. Yeah, I'd do a few things for immortality. But if the guy whose offering it has expressed an intent to all but destroy the world, slaughter most of humanity, crush civilizations, and overrun just about everyplace with uglier orc stand-ins...why would I want to live forever in that? Some of these are men of power and influence, how are their ambitions served if the world they seek to have power in no longer exists? Any wealth serving evil got them rendered meaningless because there is no functioning economy, due to global societal collapse? What are all of these people lining up for? The wish-granter wants to end the world, what good will their immortality be than? No, their motivations are not the least bit plausible given the context. Just lazy writing.

Well, you've misunderstood the context, so lets see if I can explain.

The Dark Ones promise is that he'll grant immortality and power to his followers once he gets free. Even without getting free, he has managed immortality for his Chosen. What more can he achieve when free?

The Light preaches that the DO means to destroy the world completely when he's free. That is scarcely what he tells his followers. The only time we see him speak, he's promising rewards to Demandred if he gives good service, bemoans his inability to step out of time and reincarnate Rahvin who served well, and wraps it up by promising the post of Nae'blis for Demandred if he served well. Again, that was a post Ishamael held when he was the most efficient Forsaken in the Age of Legends.

As for a normal Darkfriend or a Black Sister, they hear the same stuff passed down the grapevine. Such promises have been made for centuries. They have not been kept since the Dark One is yet to be freed. The Darkfriends are doing evil for sekfish reasons, and we're actually yet to come across anyone who's doing evil simply for the sake of it.

No Jordan does that for us. He calls most of them darkfriends for christs sake. The guy has painted a more simplistic, unrealistic, black and white, good vs. evil world than Tolkien ever bothered to create.

As your Aram example amply proves, its you who's labelling every antagonist as a Darkfriend. Unless you can show me any evidence (there isn't any) that people like the Whitecloaks, Elaida, Sevanna, Aram, Masema, the Seanchan, etc are darkfriends, your point remains untrue.

What you said was essentially 'compare the magical systems'. Not 'elements of magic'. Nor 'hints of magic'. I'm simply pointing out that having a well constructed magical system is not in any way a proper barometer of the quality of the fantasy series, especially when magic plays such a minimal role in one series. It is in fact an incredibly dumb question and point for comparison.

So, if some random author has only hints of magic in his series, and then suddenly, with no warning, resolves a major plot issue with "Power spell 1" which destroys a whole army in one go, we cannot accuse him of misusing magic and lacking any system?

Magic may have a minimal role in asoiaf, but do you doubt that Martin has set limits to its abilities that he isn't going to violate? Thus, isn't the use of magic logiacally and systematically, so as to reduce the suspension of dusbelief expected, a criterion on which a fantasy novel can be judged?

Considering that the only other character trait most of them display is chronic bitchiness, I'd say yeah...that is mostly what the characters are all about.

So Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve (the major female characters of WoT) are all merely bitchy and bull their braids? So when Egwene feels sad that soldiers will die for her cause, she's being bitchy? When Nynaeve is devastated and furious that youngsters from her village were plucked away from their innocent lives and thrown into Aes Sedai machinations, and intends to sacrifice herself for them, she's being bitchy? Whenever Elayne displays her tendency to play the diplomat, she's being bitchy?

Basically, in all scenes these characters have been in, they've been bitchy?

Are you a moron? As you seem to be accusing everyone else of...have you read the books yourself? Faile gets captured somewhere around book 7 or 8. Its about 3 books later before she's rescued. They were set to storm the White Tower around book 7...a storyline that's still not resolved. The Camelyn nobles haven't been sitting around for a couple books (or their moving armies mentioned) and finally resolved in the last book?

Well, I think I already mentioned that I believe Perrin's storyline is overly bloated and needs to be truncated.

As for Elayne's stroyline, no the nobles have not simply been sitting around. The six houses that supported Dyelin have been down south preventing the Aes Sedai rebels from crossing into Andor. Those beseiging Caemplyn were, well besieging it, while shoring up their own support and also undermining Elayne by making deals with mercenaries working for her so that they'd betray her at the right time. Elayne was attempting to collect the soldiers of the various houses that supported her, dealing with the Black Tower, dealing with the Borderlanders, dealing with the possiblity of Black Sisters as well as a possible plant by her enemies. She was also somewhat busy being irritated about her pregnency, which was entirely unnecessary and irritating.

As for the Rebels, Egwene had no power to order an attack till book 8. The AS under her did not want an attack at all, and were content to prevaricate. In book ten, Egwene perfects her plan to seal off Tar Valon's harbours while also dealing with a possible alliance with the Black Tower as well as the possibility of a conspiracy in the Hall. Book 11 she spent undermining Elaida from within the Tower. The Rebels concluded their alliance with the Asha'man and also discovered the presence of a Forsaken among their midst. Not bloated at all.

In the end, the the last three books were slower than before. That scarcely means nothing happened, as you claimed.

And Catelyn is a more realistic and interesting female character than any Jordan has ever created on his finest day. She has aspects that are unlikeable, but they're also understandable. And she is distinctively different from all the other females in the books. As is just about every other female character Martin's written whose gotten any real page time. These are characters...not irritating placeholders who exist because the author isn't sure what to do with the much more interesting main characters. (again, the ones that he hasn't already neutered)

Well, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Sure as hell isn't fact.

No its pretty clear that RJ told but did not show. He told us that they were great, intelligent, insightful and manipulative powers that moved kingdoms by subtle scheming or sheer force of will. There was nothing that he showed us in their portrayal to suggest that any of them have ever been capable of such things. In fact every portrayal of Aes Sedai we suggests the opposite. But you're a fanboy/girl. You'll accept RJ's statements as truth and look for the little twig or two that might support your untenable position while missing the whole damned forest of obvious.

He told us nothing of the sort. From village farmboys, we got the impression that the Aes Sedai are invincible and omnipotent. Moiraine started correcting that impression in the first book itself, and her interactions with Anaiya and Siuan made it plain as day that the Tower was riddled with cracks and nowhere close to being as effective as reputed. Save Verin, Cadsuane, Siuan, Moiraine, and a few others he has consistently shown Aes Sedai to be incapable of functioning unless they can awe the opposition with their undeserved reputation. They've been shown to be hypocritical, unflexible and disconnected form the real world. Whenever they (exceptions mentioned before) confront a foe who isn't cowed down by their reputation, they're caught wrong footed.

If you disagree, back it up.

For someone who doesn't want to turn this into a Martin v. Jordan pissing contest, you sure seem to be bringing up asoiaf quite alot. Tywin was a competent villain. He had an enemy...he eliminated that enemy. Not a single forsaken has managed to do that to anyone relevant. And the forsaken were some of the most powerful channelers of their time, a time with much more powerful channelers than is common today, in a time where the power was much better understood, all of whom most likely received thorough educations in its capabilities and applications. They've also used them extensively in warfare, fighting one near apocalypse already. They are fighting one powerful, yet half trained boy. A few others with significant power but even less training (Aes Sedai are not learning from Age of Legends warlords, but merely the scraps they've been able to hold onto from that much more advanced age), and a divided tower mostly filled with much, MUCH weaker cannon fodder. And yet they've achieved almost nothing.

Well lets see... insingle combat, with the exception of Aginor, none have shown any incompetance.

Balthamel died fighing a Nyn, and took him down too.

Ishamael faced Callandor itself and succeeded for quite some time. Be'lal was very near to achieving his goal. He assumed that no modern AS would know balefire (and in general, he was right) and was caught off guard. Asmodean was admittedly outwitted in every way by Rand, but the credit is clearly Rand's for connecting up the dots and coming up with a plan. Lanfear was pretty successful and had Rand alsmost dead. Moiraine took her into the red doorway ter'angreal, something she could scarcely be expected to anticipate. Rahvin had almost finished Rand when Nynaeve surprised him. Sammael was doing well till Ishamael helped Rand. Semirhage got captured, but there are hints that it was planned, not unexpected...

In all the battles, we see that Rand was in no way successful till he got help.

As for competance in other fields... Asmodean created the Shaido as an antagonistic entity. Rahvin devastated Andor. Sammael and Be'lal both succeeded in taking over a major nation. Be'lal succeeded in trapping Rand and the girls. Semirhage destroyed the Seanchan empire. Graendal manipulated Sammael to his death, decimated Arad Doman, created a civil war in Sha'ra and is now possibly working with Moridin to bring the other forsaken in line. Mesaana successfully broke the Tower, and split the Tower faction further. She also managed to kidnap Rand and sour his relations with the AS permanently. Isha'mael... well he's done quite a lot. Destroyed Hawkwings empire, created the Seanchan, started the Trolloc Wars, created the Black Ajah, helped Rand kill Sammael, ensured that Moghedien, Cyndane, Graendal and Mesaana toed the line. Possibly placed Moghidien or Cyndane near Elayne with the aim of threatening Rand with her death when he needs to be at TG....

What's there to debate? You've asked for a worthless, irrelevant comparison. Spent several posts now whining about how we shouldn't bring Martin into this when you in fact made the comparison. Your defenses amount to inept rationalizations. Your posts display all the hallmarks of deluded fanboyism. You start almost every response with an accusation that the other person hasn't read the series (or not closely enough), and than bitch about a lack of politeness. I could say more, but I'd rather not have this post deleted.

How is me asking you to read the books in any way comparable to your calling me a moron, a fanboy, etc? When you make statements clearly contradicted by the text, what is wrong in me asking you to read it again?

What is there to debate is whether WoT is pure crap or a decent fantasy series. What is there to debate is whether its flaws outweigh its positives.

[cseresz]

How did Wheel of Time author Robert Jordan's recent death affect your personal and professional priorities? —Johnny Tex

I can't say it changed anything, but it saddened me immensely. I knew Jim — Jim Rigney was his real name — and he was a very kind and generous man. He gave me a blurb when my series was starting out, an endorsement for the cover that got me a lot of readers. And his own work really made my series possible. Jordan essentially broke the trilogy template that Tolkien helped set up. He showed us how to do a book that's bigger than a trilogy. I don't think my series would've been possible without The Wheel of Time being as successful as it was. I've always wanted to sprawl, and Jordan, to a great extent, made that possible with his series.

[DGN] In general, it seems newer fantasy is moving towards works of greater magnitude. Contemporary fantasy such as ‘The Wheel of Time' ,which is set to eclipse ten books, and other works are getting progressively longer. On your website, you pointed out that ‘A Game of Thrones' is longer than the ‘Lord of the Rings' trilogy in its entirety. Do you have any thoughts on this particular trend?

I think Jordan was the one who really broke that mould. His series was not a trilogy, (laughs) was a lot more than a trilogy, and suddenly the trilogy template that had ruled since Tolkien was put aside. For my own series, I intended a trilogy when I started out. The books were supposed to be ‘A Game of Thrones', ‘A Dance of Dragons', and ‘The Winds of Winter'. As happened with Lord of the Rings, as Tolkien said, ‘the tale grew with the telling'. At this point I've just resigned myself to telling the story. I'm going to tell the story beginning, middle and end, and all the twists and turns along the way. We'll see how many books it is. I'm not going to worry about trilogies and how many boxes we're gonna put it in.

He was also unfailingly generous towards other fantasists, always ready to offer them support and encouragement. My own ICE & FIRE series might never have found its audience without the cover quote that Jim was so kind as to provide, back when A GAME OF THRONES was first published. I will always be grateful to him for that.

Jim was a good and gracious man, a pleasure to share a platform or a pint with, and his contributions to modern fantasy were many. His huge, ambitious WHEEL OF TIME series helped to redefine the genre, and opened many doors for the writers who followed.

[fionwe1987]

I suppose the "element-based" approach Jordan took with the magic may have been fresh at the time, but when I actually started reading the series it was so worn out by countless video games and that Magic: The Gathering card game I played in middle school that it didn't interest me at all. And when so much time is devoted to explaining a system of natural laws that I already found boring? Blah. I did like the way it was described, what with the threads and weaving and such, but Jordan's imagery was never anything special or compelling so the system stayed mediocre.

More annoying was the (semi-) lack of internal consistency as the series wore on. Rarely was anything pulled straight from the man's ass, but the main characters (in the later books) seem to have a tendency to reinvent all the lost magics from the previous age. Makes all that "research" and "technology" and "infrastructure" seem like a waste of the previous society's time, when they could have just found some powerful teenage channelers to invent everything they needed for them. The most glaring example of this was Egwene rediscovering the process for making heartstone through some vaguely described, handwavey combination of magics.

A couple other gripes:

The dream world and the portal stones. How did they relate to the Source/Creator/Dark One and the magic system? They seemed more like gimmicks and cool ideas that Jordan thought of at some point while he was writing and threw in.

Angraels. Cheap way to get around the limit of how much power a person can channel (which has its own inconsistencies and lack of explanation). They were there from the beginning, sure, but there isn't any limit on how powerful they can be, which makes them nothing more than a collection of potential plot devices.

Those are my major issues.

Several points:

1) I agree that the elemental approach to magic has grown old. I'll say Jordan did a decent job with it, though.

2)About the reinvention: You must realize that the making of Cuendillar is not difficult at all. The basic need for making it is strength in Earth. Even weak women can make cuendillar, as long as they are strong in earth. The rarity of cuendillar cannot possibly have been because of the difficulty of making it, since Egwene describes it as a simple weave, and even Novices are doing it.

Very deliberately, we don't hear Moghdein telling Egwene the principle behind the making of Cuendillar. The obvious reason is that knowing that, we may be able to figure out exactly how the Seals are weakening. Doesn't mean what Moghedien said was useless.

3)The Portal Stones: We know they were not made of the One Power (at least not directly). They were made in the age before the age of Legends. All we know about them is that they give access to mirror worlds, worlds where events happen differently from the "real" world. They can be seen as simulations made by the Wheel, helping it to see the concequences of a set of actions.

4)The Dreamworld is a projection/mirror of this world and all the possiblities of this world. Hence the objects in Tel'aran'rhiod are not static. It is definitely connected to the power since places like the Blight and the Stedding, which oppose/stop the One Power, are not accessible via tel'aran'rhiod. Dreaming, which is a talent posessed by some who can enter tel'aran'rhiod, most probably has to do with the Dreamer accessing the mirror worlds, which are also reflected in the world of dreams. Thus, a Dreamer's visions has to do with possibilities.

5) There is no limit on how strong angreals can be, but there are limits to how many are around. Its doubtful if any new ones will be made. Also, using an angreal weakes a channeler faster.

[fionwe1987]

If people like Jordan, I do not think they are morons.

If they consider Jordan's work to be a masterpiece of writing, genius, brilliant, or they think he has a talent for characterization, plotting, or pacing...well, I don't consider them morons in that case so much as feel pity that most mental disorders are chronic.

??? I get accused of being a fanboi when I defend the series with actual discussion.

Isn't this far worse? I can understand you disliking/hating the series. I can understand defence of such dislike. But if you're the kind of person who says that everyone who disagrees with you is a moron, then, forgive me, you're sounding very much like the fans of Terry Goodkind.

Seriously: agree with me or you're a moron is worthy only of some poor TG website.

[Shryke]

I'm pretty sure someone said Guarneri = Senshou. Which would explain alot.

[Errant Bard]

I'm pretty sure someone said Guarneri = Senshou. Which would explain alot.

It's true and public, you can check yourself, it's in the display name history, in his profile options.

[me399]

Well, I am gonna try to take back this post of mine.

I have just got to the part in the book where the village has been attacked and Rand leaves the inn to start his journey with his friends and the chick and her guard Lan. (sorry to be so vague with the names but I dont have the book in front of me and I forget the spellings)

I like it so far but I just cant get over how Rand's father did not really put up too much of a stink about Rand taking off with these 2 strangers. I am sure things will become more clear later but it just seemed a little weird. I know there is allot of history that has not been reveled yet, just hinted at when Rands dad was fever stricken after the first attack. Maybe he knew that this would happen sooner or later. I guess I will find out.

Oh yeah, I dont want to get spoiled so if you are going to post an major spoilers please give a good warning.

[Shryke]

It's true and public, you can check yourself, it's in the display name history, in his profile options.

You sir, are a very useful man.

[Errant Bard]

Well, I am gonna try to take back this post of mine.

No thread is really yours once started, if you don't steer it firmly. In the case of a WoT thread, it's impossible to steer anyway.

I have just got to the part in the book where the village has been attacked and Rand leaves the inn to start his journey with his friends and the chick and her guard Lan. (sorry to be so vague with the names but I dont have the book in front of me and I forget the spellings)

Matt, Perrin, Egwene, Moiraine and Lan.

Oh yeah, I dont want to get spoiled so if you are going to post an major spoilers please give a good warning.

Just going to say this: For the first part (books 1-6) Nynaeve and the Aes Sedais are likely the deal breakers. If you can stand them long, or actually don't mind them or like them, you're good.

[fionwe1987]

Well, I am gonna try to take back this post of mine.

I have just got to the part in the book where the village has been attacked and Rand leaves the inn to start his journey with his friends and the chick and her guard Lan. (sorry to be so vague with the names but I dont have the book in front of me and I forget the spellings)

I like it so far but I just cant get over how Rand's father did not really put up too much of a stink about Rand taking off with these 2 strangers. I am sure things will become more clear later but it just seemed a little weird. I know there is allot of history that has not been reveled yet, just hinted at when Rands dad was fever stricken after the first attack. Maybe he knew that this would happen sooner or later. I guess I will find out.

Oh yeah, I dont want to get spoiled so if you are going to post an major spoilers please give a good warning.

There's no major revelation or spoiler related to this answer. Moiraine said straight out that Rand's presence here would cause danger for the village. She can't lie. Tam knows for sure now that the Trollocs are after Rand. And Moiraine and Lan are far better protection than anything Tam can offer. Hence his decision to let Rand go.

[EHK for Darwin]

Its clear that I don't like WoT. Its also obvious that I have a negative opinion of it as a work of literature and fantasy. I might have a problem with what I perceive to be stupid opinions, but I generally don't get too heated as long as they're well thought out. And often don't give a shit even when they're not. But what does get me are stupid arguments. And those I respond quite severely to.

But if you're the kind of person who says that everyone who disagrees with you is a moron, then, forgive me, you're sounding very much like the fans of Terry Goodkind.

Case in point; he never said, hinted, or implied anything of the sort. He just said that if someone believes Jordan is a masterpiece, than they probably have mental deficiencies. Nowhere does he suggest that he holds such opinions upon any other work in any other medium. There is nothing to suggest that this is his response to all or even a minute fraction of his disagreements. Simply this one, single situation that we know of. And if we remove WoT from the comment, haven't we all made this sort of statement or at least held (and left unexpressed) this opinion of others who praise works of absolute shit as if they were picasso's? If someone came in here saying that 300 was the greatest work of film-making art since Citizen Kane, won't you think they're a moron? Liking the film? Understandable. Calling it fun and even decently made? Why not. But a masterpiece? That's making an objective statement of fact, one that is absurd on its face, that simply can't be accepted. Its gone beyond like or dislike. And its also a statement that simply can't be fairly made about WoT. And anyone who does make it...well, its than perfectly fair to question their capacity in a number of areas.

Seriously, I see this ad hominem bullshit and idiotic misrepresentation or gross exaggeration of other peoples positions a thousand times a day on the fricken internet. (yeah, yeah, guilty of it myself with the fanboy shit. Sue me) Each time it makes me want to pull the rest of my hair out. Its crap like this that annoys the hell out of me. Most of your arguments are nonsensical crap and you tend to begin and end each one with some comment about the person's lack of reading comprehension. You've made inapplicable comparisons. (we covered that one)

You also argue from the perspective that the books are reality. I'm not saying that you think WoT is real, but you tend to begin things from the premise that decisions Jordan made in storytelling are legitimate and right , than look for points that might rationalize it. This is the hallmarks of fanboys everywhere. The inability to look at their favored piece of art with reasonable objectivity. For example:

2)About the reinvention: You must realize that the making of Cuendillar is not difficult at all. The basic need for making it is strength in Earth. Even weak women can make cuendillar, as long as they are strong in earth. The rarity of cuendillar cannot possibly have been because of the difficulty of making it, since Egwene describes it as a simple weave, and even Novices are doing it.

If it truly is not difficult at all, its that way not because it takes strength in the earth, but because Jordan decided to make it that way. You need to approach these things from an outsiders perspective to be taken seriously. Does this specific occurrence or plot twist make sense given our own understanding of how things work in the real world or with the context the author developed? Does the author's own context itself make sense? If you're not asking these questions in the analysis of a work, you've lost the ability to make an objective (reasonably) judgment and have drifted off into fandom territory.

Now what has been setup? This ability has been lost since the Age of Legends. Thousands of years of Aes Sedai have known of the existence of the material, that it is made from power, but have been unable to create it. Earth power is rare, but presumably a number of Aes Sedai throughout history have had it. And if you're correct in the fact that it doesn't take much power, presumably many at least had the ability to figure it out. None did. Fine, Egwene hasn't been indoctrinated into the rigid, unofficial White Tower rules of what can and can't be done and managed to rediscover some old tech.

But

SPOILER: spoilers

doesn't it stretch credibility a bit when this one little group of super-friends rediscovered not only this, but the lost ability to make ter'angreals, bested the undisputed dreammaster of the Age of Legends in her 'own domain' with little prior experience there (kind of like wiping out Freddy in the second scene of Nightmare on Elm Street), did the previously impossible by restoring power to those who had been neutered, rediscovered traveling. Or the fact that each one of them has some distinct, incredibly rare, or even unheard of talent that manages to be quite useful at various moments?

Now the fan would start talking about how previous healers or would be makers didn't have an A'dam to examine or test their theories with, that thousands of years of Aes Sedai never figured this out because the 'way things have always been done' enforced artificial limits on what they believed was and wasn't possible, or even reach out for the most overused plot device in the history of fantasy and say they're Ta'avern and this shit happens.

But someone looking objectively would simply note that yeah, its highly unrealistic, even to the point of absurd, that a couple of children only a few years into using the power at all have made countless discoveries lost for thousands of years that a White Tower filled with hundred year old 'experts' never came close to discovering. And that this just might be a sign of some fairly weak storytelling. Ditto for Rand's mini-Renaissance/industrial revolution apparently starting at his university. I'm sure Rand's not the first one to start a university/research facility within the last millennium, surely its stretching credibility just a bit for all of these discoveries to start popping out at once. Maybe you can explain one or two away, but all of them? Its a bit absurd that the entire world was stagnant for a thousand years than Rand and friends come all and new discoveries start popping out like bunnies. At least Rand has a plausible explanation for all the things he learned. For most of them, the girls really don't.

To sum it up, you don't appear to be able to separate story from storytelling in your discussion of WoT. Just because Jordan wrote it a certain way does not mean it makes sense or can't be an illogical stretch. And that is why its hard to take your comments seriously. (and the source of my fanboy comments) Add that atop the bad, misplaced arguments and misrepresentations of others arguments...and that's pretty much why i've reacted the way I did to your posts.

[Gerold Hightower]

I like it so far but I just cant get over how Rand's father did not really put up too much of a stink about Rand taking off with these 2 strangers. I am sure things will become more clear later but it just seemed a little weird. I know there is allot of history that has not been reveled yet, just hinted at when Rands dad was fever stricken after the first attack. Maybe he knew that this would happen sooner or later. I guess I will find out.

I don't remember exactly when all of this is revealed but from Tam al'Thor's fever dream it's obvious that Rand isn't really his son. If you have read the first two books you know who Rand is and that the Aes Sedai knew about his birth. The story how Tam found him and why he returned to the Two Rivers hasn't been told. That was to have been a novella on its own, which I'm afraid won't be written now. Moirane and Lan have spent the last 18 years looking for the Dragon Reborn and found him just ahead of Ba'alzamon. I'm not sure how much Tam knew or suspected but Moiraine's appearance and the attack of those Trollocs must have told him that something big must be going on.

[Fatuous]

Just as a general comment, and I know some Martin fans might disagree, but time between volumes is irrelevant as it pertains to the quality of the series. (AKA, it doesn't apply at all to questions of quality) Feast for Crows will still be Feast for Crows if it was released 1 year or 10 years after. I won't give an author a pass if he releases shit simply because he doesn't take long to do it. If we used that standard to measure anything, Turtledove would be the greatest author who ever lived. (As it stands now I could write the first two and last two pages of every one of his chapters, as they essentially repeat the same damned things. And I largely suspect that he hasn't written a book wholly on his own in years. Probably has a closet full of 'interns' doing it for him)

The reverse applies as well, I also won't give a work undue criticism for taking too long. I'll criticize the fact that it did take forever and perhaps give the author shit for it, but the work itself stands or falls on its own merits. And if anyone came to the series today, the fact that we waited 5 years for Feast would mean less than nothing to them.

I thought my point was Feast was not the book I was expecting at the end of Storm of Swords. The only reason I accepted it as ok was because Dance of Dragons was promised in 2006. But I am losing my patience with Feast.

I've got other things I can do to fill a wait for any book, no matter how long. The only question is how was my experience of actually reading the damned thing. If I'm sitting there wondering when the main cast is going to grow up, when the irritating side characters are gonna fall into a giant pit and die, and when plots that were started 2-3 books before and still haven't resolved or achieved any meaningful progress will actually get going...well, that's not a good sign.

Well, all we know about the Others since book one is that they're made of ice, control the dead and they might be evil. And that's from the Song of Fire and Ice Prologue to be exact. And who isn't just waiting for the Freys to "fall into a giant pit and die"? And Bran, Sansa and Arya certainly have "to grow up." That was the point of the 5 year gap as I understand it.

But are you talking about Song or the WoT? I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not.

I've got my worries with martin after Feast. But its one book out of 4, the first three arguably being the best bit of epic fantasy the genre has ever seen, so I don't really worry too much yet. Martin is a much more talented writer, with stronger prose and a finer, more nuanced grasp of characterization and storytelling. He'd literally have to try to fuck things up to have a run of ineptness as long and as bad as Jordan. So yes, I'll compare the near completed series to the half completed series because the worst of Martin is better than the best of Jordan. And I actually liked some of Jordan's earlier efforts.

Personal taste. I do agree that Martin's best is better than Jordan's but I feel that Jordan's best is better than lukewarm Martin.

If he was trying to avoid responsibility he quite simply wouldn't be there. But he is there and is engaging in a courtship ritual that's about as mature as hitting the girl on the playground, running away and coming back again. We're nearly a dozen books into this and every major character is still in whiny denial mode of the eventual role they'll have to play. I can only take so much childish brooding.

I think that it's a bit more complex than that but I'll try to explain some of my thinking about it. Or maybe I should just leave it as the conflict between predestined fate versus personal choice as sometimes you do appear knowlegable about series and sometimes it appears you don't care about the philosopical/psychological implications of the WoT base concept and how it works. It's funny that a character in a similar situation {John Connor of the Terminator series} is also described as whiny by people who don't care about the argument. It's a completely impossible situation outside of fantasy but I imagine that even you would become whiny if your choice about your fate was removed. Even if you become like a god, you would still resent it a little.

Rand's problem is that Jordan couldn't decide which lover to give them so in a bit of masturbatory geek wish fulfillment, he gave them all of them. Than he wrote all the women to inexplicably have no real problem with that fact. And the cooties? Once more back to the very immature character interactions that are a hallmark of this series from the very beginning (when it was understandable) to the end (where its absurd). Adult lovers expressing their hatred of eachother before one carrying the other off and spanking her, at which swoons for the next couple hundred pages. Each main protagonist insisting they know nothing about women and that their friends are so much more skilled with them. Mat's saga as a 'pet' where he continually shouted to himself that he wasn't a pet, but kind of grew into the role, and internally railed against it and so on and so forth. Males are all woolheads and the general lack of communication between the sexes...or anyone for that matter. Each group of women fighting to be pushier and bitchier than the next. There really is not a single adult relationship in the entire series. None of them have once dealt with relationships in a mature, realistic manner.

Polygamy in royal families is not unheard of and it's a main part of Song's plot so maybe you just ease off that. Mat's life as a skirtchaser turns back on him when he goes to a country where women have the predator roles. But can you explain your adult lovers example as I'm not sure who they are. Sounds a bit like Byrne and Siuan but they're not lovers.

You know, I could just explain this away as the typical evolution of an agricultural society, where the farmers not only breed cattle and sheep but children as well, combined with a central power base built around women with unique powers that puts them above normal people and at the same time seperates them from men but I don't think you would accept that. "Pushier and bitchier". Yes, that would happen. Especially when the men suddenly gain a stronger version of the same power.

And its been more than heavily hinted that he'll be revived somehow. And even if he does die, its not like he's sacrificing anything. A: Give up and let the world be conquered by satan, all your friends and loved ones destroyed, and eventually you get killed too. B: Fight and probably die, but most of what you cherish will probably survive if you win. Gee, let me think.

No, Rand hasn't been informed that he'll be revived . "Live and Die and Live once more a part of once was." He's already done that as Lews Therin so it's hardly a comfort. And Ishamael offered Rand eternal life if he choose to join the Dark One so Rand actually choose to die.

I know Perrin just wants to be a blacksmith. He's whined about it every other page for 5 or so books now. Mat the same. And frankly, its damned irritating. 'We can't live our simple, anonymous lives because fate has greater things in store for us'...boo fricken hoo!! Seriously, after the first couple years...you probably get over that and start to accept reality. But Mat still pretends that he doesn't speak the old tongue or have generals whispering in his ear. Rand doesn't explain anything to anyone even though it could smooth a number of misunderstandings and potentially lead to some useful discoveries. And Perrin has spent the last few books wife obsessed, so he's been less than useless himself. For once I want a damned fantasy protagonist that says "Savior of the world and ruler of nations? that's kinda cool" or at the very least "Ya know, I didn't like being a hick farmboy all that much, this is MUCH better!"

I thought that Rand, Mat and Perrin who reached that conclusion by the end of book 11 but what do I know?

No, it would have simply meant that Jordan structure the story differently to ensure no 5 book dry spells bereft of meaningful progress. The fact is there are very few interesting things left in his world. Rand is sort of interesting, but he's been almost chronically absent from most of the last several books. The Black Tower is interesting, but it hasn't had more than a few pages devoted to it since its inception. Jordan has been deathly afraid of showing these things for whatever reason and instead fills pages with redundant, irrelevant Aes Sedai/Knitters/Sea-bitches/Wisewomen pursuing plots that we'd long since forgotten about and never cared about in the first place.

Rand was absent from the last two because of what he did in book 9. The Black Tower is central to one of Jordan's major Forsaken plot points, to dwell on it would be to give away a really good trap for Rand. All of those Women power circles are being forced to come to terms with an Asha'man world which I find interesting. If you don't, that's understandable.

But if it was all about getting the characters in the right place to launch the big finale, and if we accept that their current placement is 'the right place', our only question is could Jordan have gotten the characters to where they are in less time? And the answer is abso-fricken-lutely. Faile was a fricken rescue. That could have been completed the book after it happened. There has not been enough relevant progress with the White Tower storming to justify a second book, that could have been completed as well. Cutting a chunk of Mat's courtship? Please god can we?!! And the Camylan noble thing...did anyone still realize that was going on pre-bath? Quickly and easily finished. And Rand has cleansed the taint...only remotely relevant thing he's done since about book 7.

I agree about the Caemlyn stuff but it was a "no dragonsworn/darkfriend" land and central to the world as it's in the center so it's ok if bloated, the Faile "rescue" was more about uniting several lands and factions than saving one woman and Mat's courtship was about 4 other countries worth of conquering for the Lord Dragon with marrying just one woman.

And the White Tower is a part of the Forsaken plotline {the only one left that the Forsaken know about anyway} so "no" to that one as well. The Forsaken are a lot more involved in the series than you think.

All of this shit, all of it could have been rapped up with characters in place by book 8 or 9. Easily.

"No" again. Book 7 was just setting up Moridin and Lews Therin, the Black Tower and Taim, the broken White Tower, the Seanchan invasion, the Borderland nations, Lan and Nynaeve, Egwene and the rebels so there is no way that this all could be in place in two additional books.

[Exa Inova]

Too bad all your post are so long (both of you) but I enjoy them even though we had this discussion in other threads.

To take sides: I agree with EHK. What started as a enjoyable read has turned into a load of crap with Crossroad of Twilight as its summit.

I know, some still enjoy it but even they should have to admit that at the pace RJ told his story no way all the loose plotlines could be solved in just 2 books.

RJ came to the same conclusion and in book 11 plotlines came to conclusion in record pace, a great deal of them off stage.

Now RJ is dead and whoever's gonna finish this thing........good luck keeping the book under 17.000 pages.

[EHK for Darwin]

Well, all we know about the Others since book one is that they're made of ice, control the dead and they might be evil. And that's from the Song of Fire and Ice Prologue to be exact. And who isn't just waiting for the Freys to "fall into a giant pit and die"? And Bran, Sansa and Arya certainly have "to grow up." That was the point of the 5 year gap as I understand it.

But are you talking about Song or the WoT? I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not.

The others have yet to be developed, but the story thus far isn't really about them. And what it has been about has been extremely entertaining, intricately woven, and well written with a cast of complex and compelling characters...so I'm giving him a pass on this one. Honestly who wins the throne of Westeros and how they win it will probably always be a more interesting story for me than the ancient icy zombies up north. Mankind v. Others seems more your standard generic fantasy fare...you can have it.

And you seem to be missing the point on the 'wanting the characters to die' part. I want them offed not because they've done despicable things, but because they're irritating, poorly written characters. Now the old Frey is quite simply an awesome character. One that you absolutely love to hate. Those kinds of characters are priceless. Honestly, I'm secretly pulling for him to outlive every major character in the series sans Littlefinger. Those that need to die? Anyone with tits in Jordan's world....and most of the characters without em too.

And what amount of growing up do Bran, Sansa and Arya need to do? Bran at 5-6 in the beginning of the first book (or whatever age) already had more maturity and insight than any of the WoT main cast at book 10 and beyond. Arya is progressing into a sweet little sociopath. And Sansa's naive fantasy world has been shattered and she's well on her way to becoming LF's manipulative apprentice. Granted I'm not really a fan of child characters in books and I'd prefer them aged a bit, but their current age isn't too much of a distraction and they're by no means irritating. And yeah, I was very much knocking WoT. I thought that much was obvious.

It's a completely impossible situation outside of fantasy but I imagine that even you would become whiny if your choice about your fate was removed.

Their basic reaction might be understandable (of course how they express it is irritating and childish, but that's besides the point), but noone wants to read that shit for thousands of pages on end. And most people would eventually get over it and accept it, probably a great deal quicker. That said, its also irritating because its the continuation of yet another modern fantasy cliche. Hell, its not even a purely fantasy one anymore. The random peasant who came from nothing suddenly gets great power thrust upon him but really doesn't want it. For some unexplained reason they must never want the power. They're somehow morally deficient if they do. And this has led to countless protagonists in films and books that I want bash in the head with a baseball bat. Is it a crime for a main character to have a bit of ambition? Maybe in real life the person who would shrug off power is a rare commodity, but in fiction they're a dime a fricken dozen. Get rid of them. Angst is not entertaining.

Polygamy in royal families is not unheard of and it's a main part of Song's plot so maybe you just ease off that.

In some historical royal families. Not these royal families. And none of the girls (besides maybe Avienda) come from a culture where sharing the boytoy is practiced or accepted. That they would simply accept sharing the husband and remain good friends is contrary to the culture and family life they were brought up in. And the ease with which they accept it is absurd given that context. And the spanking example was in fact Suian and Byrne.

And Ishamael offered Rand eternal life if he choose to join the Dark One so Rand actually choose to die.

The serpent on the vine says 'serve me, help me destroy the world, and I'll grant you eternal life!'...please, that's not a choice.

I thought that Rand, Mat and Perrin who reached that conclusion by the end of book 11 but what do I know?

Acceptance by BOOK ELEVEN!??? You see no inherent problem with that?

Rand was absent from the last two because of what he did in book 9.

This is the inability to separate story from storytelling that I was talking about in my previous post. There were no stone tablets that said Jordan's next book had to tell the tale of everything that happened right before, during, and immediately after the cleansing. There was no pressing need to tell us how the bright lights in the sky affected every random character in every far corner of the world. It was a choice by the author and a rather poor one. For a series continually bashed for lack of plot progression, criticized for the minimal amount of time that actually elapses during each subsequent book...to actually go backwards in time for that next book...talk about the ultimate slap in the face to fans everywhere.

The Black Tower is central to one of Jordan's major Forsaken plot points, to dwell on it would be to give away a really good trap for Rand.

A trap that could have been sprung a couple books ago. Or if not, since most of us have a pretty good general idea of what's gonna happen with the tower, why not actually show us how it gets built up and how it develops. But no...storylines and characters that might actually be interesting and/or advance the overall plot are off-limits beyond a page or two here and there.

I agree about the Caemlyn stuff but it was a "no dragonsworn/darkfriend" land and central to the world as it's in the center so it's ok if bloated, the Faile "rescue" was more about uniting several lands and factions than saving one woman and Mat's courtship was about 4 other countries worth of conquering for the Lord Dragon with marrying just one woman.

None of this means that it couldn't all be concluded in a book. Stop Perrin's constant muttering of Faile every other sentence and quit telling us what kind of perfume Berelin is wearing. Don't stop for grain and weavels. Get in contact with the 'helper rescuers' a few pages in instead of 2 books later, get a plan and execute by books end. Don't discuss the pagentry and politics of the nobles for 100 pages in a bath. Say the nobles are here, have the war, spend the last 10 pages or so with the aftermath. And if you can't get a love story going in 500 pages...you're really a pretty worthless author. And who gives a shit if the White Tower deals with the forsaken? Why does that mean it should have almost no measurable progress for 4 whole books now? You mean Egwene couldn't be captured and pull all of her 'I'm the real Ammy!' crap 1 book after her army entered the portal?

This isn't hard. Simply cut out the irrelevant, extraneous characters and side plots. The redundant meetings and interactions we've read about a thousand times already. And get the damned story moving.

Seriously, alot of MUCH better authors have put a hell of alot more content in 3 books. Some of them even 1. And your telling me this shit can't be done in 4 or 5? What nonsense.

[diabloblanco18]

Several points:

1) I agree that the elemental approach to magic has grown old. I'll say Jordan did a decent job with it, though.

2)About the reinvention: You must realize that the making of Cuendillar is not difficult at all. The basic need for making it is strength in Earth. Even weak women can make cuendillar, as long as they are strong in earth. The rarity of cuendillar cannot possibly have been because of the difficulty of making it, since Egwene describes it as a simple weave, and even Novices are doing it.

Very deliberately, we don't hear Moghdein telling Egwene the principle behind the making of Cuendillar. The obvious reason is that knowing that, we may be able to figure out exactly how the Seals are weakening. Doesn't mean what Moghedien said was useless.

3)The Portal Stones: We know they were not made of the One Power (at least not directly). They were made in the age before the age of Legends. All we know about them is that they give access to mirror worlds, worlds where events happen differently from the "real" world. They can be seen as simulations made by the Wheel, helping it to see the concequences of a set of actions.

4)The Dreamworld is a projection/mirror of this world and all the possiblities of this world. Hence the objects in Tel'aran'rhiod are not static. It is definitely connected to the power since places like the Blight and the Stedding, which oppose/stop the One Power, are not accessible via tel'aran'rhiod. Dreaming, which is a talent posessed by some who can enter tel'aran'rhiod, most probably has to do with the Dreamer accessing the mirror worlds, which are also reflected in the world of dreams. Thus, a Dreamer's visions has to do with possibilities.

5) There is no limit on how strong angreals can be, but there are limits to how many are around. Its doubtful if any new ones will be made. Also, using an angreal weakes a channeler faster.

Not exactly what I was talking about. I know Jordan's explanations for all of these things, but my problem with them is that they aren't really explained in relation to his magic system. How does an elemental system like his necessitate the existence of alternate worlds of reflection and possibility? What is the relationship between magic and the world, that it gives rise to these reflections? If something is outside the normal magic, what does that mean, what other repercussions might it have? Beyond the basics, though, that's getting very metaphysical, and I don't think I ever expected philosophy from him.

In terms of the rediscoveries, the idea that making a nearly indestructible substance is "easy, anyone can do it" is a bit silly. Particularly when that substance's rarity and amazing strength (as viewed by the characters) makes it just a bit creepy when the seals shatter.

Also, there isn't any limit to how many angraels are around. It's never been stated that "there were exactly this many made," so a new one can be pulled from the proverbial author's ass whenever. And didn't the characters figure out how to make new ones?

[Guarneri]

Seriously, alot of MUCH better authors have put a hell of alot more content in 3 books. Some of them even 1. And your telling me this shit can't be done in 4 or 5? What nonsense.

This is one of my main issues with WoT: Jordan apparently was never introduced to the concept of streamlining. Every time I read WoT I get the feeling that either he didn't give a fuck about his books, and just wrote whatever crap came into his head so he could get them over with, not bothering to rewrite and revise as many times and as long as it took to get the highest level of perfection he could achieve.....OR he was simply incapable as a writer of doing these things, and it didn't stem from lack of motivation. I've seen scores of amateur writers whose technique and skills are vastly superior to Jordan, so when people are claiming his work to be a masterwork of fantasy, I really begin to wonder if their craddle was rocked next to a wall when they were babies. The amount of plot actually covered in a WoT book is simply pathetic. Even the first three books, supposedly when he was in his prime, could've been told in one novel if he'd had even an ounce of skill.

aFfC is the weakest SoIF novel, sure, but aFfC had more content and plot occuring in it than two of Jordan's novels at the very least. Not to mention the vastly superior workmanship.

Honestly, people, if you love WoT I understand. Many people read books or watch movies as a kid, and they love it from then on because of the place it holds in their memory. Lots of adults enjoy Disney movies because they enjoyed them as kids, and then get to enjoy the movies with their own kids. Art can have sentimental value, obviously. Or maybe you read it as an adult and enjoyed the escape into another world. I'm glad you enjoy it. But for the love of God do not call it a brilliant work of art. What I always find amusing is how people who often claim Eragon to be genius, or Terry Goodkind to be intelligent, is that the people making these claims are very casual readers, or readers who have put no thought, analysis, or depth into the techniques and art form of literature. If you don't even know what characterization means, and its quantities, qualities, factors, compositions, etc, I don't think you should be offering an opinion on quality of literature, for example. Offer your opinion that you enjoy it, sure, but unless you know how to objectively critique an artwork please do not call the childish pieces of shit you like to be genius. It's almost as bad as idiotic teenagers who only listen to Britney Spears, deciding to try and make an informed opinion on the talents and failings of Prokofiev.

[Shryke]

The others have yet to be developed, but the story thus far isn't really about them. And what it has been about has been extremely entertaining, intricately woven, and well written with a cast of complex and compelling characters...so I'm giving him a pass on this one. Honestly who wins the throne of Westeros and how they win it will probably always be a more interesting story for me than the ancient icy zombies up north. Mankind v. Others seems more your standard generic fantasy fare...you can have it.

Honestly, the more I think about ASOIAF, the more I think many people may end up disappointed with the series. Considering Mankind vs The Others is in many ways the points of the whole thing.

And for clarity, The Dark One's plan isn't to destroy the world, it's to remake it. He wants to be God essentially. Living forever as a dominant person in the Dark Ones remade world is your reward.