Jaime

[Dacey]

Hmm. Well, just as a data point, I can throw in that my feelings on Jaime did a very abrupt 180, so I can pinpoint the exact moment I started liking him - it's when he leaps down into the bear pit to defend Brienne. And the reason that got me was because it's such a ridiculous, over-the-top action-movie-hero thing to do, exactly the kind of thing that usually never happens in ASoIaF, or fails when it does happen. Oberyn Martell goes all Inigo Montoya on the Mountain, he gets his skull crushed. Ned Stark makes a heroic sacrifice of his own reputation and integrity, he gets his head cut off anyway. Jaime leaps in to defend a maiden against an angry bear, sick and crippled and weaponless, and he pulls it off and it's believable, because he's Jaime-effin'-Lannister. I emphasize that the moment wouldn't have hit me so hard in another book series, it struck me specifically because these kinds of moments are rare in ASoIaF, so they seem earned. And then too, ASoS is such a grim book, I remember the little moments of hope and heroism and justice that much more fondly. (It's not an accident that "A dragon is not a slave" and "How many, how many, how many, how many, how many? Is there gold in the village?" are two of my other favorite moments in the series.)

And then this moment of fearless, spontaneous self-sacrifice is coming from the guy who threw a small child off a tower, someone who had pretty much given up on the whole idea of trying to be a good person, and he's acting on behalf of someone he's claimed to not even like, even in his own thoughts. I mean, if Ned had done something like this, I'd get it, I'd know he was acting on a belief in abstract principles like honor and justice, and he probably wasn't expecting to survive and was OK with that because he values his principles more. But when the Kingslayer does it, you gotta wonder what's up. The idea of a character who's basically given up on morality but finds himself doing stupidly heroic things against his own "better judgment" is a really interesting contradiction - it's pretty similar to why a lot of people like Sandor, and in Sandor's case we don't even get the benefit of seeing his own POV.

Anyway, I don't know if other people had such an immediate dramatic turnaround in how they viewed Jaime, I suspect for most people it was more gradual.

[Ender]

I would say there is a significant portion of the readership on this board sophisticated enough to separate liking a character as a person from liking to read about that character.

I enjoy reading Jaime's chapters. What I tend to crave in Martin's writing is depth of character and their capacity to change/evolve as they face conflicts within the story. To be sure, some of the effect is the result of knowledge made known to us when we finally got a Jaime PoV, but to say that alone is the sole reason for altering how one viewed him would be wrong IMO. Cersei's PoV in AFfC for example did little to endear her to readers IMO, even when we get insight into how her dreams of marrying Rhaegar were dashed or how Robert abused her.

Jaime is interesting because part of him desperately wants to reclaim the innocence of his youth. The way he speaks of Arthur Dayne, it is apparent that a part of him aspires to be Ser Arthur. He would try to make ammends for his past dishonor--by aiding Brienne in his desire to keep his oath to Cat, his desire to restore the KG to glory, etc.--yet he also knows that his name is forever tainted by deeds already done. It is not yet clear that he will succeed in coping with the fact that he will always be the Kingslayer (and would-be murderer of a child and whatever other dishonors he is guilty of), regardless of what deeds of honor he does in the future, and I think wanting to see how that plays out is one of the great appeals of his character. The issue is further complicated by his desire for his sister. Their incest is another sort of dishonor, and yet love is not something as easily set aside, and certainly not in the case of a couple so close as Jaime and Cersei are/were. Do his honorable deeds to come mean anything if he continues the dishonor of having a romantic relationship with his sister (and the queen) while being a sworn brother of the KG--in his eyes...or in ours?

A person wanting to do what's right, and yet being held hostage by his or her desires and past has a "real" feel to it that readers can identify with regardless of their gender. Certainly moreso than a character like Theon driven by his own desire for glory and how much ass that glory could win him, and more genuinely likable characters like Jon or Arya as well.

[higgins]

I would say there is a significant portion of the readership on this board sophisticated enough to separate liking a character as a person from liking to read about that character.

Ideed. Sansa was one of the most boring characters when in King's Landing, but I LOVED her chapters as they were dripping of VERY interesting pieces of information.

And then this moment of fearless, spontaneous self-sacrifice is coming from the guy who threw a small child off a tower, someone who had pretty much given up on the whole idea of trying to be a good person, and he's acting on behalf of someone he's claimed to not even like, even in his own thoughts.

Where do you take that he'd given up the idea of being a good person? Was he trying improve and be a good person when he brought up the trebuchet while talking to Edmure on one of the last chapters in AFFC? I don't think he's changed at all. It rather seems to me that people who think he's changed or on his way to redemption went "Nooooo!!" when he threw out Bran from the window and never gave him a chance (very much like Ned didn't when he saw Jaime sitting on the throne).

In my eyes, it was Cersei who changed when she got intoxicated with the idea of finally being on the position of power. Has anyone else claimed that Jaime has changed? I don't recall anybody else who have claimed that, and I guess we all know how clear Cersei's vision is.

[sToNED_CAT]

But there is two things i can never forgive him for:

1. throwing bran off. I wouldn't have cared if it was some adult, even one i liked. But throwing a child off a tower is definetly unforgivable in my book. And i dun even like Bran.

2. Lying to Tyrion about Tysha. But this one is mainly because how things turned out for Tysha.

What about killing Ned's men in AGoT just to teach Stark a lesson? That was most disgusting thing he did IMO - even throwing Bran out of window was done just to protect himself and Cersei (Robert would kill them had Bran said a word about them sexin).

[Alwyn]

Well, I've always been a sucker for the bad boys, so I really can't argue with you there. There's something about a guy who is assertive and enough of a smartass jerk to take control but who you think you can change that just makes me weak in the knees, I can't help it. It's the sort of guys I fall for in life and in fiction

[Daemrion]

What about killing Ned's men in AGoT just to teach Stark a lesson? That was most disgusting thing he did IMO - even throwing Bran out of window was done just to protect himself and Cersei (Robert would kill them had Bran said a word about them sexin).

Ned did own up to kidnapping Tyrion.

[Arbor Gold]

I thought this was a Jaime L. vanity thread.

[ShadezofDys]

I think one of the major problems in thinking about Jamie is our perception and our values. In ASoIaF there's no "all men are created equal" type of thought process, there are nobles and there are commoners, there is your family and there is not your family.

The reason I didn't really like Jamie at the beginning of the series is because he was against Ned and I liked Ned a lot. Further, Jamie was pretty justified in what he did, since Tyrion was completely innocent and the reason he was taken by Catelyn was because Littlefinger lied.

Anyhow, I think that Ender put it very well.

[Jon Targaryen]

What about killing Ned's men in AGoT just to teach Stark a lesson? That was most disgusting thing he did IMO - even throwing Bran out of window was done just to protect himself and Cersei (Robert would kill them had Bran said a word about them sexin).

It was in response to Catelyn taking Tyrion. However, killing Ned's men in cold blood was just petty revenge.

[A wilding]

And I think that I would feel a little more sympathy for Jaime here, if he hadn't himself been responsible for the original attempted murder of Bran that set the whole sequence of events in motion.

[ShadezofDys]

It was in response to Catelyn taking Tyrion. However, killing Ned's men in cold blood was just petty revenge.

And a way of showing Ned, and any other great lord who cared to take notice, that there's a HEAVY price for f*ing with the Lannisters.

Which is how the nobility in Westeros stays the nobility and doesn't do like the French in the 1790's.

Black and white this world is not.

[Jon Targaryen]

And a way of showing Ned, and any other great lord who cared to take notice, that there's a HEAVY price for f*ing with the Lannisters.

Which is how the nobility in Westeros stays the nobility and doesn't do like the French in the 1790's.

Black and white this world is not.

In terms of realpolitik, sure, it's a move. But we're discussing Jaime's character here not his got-playing ability, right? Besides, I doubt Jaime was thinking of furthering the interests of House Lannister. As I said, petty revenge.

[Jon Targaryen]

I can't wait to see where things go and how he responds to Cercei's letter.

I think we already know. His constant obsession with her sleeping with other people, the confirmation by Lancel, and the finality of his, "No. Place this in the fire" has me believing Cersei will get no help from Jaime.

I realize it could be open to interpretation by others though.

[JoannaL]

I think we already know. His constant obsession with her sleeping with other people, the confirmation by Lancel, and the finality of his, "No. Place this in the fire" has me believing Cersei will get no help from Jaime.

I realize it could be open to interpretation by others though.

He could have thrown the letter into the fire because the letter was to dangerous to keep (three ' I love you' from Cersei could make some casual reader make think more about the incest accusation).

[Zoë Sumra]

The thing about the incident with burning the letter - brother or no brother, he's Kingsguard and she's the Queen Dowager. He has a responsibility to protect and obey her. I wonder if not helping her will get him into as much hot water as helping her.

[Gaston de Foix]

The thing about the incident with burning the letter - brother or no brother, he's Kingsguard and she's the Queen Dowager. He has a responsibility to protect and obey her. I wonder if not helping her will get him into as much hot water as helping her.

The thing about every Lannister in the book is that while they scrupulously pay their debts, they do so at a time, place and manner of their choosing. I agree with you JT that Jaime is haunted by Cersei's adultery, but that doesn't mean that he's going to let Tommen's mother by tried and executed by the Holy Sparrow, and King's Landing and the realm dissolve into a Lannister-Tyrell clash. I see the burning of the letter on Jaime's part as a deliberate ambiguity on GRRM's part, we get the answer from his character changes after the maiming. Hopefully it's responsibility for the realm and his bastard son.

If I were Jaime, I would ask myself, WWTD?

[Jon Targaryen]

The thing about the incident with burning the letter - brother or no brother, he's Kingsguard and she's the Queen Dowager. He has a responsibility to protect and obey her. I wonder if not helping her will get him into as much hot water as helping her.

This is Jaime, though. He isn't one to blindly follow his oaths.

[ShadezofDys]

In terms of realpolitik, sure, it's a move. But we're discussing Jaime's character here not his got-playing ability, right? Besides, I doubt Jaime was thinking of furthering the interests of House Lannister. As I said, petty revenge.

Well, I think part of Jamie's character is a pretty in depth knowledge of how the Westeros system of government works. He's seen the decrees of a mad King, he's seen the decrees of an apathetic King, he's seen life at court for the past. . . 15 years? 20 years?

I think he knows exactly how to stay in power and that's by having everyone fear to cross you. If he hadn't had his "petty revenge" then it's pretty easy to see how people might view messing with the Lannisters as less risky. As it stands, people know very well what you get when you mess with the Lion. (or, as it stood)

The more I think about Jamie the more I think he's a world weary ex-idealist. I don't get the impression that he was a cruel youth, nor that he was more interested in personaly glory than in honor. I get the impression that Jamie is the "fallen hero" of the saga and that the fall was caused by his recognition of just how terrible a world it is that he lives in.

Bah, I'm going to stop for now because I haven't been able to write a thought well today. Hopefully I'll be able to articulate better later on.

[ShadezofDys]

This is Jaime, though. He isn't one to blindly follow his oaths.

Thought Jaime dying on Lancel's sword would be pretty f*in sweet.

[Zoë Sumra]

Given Lancel's reaction to him in AFFC, it's more likely to be the other way round. Way to make the Warrior's Sons lose a trial by combat; stick up someone who has a psychological problem with the defending Kingsguard.

Ooh. Kevan's reaction if Jaime kills Lancel in a trial by combat...