Ser Barristan's secrets

[A Time for Wolves]

I also have never seen why three of the KG should guard Rhaegar's mistress and bastard - the Lord Commander of the KG, that too - instead of ensuring that Aerys doesn't get killed by a traitor in King's Landing, or protecting the Queen and her small children on Dragonstone, or Rhaegar as he goes into battle. I somehow feel Barristan wouldn't know why Whent, Hightower and Dayne were there though - after all, I'm quite sure Jaime doesn't know, and the other white knights would probably have trusted Jaime as he was their Sworn Brother, just like Barristan was.

[Gold Storm]

Thats why I was thinking that there is more to this story. The KG should have been at the Trident, KL, Dragonstone, or the siege at Storm's End. The fact that they were at the ToJ means that they were sent there by somebody high up like Rhaegar. I think that Aerys had no idea that three of his best blade were guarding Rhaegar's girl and not fighting for him.

[Tim of Starfall]

this brings up a new theory...

If jaime would look at the white book more, would he be able to figure something out about this?

That is the main reason i believe that Barristan knows more. He has figured it out when he would be updating the white book after the war. I doubt the truth is in the White book, but Selmy must have wondered what Hightower, Whent and Dayne were doing so far south and NOT with Aerys/Trident/Dragonstone.

The death of those three must be known more public then just Ned/Howland Reed.

But would Jaime be smart enough if he would read the white book to put more together about those three?

[Prince of the North]

That's an interesting thought! At the very least, info in the White Book could possibly provide more motivation to someone investigating the circumstances of Hightower's, Whent's, and Dayne's deaths.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

ToS:

I'd bet that there were a lot of people who learned that the three Kingsguard were not in Dragonstone, or at the Trident, or with Aerys at King's Landing. Robert, for example, should have been aware of that. Most other prominent people who were taking an interest in how the war was proceeding would have known, including Jon Arryn, Tywin Lannister, Maester Pycelle, etc., etc. Based on how the Battle of the Blackwater went, it certainly seems that when prominent people are taken captive or executed, lots of people find out about it afterwards. How many people in the riverlands knew that Jaime was in the dungeons of Riverrun?

So presumably there would have been some kind of story to explain where and how the three died. It could be as simple as, the three died fighting the Stark army in the south. Maybe it's been embellished, so that the three allegedly attempted to ambush and capture Ned Stark in order to win some kind of conscessions regarding the treatment of Viserys and Aerys's queen, or in the course of some other last-ditch effort to serve their king. Whatever the story is, it seems to have worked. We're not told that their deaths are mysterious or suspicious, and people don't seem to spend a lot of time thinking about this.

If I read you correctly, you're conceding that Ser Barristan probably did not know what the KG were tasked with beforehand. I don't see how he's in a position to know more than your average well-informed Westerosi about what happened after the fact. He would know all of Robert's secrets, presumably, but it's not generally believed that Robert knew. Ser Barristan wasn't known for his network of informers. And I don't see who he could have talked to who would have known better, save Ned, who obviously wouldn't have been forthcoming.

[Gold Storm]

I think that there has been a story concocted about why Hightower, Dayne and Whent were not at the crucial battles and how they died. You had the Lord commander and one of the most famous nights and blades in Westeros fighting at ToJ. People would be asking questions about where they were at and where they are now.

I do not know if Barristan knows exactly where they were at or why they were there. I do think he has wondered and might have asked some questions but I do not know if he knows the truth.

[Mezeh]

By the way Jaime knew at least one thing about Rhaegar that wasn’t a common knowledge – that Rhaegar intended to do some changes after war. Selmy had white cloak for much longer time so we could expect him to know some things as well. But what exactly we could only guess.

[Tim of Starfall]

ToS:

If I read you correctly, you're conceding that Ser Barristan probably did not know what the KG were tasked with beforehand. I don't see how he's in a position to know more than your average well-informed Westerosi about what happened after the fact. He would know all of Robert's secrets, presumably, but it's not generally believed that Robert knew. Ser Barristan wasn't known for his network of informers. And I don't see who he could have talked to who would have known better, save Ned, who obviously wouldn't have been forthcoming.

The real question is then : How good is that story?

Barristan may indeed have been told that story, but he, unlike any of the other names you mention (Pycelle, Tywin), knew these three intimately and personally and what is more, he shared their convictions about Jaime and how a KG should act.

It may indeed be the way you say and that he doesn't know.

However Barristan always has given me the impression he is smart (posing as an old man with Dany for instance). Not like Blount or the other KG during Roberts reign. Jaime has brains, but most of the others may not.

He is the only one who at one time after the war, will have been aware of the movements of BOTH sides.

To me it is a good possibility he actually knows or at least made more then a connection, of what is going on with their deaths and/or Jon. He might not know the complete truth (does he know Jon exists? he might believe Jon is a bastard or not, how the KG is killed, what was exactly going on in the tower? he might not know of Lyanna at all for instance), but i think he knows more than the reader. It might be even more interesting story wise if he knows only part of the truth and not everything.

I personally think that Howland Reed is the only one beside Barristan who knows more what went on in the ToJ and still is alive.

Similar to Ned, Selmy probably has never ever shared this with anybody, knowing it could cost him his life, and drown the Realm in an even bloodier war then the Rebellion.

[Mezeh]

I also think that Selmy most probably knows only parts of Rhaegar secrets that he learned occasionally since he never was prince’s close confident. Yet even parts may be enough to confirm or to oppose other’s stories.

SPOILER: ADWD

We apparently will meet in ADWD Jon Connington the only survived close friend of Rhaegar who for sure must know some of his secrets. Connington’s meeting with Selmy could be very interesting.

[Gold Storm]

By the way Jaime knew at least one thing about Rhaegar that wasn’t a common knowledge – that Rhaegar intended to do some changes after war. Selmy had white cloak for much longer time so we could expect him to know some things as well. But what exactly we could only guess.

Aerys was paranoid enough that he might have been afraid that Rhaegar was too close to some of the Kingsguard especially Dayne. That could be why some of them were not at the Trident. Aerys sent the Kingsguard that he could trust to keep an eye on Rhaegar (one of them was Prince Lewyn Martell who I think was an Uncle to Ellia), Jamie was kept at Kingslanding to keep Tywin honest, the other three were sent south to maybe help at the siege at Storm's End. Rhaegar could have stopped them and asked them to guard ToJ for him.

This is only a shot in the dark guess, but their has to be a reason that three of the best nights in the land were not at the major battles.

[Patrick Mallister]

Aerys was paranoid enough that he might have been afraid that Rhaegar was too close to some of the Kingsguard especially Dayne. That could be why some of them were not at the Trident. Aerys sent the Kingsguard that he could trust to keep an eye on Rhaegar (one of them was Prince Lewyn Martell who I think was an Uncle to Ellia), Jamie was kept at Kingslanding to keep Tywin honest, the other three were sent south to maybe help at the siege at Storm's End. Rhaegar could have stopped them and asked them to guard ToJ for him.

This is only a shot in the dark guess, but their has to be a reason that three of the best nights in the land were not at the major battles.

In regards to Prince Lewyn, he was sent specifically because he was not trusted. That is why Aerys kept Elia and the kiddies in KL and did not let them go to Dragonstone with his wife and Viserys. He was using them as hostages to keep Lewyn from joining the rebels. Everything we've seen from Doran's POV and the actions of the other Dornish seem to point that the Martels are extremely loyal to the Targs, so there seems to be no basis for his paranoia here, however, I think he basically told Lewyn that if they were to lose on the Trident to not come back alive.

[Gold Storm]

In regards to Prince Lewyn, he was sent specifically because he was not trusted. That is why Aerys kept Elia and the kiddies in KL and did not let them go to Dragonstone with his wife and Viserys. He was using them as hostages to keep Lewyn from joining the rebels. Everything we've seen from Doran's POV and the actions of the other Dornish seem to point that the Martels are extremely loyal to the Targs, so there seems to be no basis for his paranoia here, however, I think he basically told Lewyn that if they were to lose on the Trident to not come back alive.

I think the Martels were loyal to the Targs, but Aerys might have been afraid that they would join the rebels because Rhaegar left/cheated on Elia with Lyanna. Could also be a reason why Lewyn was sent to the Trident because he would have never joined Rhaegar.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

The real question is then : How good is that story?

Barristan may indeed have been told that story, but he, unlike any of the other names you mention (Pycelle, Tywin), knew these three intimately and personally and what is more, he shared their convictions about Jaime and how a KG should act.

Perhaps. But although Barristan would have known more about Ser Gerold Hightower's hopes and dreams, his reputation (like Whent's and especially Ser Arthur Dayne's) would have been fairly wide-spread. Anybody who frequents the tourney circuit would have seen them, and perhaps interacted with them or seen them in action; Barristan and Jorah know each other from the tourney at Lannisport, and presumably that kind of thing was not uncommon. Those who served at court, like the aforementioned Tywin and Pycelle, would have at least had a regular acquaintance with them that went back years, and thus would have known them better still.

So it's not like these were obscure men, and their view of how a KG should act was and is fairly widespread--it was also Ned's view, as far as we know, and it seems the view of many others--and the story (to be successful) presumably would not have had them acting out of step with it. I agree that Barristan would know them _better_, I'm not sure that his extra knowledge would prove to be decisive.

Also, as a general note, Barristan isn't necessarily the smartest person to have served on both sides and been familiar with the major players on both sides, and he certainly isn't the _only_ smart person to have done so. If we are assuming a successful story, it can't just be good enough for the rubes--it has to be enough for a Tywin Lannister to accept without substantial qualms.

[Gold Storm]

Perhaps. But although Barristan would have known more about Ser Gerold Hightower's hopes and dreams, his reputation (like Whent's and especially Ser Arthur Dayne's) would have been fairly wide-spread. Anybody who frequents the tourney circuit would have seen them, and perhaps interacted with them or seen them in action; Barristan and Jorah know each other from the tourney at Lannisport, and presumably that kind of thing was not uncommon. Those who served at court, like the aforementioned Tywin and Pycelle, would have at least had a regular acquaintance with them that went back years, and thus would have known them better still.

So it's not like these were obscure men, and their view of how a KG should act was and is fairly widespread--it was also Ned's view, as far as we know, and it seems the view of many others--and the story (to be successful) presumably would not have had them acting out of step with it. I agree that Barristan would know them _better_, I'm not sure that his extra knowledge would prove to be decisive.

They were known and popular knights, they could not just disappear during a rebellion with a lot people asking questions. There has to be some kinda story that explains why they were not fighting on the Trident and what happened to them. Barristan might believe that story or know more about it than what the general public knows. I do doubt that he knows the whole story of Rhaegar and Lynna but he might know something about it.

[Patrick Mallister]

They were known and popular knights, they could not just disappear during a rebellion with a lot people asking questions. There has to be some kinda story that explains why they were not fighting on the Trident and what happened to them. Barristan might believe that story or know more about it than what the general public knows. I do doubt that he knows the whole story of Rhaegar and Lynna but he might know something about it.

This is why the question of the KG at the TOJ is so frustrating for us readers. I don't think it was a big secret, nor is it now, as to why they were there, or that they were there. That being said, there could have been reasons given to mask true intentions given R+L....blah blah blah. This is one of those things Martin does so well. We debate the secrets that Barristan can tell us, but in Westeros, their not secrets, so the older characters who lived through these events and Targ reigns, don't think in terms of the "secrets" we want...that stuff is all obvious and uncontroversial to them, its simply history. And as it appears now to most, its ancient, irrelevent history. Combine all this with the fact that most of our POVs are kids, not alive or very young during the rebellion and Targ rule, we are a generation removed. IMO Tywin, Hoster Tully, Mace Tyrell, Doran, Ned, Jaime all know the things that we want to find out, and with the exception of Ned, who is preoccupied with Lyanna and his failure, what we want to know is of no consequence to their schemes, so when Tywin is plotting he doesn't think about the Targs. This is beginning to change with the POV of Jaime a bit, and will probably continue as it become clear Dany is coming.

[gedo]

SPOILER: ADWD

We apparently will meet in ADWD Jon Connington the only survived close friend of Rhaegar who for sure must know some of his secrets. Connington’s meeting with Selmy could be very interesting.

SPOILER: ADWD

I thought Jon Connington is supposed to be dead in exile? In ADWD chapters indicated that we'll see "young" Griff which I assumed that he is son of Jon Connington (or someone who was raised as his son)?

[Mezeh]

SPOILER: ADWD

I thought Jon Connington is supposed to be dead in exile? In ADWD chapters indicated that we'll see "young" Griff which I assumed that he is son of Jon Connington (or someone who was raised as his son)?

Read spoiler chapter more carefully.

[oldnan]

Read spoiler chapter more carefully.

All of this is confusing to me. I've never really been fond of the R+L=J theory mainly because I'd expect the KG to protect the king, heir, or the rest of the royal family. Even if L had been carrying R's kid would it really matter since the offspring would be a bastard? Taking care of the ones that were legit woul'd be the highest priority right?

Even if Rhaegar was determined to see the prophecy through I'm sure he could find another Stark in the next decade or so that's completely willing.

It's probably already been mentioned but did Rhaegar know that Dany was born before he died or no?

Meh, I guess what I'm really trying to say is though the KG are completely loyal (exception of Jaime) wouldn't they be able to excuse themselves from the TOJ and assist Rhaegar or perhaps Aerys and be pardoned for it after the war?

[Enguerrand]

All of this is confusing to me. I've never really been fond of the R+L=J theory mainly because I'd expect the KG to protect the king, heir, or the rest of the royal family. Even if L had been carrying R's kid would it really matter since the offspring would be a bastard? Taking care of the ones that were legit woul'd be the highest priority right?

Yep, which is why many believes Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, (which may seem farfetched, but Rhaegar wouldn’t be the first Targ with multiple wives.)

[a_homeless_harpy]

Yep, which is why many believes Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, (which may seem farfetched, but Rhaegar wouldn’t be the first Targ with multiple wives.)

Exactly. It isn't as far-fetched as it seems. A marriage of Raeghar and Lyanna would connect the North to the Iron Throne more tightly and people would consider it perfectly normal that a Targaryen king has two wives. At least they were not his sisters to boot.