Ser Barristan's secrets

[Ender]

Now _that_ would be interesting:

"Ser Arthur Dayne....blah blah blah...slain at the Tower of Joy by Lord Eddard Stark while charged with the protection of the unborn child of Rhaegar Targaryen and his [love slave] Lyanna Stark."

It wouldn't take a great leap of logic to connect Jon Snow with that unborn child, particularly for anyone who was aware of Robert's disposition towards Targaryens.

Incidentally, when one pieces the events of the war together, the actions/locations of the Kingsguard are somewhat bizarre. It is evident that Whent, Dayne, and Hightower were charged with the protection of Lyanna in apparent contradiction of their sworn vow to protect the royal line as we understand it, likely by Rhaegar. Ned mentions that they were not at KL when Jaime slew Aerys, which means they were likewise not with Elia and Aegon, the true heir to the Iron Throne in the case of Aerys' death, or with Rhaenys (though Targaryen succession rules with regards to women when other Targ males exist is not absolutely clear from the evidence we have atm). Llewyn Martell was slain on the Trident, Ser Barristan was injured there and out of commission for the rest of the war, Hightower, Whent, and Dayne were sent to the ToJ, leaving Jaime Lannister and Willem Darry to defend Aerys and his heirs in KL?

To be fair, Rhaegar likely believed he was destined to win at the Trident, meaning KL would never have been in serious danger. And if he was convinced in the importance of his love-child's role in the PwwP/AA prophecy, it makes sense that he would have the great Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower see to Lyanna's safety.

The wrinkle comes when Aerys, Aegon, and Rhaenys are all slain in KL, leaving Viserys on Dragonstone as king with only Darry to protect him and enemies that would soon be coming to wipe out the Targs for good and all.

(a) Why would a body whose very existence is based on protecting the royal line eschew protecting the king in favor of a dead prince's bastard? Are we to believe that all three of these men of the utmost repute would forswear themselves on behalf of their dead prince's crackpot belief that his bastard would save the world?

( Why does Hightower imply that Darry violates his Kingsguard vows by being with Viserys?

If anything, Hightower, Dayne, and Whent were in willing violation of their vows on behalf of the notion that they were protecting the savior of the world--but, as honorable a charge as that might be, that has nothing to do with honoring their vow as members of the Kingsguard.

The most logical way for that scene to make sense is if Rhaegar's child by Lyanna was legitimate, making him (or her) the rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. Hightower, Dayne, and Whent are thus honoring their vow to protect the royal line, while Darry is "false" because he's not guarding the rightful ruler (albeit Viserys would still be R+L's heir). An interesting derivative question would be whether Rhaegar intended to disinherit Aegon and Rhaenys, naming his child with Lyanna as his heir, or if Whent, Hightower and Dayne end up guarding the (would-be) king by coincidence of Aegon and Rhaenys being killed when KL is sacked?

[Angalin]

I always figured the "false" part was directed at Jaime. But yeah, the whole KG/Tower of Joy thing cropped up in the Jon's parentage re-read thread (which I am too lazy to link to, but is in General near the top).

[Gold Storm]

I do not think that Darry was in the Kingsguard, the false brother was Jamie. I would also like to know why Whent, Dayne, and Hightower were at TOJ and not at Kingslanding with Aerys.

[Ender]

I always figured the "false" part was directed at Jaime. But yeah, the whole KG/Tower of Joy thing cropped up in the Jon's parentage re-read thread (which I am too lazy to link to, but is in General near the top).

The specific passage:

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince [sic] Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

do not think that Darry was in the Kingsguard

You ser, are correct--why Martin chose to confound the issue by making a Jonothor Darry as a member of the KG is beyond me.

Yet that offers just more evidence: there was _NO_ member of the KG with the king on Dragonstone and Jaime Lannister was the only KG in all of KL guarding Aerys, Aegon, and Rhaenys...

[KnightofTheLaughingTree]

The whole TOJ thing doesn't make any sense to me. For one, the KG's vow was to protect the king, with your life if necessary. So for them to say they swore vows seems to imply that there was a king in the tower. Which would mean that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

However, if this were the case, does any reasonable man possibly think that Ned Stark is going to kill his nephew? Even moreso when his sister willingly entered into this relationship? I just don't understand what the KG would've accomplished by holding off Ned and his men.

Plus, being that Barristan wasn't with the 3 at the Tower, it makes it unlikely that he knows that Jon is the true heir of Westeros.(If R+L=J) Mainly because if he knew, it would be likely that Jaime would know also. It seems unlikely for Jaime to have any reason to keep that secret.

[Roza Ahai]

William Darry's brother was a kingsguard who also died at Trident as i remember. 3 kingsguards at Trident, Jaime in Kings Landing and 3 kingsguards at the ToJ. Only Jaime to protect king Aerys, Elia with children, legitimate Targs

and 3 guards to protect a bastard. Is not it weird?

If Rhaegar thought that newborn baby is the PTWP, first of all this child should be legitimate and well protected, thus 3 kingsquards at ToJ can be explained. Then after Aerys' death Jon became a king of Westeros (that king is at the NW now, as a consequence he lost his rights for the kingdom).

Kingsqurds at the ToJ definetely won't give their king to Ned because he is Robert's friend. Robert could harm the child, not Ned, kingsquards should be afraid of this.

If that old man at NW was Barristan, that means he knows about Jon.

I find following ambiguous. If Aerys did not trust Rhaegar, why Aerys let his son to control Kingsquard? Jaime asked him not Aerys to let him go to Trident. Varys persuaded Aerys to allow Rhaegar control Kingsguard?

[Mezeh]

It would be easy to connect Ned Stark bastard with Lyanna son… only for somebody who knew about her pregnancy. And if she was pregnant Rhaegar had very good reason to keep it deep in secret. So I don’t think that Barristan was aware of Lyanna pregnancy. He could have suspected because he had to wonder where and why his brothers went but he didn’t know for sure.

[Mezeh]

If Aerys did not trust Rhaegar, why Aerys let his son to control Kingsquard? Jaime asked him not Aerys to let him go to Trident. Varys persuaded Aerys to allow Rhaegar control Kingsguard?

Rhaegar had the power by default as crown prince. We know that KG were supposed to take orders from all members of royal family not only from the king himself. For example in Hedge Knight Maekar commanded KG and he by the time wasn’t even a heir but rather low in the line of succession. Of course king’s orders supersede orders of prince but if the King never knew…

[Gold Storm]

I think another reason that the Kingsguard was scattered all over the place was that Aerys did not totally trust them. I the past civil wars, members of the Kingsguard fought on both sides. Aerys kept Jaime thinking that that would keep the Lannisters in line but the others were sent away from him.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I believe that Barristan Selmy went to the Wall to check out Jon Snow first, before heading overseas to meet with Dany. I think he knows about R+L=J.

Jon is in the training yard, although not training. I believe he was still injured after the Wildlings fight (I do not have the books at hand, and it has been some time since I have reread them).

Anyhow, Jon notices a White Bearded man (maybe grey) leaning on a staff. It is one line among a few detailing new recruits. The old man described there doesn't show up again at the Wall.

When next we see Selmy he is bearded and fighting with a quarterstaff. Maybe one of the secrets he tells Dany is she has a half-brother, a smart, strong half-brother who is a leader of men, capable commander, etc.

We've danced this dance before, and the problem is, there's no real reason for Barristan to go to the Wall and leave. He knows about Daenerys, knows that she has an alliance of sorts with Illyrio from Pentos, so why not head straight there?

(Well, the other problem is that the timeline doesn't really work; Ser Barristan leaves King's Landing about a week before Arya does, and gets to the Wall before Yoren makes it even as far as the God's Eye? Come on now.)

[Mutethunder]

Barristan could have taken a ship, the most likely option, while Yoren and his party had a wagon, the wheels broke several times and they had to move out of the road several times if I recall correctly.

I'm not convinced that it's Barristan though.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Barristan could have taken a ship, the most likely option, while Yoren and his party had a wagon, the wheels broke several times and they had to move out of the road several times if I recall correctly.

Still, that's a very short voyage. It doesn't help that, according to Conwy (the travelling brother who brought the crew in), the group came from a lord's dungeon near Gulltown. This means that either Conwy is lying for reasons unknown, or that Barristan took a ship to Gulltown, committed a crime and got himself locked up, hoping that he would then be allowed to join the Night's Watch. Neither sounds plausible.

And again, there's no reason for Barristan to come to the Wall.

[Prince of the North]

Still, that's a very short voyage. It doesn't help that, according to Conwy (the travelling brother who brought the crew in), the group came from a lord's dungeon near Gulltown. This means that either Conwy is lying for reasons unknown, or that Barristan took a ship to Gulltown, committed a crime and got himself locked up, hoping that he would then be allowed to join the Night's Watch. Neither sounds plausible.

And again, there's no reason for Barristan to come to the Wall.

Yeah, I think the theory is that Barristan knows about Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and, thus, the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. This is why he would go to the Wall when he left KL - to check up on the leading Targ heir. Then, when he realizes that Jon took the oath so he can't be king he leaves to go to the next Targ heir, Dany.

Wow, I don't subscribe to that theory and, as I wrote it, I became even more aware of how far out it sounds. Why go to the Wall to check up on Jon only to leave again without even talking with him? That makes no sense. If Barristan really did know about Jon wouldn't he be more likely to reveal Jon's true identitiy to him and try to get him to somehow pursue his claim? And, as we've all talked about before, just how would Jon do that anyway? It just doesn't really add up.

No, I really don't think Barristan knows about Jon. If R+L=J, it's revelation is going to have to be very special indeed for people to believe it. Also, Barristan knowing about it would seem to lessen the dramatic impact of it when it finally is revealed, right? I think Barristan went to Dany because he thinks she's the leading Targ heir and he wants to serve her. I don't think he likes or respects the Lannisters, et al., very much. He also had a vague idea of where to search for her due to his knowledge of King Robert sending assassins east after her and her brother.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

No, I really don't think Barristan knows about Jon. If R+L=J, it's revelation is going to have to be very special indeed for people to believe it. Also, Barristan knowing about it would seem to lessen the dramatic impact of it when it finally is revealed, right? I think Barristan went to Dany because he thinks she's the leading Targ heir and he wants to serve her. I don't think he likes or respects the Lannisters, et al., very much. He also had a vague idea of where to search for her due to his knowledge of King Robert sending assassins east after her and her brother.

Going off of that--and getting back on topic--there's no evidence that Barristan was particularly close to Rhaegar. He admits that "no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar truly," and he doesn't list himself as one of the prince's close friends. In context--I'm looking at his conversation with Dany and Ser Jorah on her first chapter--he concedes the opposite, that he knew the prince only casually. He doesn't seem to know of Rhaegar's interest in prophecy (hence, "No man know what it might have been", when talking about what inspired Rhaegar to train for battle at last). It's also telling that whenever he's asked about Rhaegar, he refers to the prince's reputation--"Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance," etc.--not any personal conversation. Obviously, Ser Barristan had some sort of relationship with Prince Rhaegar, presumably a friendly one, but the prince doesn't seem to have confided in him particularly.

It seems to me too that this is exactly the right knowledge level for a character to have at this point in the series. Obviously GRRM wants to round out Rhaegar a bit, hint at some of the things that were driving him, all to lay the groundwork for the R+L=J revelation sometime in TWoW or ADoS; but he doesn't want to reveal too much, so he gives some background from characters who admired him from a distance (Jaime and Barristan), and drop a little bit from Aemon who is in the process of dying and thinking of other things. It gives the readers a taste, not the whole meal (which is being held back for later).

[Prince of the North]

I couldn't agree more, Fat Man!

[Mezeh]

Going off of that--and getting back on topic--there's no evidence that Barristan was particularly close to Rhaegar. He admits that "no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar truly," and he doesn't list himself as one of the prince's close friends. In context--I'm looking at his conversation with Dany and Ser Jorah on her first chapter--he concedes the opposite, that he knew the prince only casually.

You are mostly right yet don’t forget that while saying all that Selmy was posing as mere Arstan. Barristan Selmy on the other hand maybe never was one of Rhaegar friends but as KG he closely observed him from the moment the prince was born to the moment Rhaegar died with just a few periods when one of them was away. This means that Selmy should know Rhaegar much better then Arstan was pretending to know.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

You are mostly right yet don’t forget that while saying all that Selmy was posing as mere Arstan. Barristan Selmy on the other hand maybe never was one of Rhaegar friends but as KG he closely observed him from the moment the prince was born to the moment Rhaegar died with just a few periods when one of them was away. This means that Selmy should know Rhaegar much better then Arstan was pretending to know.

"Just a few periods"? How do we know that? Unlike, say, Maester Pycelle--who is never theorized to be particularly close to Rhaegar, so far as I know--Selmy has duties that may take him away from King's Landing, whether to guard/rescue the king, to lead the royal forces in battle, or any number of other, similar tasks. While in Rhaegar's presence, he may have been observing Rhaegar closely or not--we're not told--but that's no indication that Barristan understand Rhaegar any more than your average King's Landing steward. And certainly on the question raised already--whether Barristan knew of Jon's parentage--it certainly seems that even those people who were observing Rhaegar closely were not aware of what precisely was happening in the Tower of Joy.

[Mezeh]

It was told that Aerys gave the realm peace and prosperity so while ser Barristan Duties took him away from the court from time to time he definitely spent most of his time around royal family. After all guarding them was his primal duty and the family itself was never big in his time so he spent a lot of time around prince as well.

How closely Selmy observed Rhaegar? Definitely no less them his little brother and since Selmy noticed unpleasant sights around Viserys while he was still a little child he observed Viserys close enough. We also have reason to believe that Selmy not just observe things but actually notice them and record. Therefore anything unusual about Rhaegar almost sure would have drained Selmy’s attention.

[Gold Storm]

A lot of this depends on how much time Rhaegar spent in Kingslanding. Barristan did fight in the Trident besides Rhaegar but I think he was sent by Aerys. Hightower was the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard so he knew why they were sent to ToJ. I am not sure Barristan would know why the others were not at the battle but far to the south.

It looks like Ned thought the they might have been at the siege of Storms End. Part of me believes that this might have been the cover story putout to explain why three of the best blades of the KG were not at the Trident. I would not be too surprised to learn that Rhaegar was closer to the the three at ToJ, and Aerys sent the other three KG to the trident to keep an eye on Rhaegar (kinda like what happened with Mandon Moore and Tyrion at the Battle of Blackwater); maybe not to kill him but to make sure Rhaegar did not march on KL if he had won at the Trident.

[Mezeh]

Actually Aerys trusted to his KG. There is enough proof of that. Jaime recalled that he become so paranoid that allowed no swords in his presence but of KG. Jaime also recalled that Rhaegar said to him that Aerys feared Tywin and felt safe only with Jaime around him. So Aerys trusted Jaime too…

As for 3 KG at TOJ we know that Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar close friend but again Jaime remember White Bull as a man absolutely loyal to the King. So he wouldn’t do anything against Aerys even on Rhaegar’s command. We know nothing where the loyalty of the third KG at TOJ laid.