The Worth of Renly Baratheon

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

“Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He’ll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he’s copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.” (ACOK 75)

I think that is bull. I think Renly was the king who would have brought the realm together and ruled it intelligently and effectively for the rest of his life. Robert was the frontman, the meathead who was not worth that much at the end of the day.

Renly lost the war because Stannis and Mel had a power that others didn't understand and couldn't fight. Not because he was, as Donal Noye puts it, "not worth all that much." it was Renly who was prepared to fight the Lannisters, Renly who rallied the south en masse, Renly who sat on the small council for years with some of the smartest men of the age -- Jon Arryn, Petyr Baelish, Varys the Spider -- and Renly who could have brought the realm together and inspired loyalty just as Robert did. Renly was the true steel.

If you disagree, fine. But if you even see a little bit of truth in it, then I ask this: why would geniuses like Littlefinger and Tywin allow a war to start whose only logical end was a huge victory for Renly Baratheon? what had they to gain in the face of Renly's 100,000?

[Guest Other-in-law]

Eh. I agree a little bit, I think Renly was worth more than Noye gave him credit for. The bigger problem is that he gave Robert way too much credit. His comments may make sense if the subject is purely one of martial prowess (though the Stannis section sounds like it's about his personality in general). Renly seems to have been quite mediocre for a warrior.

Robert may have been steel when he fought on the Trident, but he sure as hell wasn't steel when he let Cersei order his best friend's daughter's pet killed, or throughout most of aGoT. Renly's assent on killing pregnant Dany is just as repellent as Robert's decision to do it, though. He may have been a better king, and would probably would have been pleasant and easy to hang out with, but was he the man to lead the realm in a desperate fight for survival against the Others? Not judging by his sluggish performance against the Lannisters.

Oh, and Renly's victory was hardly the only logical outcome. It may have been a perfectly plausible possibility, but I think I'd put my money on Tywin over Renly in a heartbeat.

[BrainFireBob]

Disagree a bit, OiL- I think the analogy ws a brilliant one. Robert was the true steel- and like any good steel, he rusted when not cared for properly. Robert needed to be loved- of the three, he's the man you'd want at your side when the chips were down. Loyal, generous, and fierce. Stannis would be cold, impersonal, and calculating- and might break under the strain, and Renly would cut a deal with the other side. But Robert was true.

Matters that it's a fighting man, and a common-born one, giving his assessment.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='BrainFireBob' post='1273913' date='Mar 15 2008, 00.54']Robert needed to be loved- of the three, he's the man you'd want at your side when the chips were down. Loyal, generous, and fierce.[/quote]
Robert had a very disturbing tendency to turn a blind eye to things that he really should have been dealing with, both on a personal and on a state level. The corruption of his physical flesh seems like a metaphor for the corruption festering in the kingdom throughout his reign.
[quote]and Renly would cut a deal with the other side. But Robert was true.[/quote]
Have we really seen any evidence of Renly being treacherous? I think he was just as true as Robert (which isn't all that much, unless we're using 'true' as a synonym for 'pig-headed' :P) in his own way. Maybe the sham marriage with Margaery was a bit false and unfair to her, but beyond that Renly seemed to be a decent enough man.

It's interesting when Ned [i]twice[/i] implores Robert to adopt the ways of the First Men and kill his victims personally, and he thinks Ned mad for suggesting it. Robert no more wants Lady's and Dany's and her unborn child's blood on his hands than he wanted Rhaenys and Aegon's blood on his hands (though of course he wanted [i]the benefit[/i] of their deaths). In a way, he's a terrible coward.

Stannis, on the other hand, quite readily agreed to the First Man way, taking Davos' fingers off personally.

[Jaak]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1273895' date='Mar 15 2008, 07.30']He may have been a better king, and would probably would have been pleasant and easy to hang out with, but was he the man to lead the realm in a desperate fight for survival against the Others? Not judging by his sluggish performance against the Lannisters.

Oh, and Renly's victory was hardly the only logical outcome. It may have been a perfectly plausible possibility, but I think I'd put my money on Tywin over Renly in a heartbeat.[/quote]

What do you thing was the underlying reason for Renly´s sluggish action against Lannisters?

Was it due to sloth, cowardice, incompetence? Or was it deliberately aimed to impress his potential enemies with show of strength and wide support - to give them time to defect and bend their knee, before blood needs to be shed?

[respectabull]

Honestly, Ned was the kind of man that should have ruled the Kingdom. Even though he made some mistakes in his dealings with Little finger, his disdain for power mixed with his strong sense of Justice and Duty would have been ideal for the protection of the realm. Only he would be willing to strengthen the wall without strings attached. Everyone else is in this mad scheme for power would have and does try to screw the wall; Ned wanted to keep clean. Its sad that Ned had to go... I just hope his legacy lives on in the remaining children he has left.

Oh, and fuck Tywinn

[Poobah]

Ned could have taken the throne, but he couldn't have held on to it. He'd have been destroyed in the game of thrones.

-Poobs

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1273933' date='Mar 15 2008, 07.24']Have we really seen any evidence of Renly being treacherous?[/quote]Apart from leaving Ned to his own devices and not supporting the lawful heir, you mean?


[quote name='Jaak' post='1273976' date='Mar 15 2008, 09.27']What do you thing was the underlying reason for Renly´s sluggish action against Lannisters?

Was it due to sloth, cowardice, incompetence? Or was it deliberately aimed to impress his potential enemies with show of strength and wide support - to give them time to defect and bend their knee, before blood needs to be shed?[/quote]Both, but it's not that important in my view. What I would be concerned with is that Robbert beggared the realm by doing exactly what Renly did when he marched. I find it unlikely Renly would have been the disciplined ruler the realm would have needed to get back on its feet. Most likely, he would have sunk it a bit more with his spending habits. Being slow to give his enemies time to switch side is one thing, but he could do it without spending fortunes and risking the health of his best fighters, I think he would have been that much more threatening with an army that didn't look like it was on a picnic.

[The Warlock of Qarth]

[quote name='Dom Errignon B. '77' post='1274049' date='Mar 15 2008, 13.32']Apart from leaving Ned to his own devices and not supporting the lawful heir, you mean?[/quote]

To be fair, I do think that was Ned's own fault really. Renly offered his men to Ned when Robert lay dying but good honest Ned just didn't have the stomach to actually seize the queen and her children while Robert still lived (never mind the fact that Robert was basically comatose). This delay allowed Cersei to bolster her own defences and Renly knew that even with the combined household guards of himself and Ned they wouldn't be able to seize Cersei and her brood. Needless to say he immediately left Kingslanding after Ned turned down his offer. Honorable? Not really, but we all know what doing the honorable thing brought Ned. What Renly did was the politically sensible thing to do and I can only blame Ned for his own undoing in that matter.

[Mutethunder]

[quote name='Poobah' post='1274041' date='Mar 15 2008, 13.13']Ned could have taken the throne, but he couldn't have held on to it. He'd have been destroyed in the game of thrones.

-Poobs[/quote]

Nah, I think he would do fairly well. He'd have the support of the Stormlands, Vale, Riverlands and the North. Jaime would be sent to the wall or go back to living at the Rock, Jon Arryn would still probably make the suggestion of marrying Cersei to Robert.
Justice would be done for Elia of Dorne and her children, you can argue wether Tywin would be the one who gets his head looped of or ser Armory and Gregor.

Anyway Noyle only knew Renly as a child, didn't he go to the Wall after the war was over? And indeed Robert was true steel at that time, Stannis the one who never laughed and prickly, and Renly ran around dressing up "Look at me I'm a dragon" etc Maester Cressen thoughts the last one.

[JoannaL]

Renly was not the lawful heir. That does not only mean that he could never be a good king in an ethical sense.

More important under his reign there would never be peace, since everyone could feel just as justified to overthrow him. We have seen what happened after Roberts death. the 5 kingWar is a late consequence out of the rebellion. The Targaryens could unite and reign the realm because they where not one of the great houses of Westeros but something more, something from outside. Under Robert everything worked out just because of his personality and his contacts and friendships with the members of the other great houses. But only 16 years after the Rebellion a Robb Stark remembers that he has no reason to kneel before a Stannis Baratheon and declare himself king.

With a Renly Baratheon as king of Westeros things would deterioate even more since there is no reason at all to follow him.

[The Warlock of Qarth]

[quote name='JoannaL' post='1274093' date='Mar 15 2008, 15.12']Renly was not the lawful heir. That does not only mean that he could never be a good king in an ethical sense.

More important under his reign there would never be peace, since everyone could feel just as justified to overthrow him. We have seen what happened after Roberts death. the 5 kingWar is a late consequence out of the rebellion. The Targaryens could unite and reign the realm because they where not one of the great houses of Westeros but something more, something from outside. Under Robert everything worked out just because of his personality and his contacts and friendships with the members of the other great houses. But only 16 years after the Rebellion a Robb Stark remembers that he has no reason to kneel before a Stannis Baratheon and declare himself king.

With a Renly Baratheon as king of Westeros things would deterioate even more since there is no reason at all to follow him.[/quote]

Hmmm, not too sure about that. If Renly would've become king he would have the Stormlands and the Reach behind him. The Lannisters would've been defeated and discredited, the Vale would've maintained their allegiance and Dorne would've grumbled but wouldn't rebel with Doran as their Prince, since Doran knows Dorne is not as strong as their reputation merits. This leaves the Riverlands and the North under Robb as the only possible breakaway province. The Riverlands would fall to Renly eventually, due to it's open borders and the vast manpower reserves of the Reach. Robb could hold a defense of the North at Moat Caillin but that's as far as his power will reach. If Robb agrees with Renly's proposal of bending knee but maintaining his titular kingship I don't see the honorable Starks and Tullys rebelling anytime soon. So, I don't see any major rebellions in Renly's lifetime in case he would've succeeded, though the way he gained his kingship does set a bad precedent.

[JoannaL]

[quote name='Warlock of Quarth' post='1274112' date='Mar 15 2008, 15.49']Hmmm, not too sure about that. If Renly would've become king he would have the Stormlands and the Reach behind him. The Lannisters would've been defeated and discredited, the Vale would've maintained their allegiance and Dorne would've grumbled but wouldn't rebel with Doran as their Prince, since Doran knows Dorne is not as strong as their reputation merits. This leaves the Riverlands and the North under Robb as the only possible breakaway province. The Riverlands would fall to Renly eventually, due to it's open borders and the vast manpower reserves of the Reach. Robb could hold a defense of the North at Moat Caillin but that's as far as his power will reach. If Robb agrees with Renly's proposal of bending knee but maintaining his titular kingship I don't see the honorable Starks and Tullys rebelling anytime soon. So, I don't see any major rebellions in Renly's lifetime in case he would've succeeded, though the way he gained his kingship does set a bad precedent.[/quote]
If he won the 5 kingWar and somehow also LF died than he could have hold KL for a while. But I doubt that it would be a long and peaceful reign. The West and the riverland would rebel as soon as they had recovered from the last war. He could IMHO only prevent that if he pulled a full 'Castamere' on the Lannisters and a lot of other great houses and he is not the type to do that (which is in his favor). I think he is a kind of 'Summer knight' like his followers and he has not thought all that through thoroughly.

[Lord Varys]

[quote]Maybe the sham marriage with Margaery was a bit false and unfair to her, but beyond that Renly seemed to be a decent enough man.[/quote]

You think Margaery Tyrell was surprised of or shamed/irritated by the fact that Loras and Renly loved each other, and her marriage with Renly was just the way to form the Alliance officially, and to secure that Renly will father an legitimate heir to the Iron Throne.

Margaery must have been aware of Renly's and Loras's relationship, as must have all the Tyrells. She certainly felt in no way uneasy about Loras's and Renly's love and her part in the whole thing. At least, we have no reason to believe that she did.

[Jaak]

[quote name='Dom Errignon B. '77' post='1274049' date='Mar 15 2008, 14.32']Both, but it's not that important in my view. What I would be concerned with is that Robbert beggared the realm by doing exactly what Renly did when he marched. I find it unlikely Renly would have been the disciplined ruler the realm would have needed to get back on its feet. Most likely, he would have sunk it a bit more with his spending habits.[/quote]
Do we hear of Robert ruling anything before the Iron Throne?

Before Aerys wrote for his read, Robert was the ward of Jon Arryn in Vale through his youth. Harbert Baratheon was castellan, and it does not seem that the boy far away in Vale had much to decide in Stormlands.

Whereas Renly looks more like Lord of Storm´s End. While he does spend time in King´s Landing as master of laws, his castellan, ser Courtenay Penrose, at least seems to be his appointee.

Do we hear of Renly beggaring the Stormlands by demanding too much money for him to spend at court?

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

in response to the subject of the Renly-Margaery marriage:
lord varys has it right. it was a political alliance, and Renly was already very friendly with the Tyrells. I suspect he would satisfy Margaery as much as she could possibly want, and she could do whoever she wanted on the side, if she didn't want to get with her brother's lover. in fact I think her love for her brother may bond her tighter to Renly than most.

as for Renly's "treachery":
1. He left King's Landing because if he didn't, he would have died. I bless him for checking in on Ned before he left. That alliance would have been the obvious one, and the strongest, had Ned gone with him. This act was a perfect blend of politics and honor.
2. He attempted to take the crown because he knew no one would rally for Stannis. Everyone hates Stannis. And do you really want to leave the Iron Throne to the Lannisters? His claim to the throne is not perfect, but it was quite good -- fourth in line, and second and third are women related to Stannis. Furthermore, if you recall his conversation with Ned at the end of AGOT, he's not exactly power hungry. He just wants a certain measure of justice.

so now back to my question. with 100,000 swords behind him, and less than that among everyone else combined, what did the precipitators of war stand to gain?

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Jaak' post='1274240' date='Mar 15 2008, 12.51']Harbert Baratheon was castellan, and it does not seem that the boy far away in Vale had much to decide in Stormlands.[/quote]
How do you know that uncle Harbert's last name was Baratheon and not Estermont?
AHSOIAF,
[quote]so now back to my question. with 100,000 swords behind him, and less than that among everyone else combined, what did the precipitators of war stand to gain?[/quote]
First, Renly didn't have those 100,000 swords when the war was precipitated, by his estimate he could call on just 100. The Lannisters shouldn't have let him sneak out a postern door, that was a major error on their part, but they were more concerned about Ned at the time.
Second, even when he did have those 100,000, it's noteworthy that more intelligent Lannisters, Tywin and Tyrion, fear Stannis and his paltry host much more. That really says something.

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1274278' date='Mar 15 2008, 14.44']AHSOIAF,

First, Renly didn't have those 100,000 swords when the war was precipitated, by his estimate he could call on just 100. The Lannisters shouldn't have let him sneak out a postern door, that was a major error on their part, but they were more concerned about Ned at the time.
Second, even when he did have those 100,000, it's noteworthy that more intelligent Lannisters, Tywin and Tyrion, fear Stannis and his paltry host much more. That really says something.[/quote]

first, Renly had the loyalty of the Stormlands and at least some alliance with the Reach before his marriage cemented the deal. i contend that his relationship with Loras brought him together with the Tyrells. and if Renly had bent the knee to his brother instead of claiming the crown for himself, his marriage to margaery could have served much the same purpose, though for a different king. Mace Tyrell -- and more importantly the Queen of Thorns -- may very well have seen the merit of uniting the cause of their two houses. such alliances were common in the past, and the preexisting relationship between Loras and Renly only strengthens the alliance.
what i'm saying is that regardless of whether he seeks the crown for himself or for his brother, it is Renly who seems to be the perfect husband for margaery. Renly was one of the most powerful men in the 7 kingdoms. during AGOT, we were denied this perspective. but there it is.

your second point is exactly my point. those tourneys on the way north were not idle, extravagant affairs squandering his resources. they were rallying points for Renly's massive army. and in addition to being massive, it had attracted some of the most valiant knights of the age, among them Renly's Rainbow Guard. so without the ability to forsee Renly's assassination, why did Tywin and Tyrion not fear Renly?

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='AHackeySackOfIceAndFire' post='1274385' date='Mar 15 2008, 15.42']so without the ability to forsee Renly's assassination, why did Tywin and Tyrion not fear Renly?[/quote]
Because he hadn't demonstrated himself to be a formidable opponent, except 'on paper'. He never won any battles in his entire life. Stannis had won several....he held out at Storm's End, he conquered Dragonstone, he defeated the Iron Fleet during Balon Greyjoys rebellion. He never gives up and keeps fighting until his foes are crushed.

Renly on the other hand, has proven himself adept at dressing expensively and making jokes with Littlefinger. That's about it. Not even determined enough to be a formidable jouster in tourneys.

So yeah, he had 100,000 men, but what was he going to do with them? Hope Robb Stark beat the Lannisters for him? Presumably he would have [i]eventually[/i] arrived at KL and besieged it, but that was a bridge to be crossed when the time came. Maybe Tywin and Tyrion would have come up with a plan to seduce some of his supporters away from him, or lure them into a trap, or they could negotiate something like having him marry Myrcella instead and make him Hand or somethin.

The main thing is that Renly was either completely untested (or if he was, he failed such tests as he took). Stannis passed his tests.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='AHackeySackOfIceAndFire' post='1273862' date='Mar 15 2008, 00.59']Renly lost the war because Stannis and Mel had a power that others didn't understand and couldn't fight. Not because he was, as Donal Noye puts it, "not worth all that much." it was Renly who was prepared to fight the Lannisters, Renly who rallied the south en masse, Renly who sat on the small council for years with some of the smartest men of the age -- Jon Arryn, Petyr Baelish, Varys the Spider -- and Renly who could have brought the realm together and inspired loyalty just as Robert did. Renly was the true steel.[/quote]

If Renly was prepared to fight the Lannisters, it's only because he took his sweet old time doing so. How long did he take to march towards King's Landing? Two months? Three? And he still never got near it. As to his council mates, sure, well, they may indeed have been clever, but that says nothing about Renly. Renly got on the council because he was Robert's brother, not because he was some brilliant statesman.

[quote name='AHackeySackOfIceAndFire' post='1273862' date='Mar 15 2008, 00.59']If you disagree, fine. But if you even see a little bit of truth in it, then I ask this: why would geniuses like Littlefinger and Tywin allow a war to start whose only logical end was a huge victory for Renly Baratheon? what had they to gain in the face of Renly's 100,000?[/quote]

Maybe because Tywin and Littlefinger are smart enough to know that in war things change all the time. Stannis might have drawn away some of Renly's storm lords, or Mace Tyrell might have gotten cold feet, or any number of unforeseeable things might happen to weaken Renly's power. And they did.