Lord Renly Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Theon might feel remorse about the child-killing, but then he slept with the miller's wife, the mother of those children. Jaime and Sandor had no personal connection to the children they killed or to their mothers and families. This does not excuse the killing, but it does explain why Theon felt remorse while they did not. And it does not make Theon a better person. Of COURSE you feel worse about killing the children of someone you had a sexual/romantic connection to than some random child. Theon certainly shows no guilt or remorse or even acknowledgment for the children he kills while reaving. Besides, remorse is useless unless it actually gets you to do something different. Jaime never self-flagellates with guilt and remorse, but he does decide to stop doing bad things and start doing good things. Theon gets emo and has nightmares, but that doesn't inspire him to actually change his ways. And if he's in a "trap," well, it's of his own making. He didn't have to conquer Winterfell and he didn't have to stick around there after he conquered it. Jaime and Sandor also both have the admirable quality of being able to see past bullshit propaganda into the realities of knighthood and politics and their culture's ideals. Theon, by contrast, swallows Ironborn cultural propaganda about how reaving and conquest and machismo are so great. It's only Asha who sees the failings of this propaganda, not Theon. I dislike Sandor as much as I dislike Theon and don't think he deserves his popularity. But he does share that appealing quality, though unlike Jaime he is not trying to be a good person. Sandor and Jaime also share the appealing quality of actually giving a shit about individuals other than themselves and doing their best for them. Theon cares for no one except (slightly) the Starks, and he betrays them for power. All of these factors taken together explain why Jaime and Sandor are more popular than Theon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackfish Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I think Jaime and Sandor, in the end, come off as more competent than Theon, and that is the bottom line. Theon fails a lot, Theon gets schooled by a girl, he's clearly not the incorrigible jerk we seek *jedi handwave* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A wilding Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 [quote name='Lord Renly' post='1638514' date='Jan 5 2009, 20.22']Sandor and Jaime also share the appealing quality of actually giving a shit about individuals other than themselves and doing their best for them. Theon cares for no one except (slightly) the Starks, and he betrays them for power.[/quote] This one is the bottom line for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalky Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 [quote name='Lady Blackfish' post='1638934' date='Jan 5 2009, 23.00']I think Jaime and Sandor, in the end, come off as more competent than Theon, and that is the bottom line.[/quote] They're also a good 10-14 years older, and were just as selfish and arrogant as theon was when they were 17-20 (not sure of respective ages) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 [quote name='Chalky' post='1639504' date='Jan 6 2009, 12.03']They're also a good 10-14 years older, and were just as selfish and arrogant as theon was when they were 17-20 (not sure of respective ages)[/quote] But that's not true. Jaime was kind to and protective of Tyrion, he loved Cersei so much that he sacrificed his inheritance (one of the greatest in whole Westeros) for her. Could you see Theon doing any of these things? Not in a million years. Jaime can be generous and true, however twisted he may have become. He is turning against Cersei now, but it took a really huge provocation and disloyalty on her part. Etc. We know little about young Sandor and in any case I don't like him as much as many here do, but his treatment by Gregor doesn't compare to Theon's treatment by the Starks in any way either. It is more understandable for Sandor to want to be terrifying - disfigured younger son of a knight, he could only count on his weapons skill and his intimidating reputation for sustenance and protection. And he can care about people too, as his interaction with both Sansa and Arya show. Theon is incompetent yes, and it costs him coolness points (funnily enough, very like Cersei he tends to congratulate himself on his brilliance, and is just clever enough to be trouble for others, but not to really accomplish his own goals), he is whiny and has entitlement issues (also like Cersei), which costs him more. But in the end, I hate him because he is so completely self-centered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Irving Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 He is the one charchter that I hope gets captured then broken on a wheel. Murdering those two boys as the op said just to prove he wasn't incompetent shows that he is both incompetent and totally insecure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartseverus Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='Peter Irving' post='1652651' date='Jan 17 2009, 17.26']He is the one charchter that I hope gets captured then broken on a wheel. Murdering those two boys as the op said just to prove he wasn't incompetent shows that he is both incompetent and totally insecure.[/quote] ummm, you haven't read the spoiler chapters from Dance With Dragons, I take it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Irving Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='iheartseverus' post='1652656' date='Jan 17 2009, 16.34']ummm, you haven't read the spoiler chapters from Dance With Dragons, I take it?[/quote] I'm on book three so no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerenna Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Honestly, I don't hate Theon at all. I understand him. He is weak, true. But what can you expect? In CoK, he recalls how his elder brothers molested and mistreated him, Rodrik slapping him in drunken stupor and Maron doing it verbally. Then, he was taken away from home at ten years of age, to be raised by Eddard Stark. His father's enemy. So, he spent half of his life on Iron Isles, and the other half at Winterfell. Very different places. During that time, he must have often wished himself to be able to return to his father and make him proud of his son. When he finally got the opportunity, who could blame him for taking it? He was just trying to please his father, which is not so uncommon. And not so negative. True, he was not good as a ruler, for pretending to kill Bran and Rickon was worse than actually killing them. It showed his incompetence. He should have felt fine with his choice of letting them live, if he wanted to. Instead, he displayed how unsure of himself he really was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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