MMA 3:UFC 87 Recap

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote]And while I believe Carano deserves to be the face of female MMA I just wish she got to that position due to her fighting skills rather than her looks.[/quote]

Looks will always be a factor in the marketing of female athletes. Danika Patrick doesn't get to be the female face of racing if she's a hag (or at least until she actually won a race), Anna Kournikova remains some midranked nobody if she wasn't a goddess, and the female world cup soccer winners are forgotten a little bit sooner without the shirt-shedding. But ideally the athletes in question actually deserve to be promoted on their talent and success alone and the looks are only a side benefit. Right now Gina Carano is dominant, entertaining, and undefeated. There is no sport based reason not to keep her headlining the female end of the card. (And maybe a main event down the line if they can establish some serious challengers) That she's also hot makes her that much easier to market.

But while looks are certainly a larger concern for female athletes, its certainly not isolated to them. Kimbo's explosion is as much about his imposing look as it is his knockout power. Shave his beard and you take away half of his marketability. More than enough baseball players benefit from being pretty boys, although they generally have to be all-stars first before anyone notices.

[quote]Baroni is a complete asshole.... and I love him for it. His entrance (hot chicks ripping his clothes off) was the coolest thing I have ever seen. Shame he lost the fight.[/quote]

Actually convinced a few friends to watch this one. (the whole card, not just this one fight) One of them made the comment that if you're gonna walk in effectively 'talking all that shit', you better actually be good.



Curious how this thing did in the ratings. And if they trailed off as the thing ran over by an hour.

[Myshkin]

[quote name='Il Chiarimento' post='1379234' date='Jun 1 2008, 11.24']Looks will always be a factor in the marketing of female athletes. Danika Patrick doesn't get to be the female face of racing if she's a hag (or at least until she actually won a race), Anna Kournikova remains some midranked nobody if she wasn't a goddess, and the female world cup soccer winners are forgotten a little bit sooner without the shirt-shedding. But ideally the athletes in question actually deserve to be promoted on their talent and success alone and the looks are only a side benefit. Right now Gina Carano is dominant, entertaining, and undefeated. There is no sport based reason not to keep her headlining the female end of the card. (And maybe a main event down the line if they can establish some serious challengers) That she's also hot makes her that much easier to market.

But while looks are certainly a larger concern for female athletes, its certainly not isolated to them. Kimbo's explosion is as much about his imposing look as it is his knockout power. Shave his beard and you take away half of his marketability. More than enough baseball players benefit from being pretty boys, although they generally have to be all-stars first before anyone notices.[/quote]
I know, I know. I just wish it weren't that way. A silly wish, a wish never likely to be fulfilled, a wish that goes against all good marketing practices, but there it is.

[Horus Ex Machina]

Pretty point on by Il Chiarimento. Gina has gotten close to the point where she'll no longer need fighting to stay in the limelight. The fact that girls like Danica, Gina or Sharapova choose to stick with thier sports rather than "media darling wastes of space" is a credit to thier dedication to their sports and should be noted.

It should be different, but to the women, they'll take advantage of their looks if that's what they have to do to be recognized as athletes, if that makes any sense.

[quote name='Myshkin' post='1379194' date='Jun 1 2008, 12.15']Phil "New York Badass" Baroni:

Baroni is a complete asshole.... and I love him for it. His entrance (hot chicks ripping his clothes off) was the coolest thing I have ever seen. Shame he lost the fight.[/quote]
I'm just happy that he wasn't being given yet another title shot. Pretty hard to sell when said contender might be .500 if he loses.

[quote name='Il Chiarimento' post='1379234' date='Jun 1 2008, 13.24']Curious how this thing did in the ratings. And if they trailed off as the thing ran over by an hour.[/quote]

[url="http://www.mmapayout.com/2008/06/elitexc-on-cbs-rating-flash.html"]Here are some initial tv numbers from last night. [/url]Demographic numbers got stronger as the night wore on and climaxed with the Kimbo fight. Part of the reason why I agreed with Elite XC's decision to put his fight last. Alot of eyeballs saw Gina, Lawler and Smith than would have if any of them had been on after Kimbo.

[Analu]

Gus Johnson rocks.

The fans booing during the Lawler/Smith fight are complete idiots.

Carano not making weight for the second consecutive time is unprofessional as hell.

Kimbo fight was a train wreck. I don't even know where to begin, so I just won't.

Gary Shaw is a joke and looks like he swallowed a tractor tire. His son looks like a member of N Sync.


The much more lightly promoted WEC card on Versus in a couple hours is going to be 10 times better than last nights card.

[Myshkin]

Anyone see Dana White on Sportscenter right now? He's still a douche bag, but the guy they had him arguing against was even more of a douche bag. And DW didn't miss his opportunity to throw a few not-so-subtle jabs at EliteXC.

[Horus Ex Machina]

[quote name='BJ Penn' post='1379354' date='Jun 1 2008, 17.22']Gus Johnson rocks.[/quote] Big improvement over Goldberg. He could easily replace the other Goldberg too. Smart move by CBS to sack his ass for this show.

[quote name='BJ Penn' post='1379354' date='Jun 1 2008, 17.22']The fans booing during the Lawler/Smith fight are complete idiots.[/quote] What else is new about the fans that go to arenas? People think that the price of of a ticket entitles you to stupidity. Alot of them don't know jack about MMA and get pissed if noones bleeding after two minutes.

[quote name='BJ Penn' post='1379354' date='Jun 1 2008, 17.22']Carano not making weight for the second consecutive time is unprofessional as hell.[/quote] This doesn't bother me as much as some people and I'm not just saying this bc Carano's a chick. For one it wasn't a title fight, so as long as the opponent agrees to the fight, it doesn't affect the way the fight is sanctioned. I came down hard on Lutter for not making weight because the consequences of that are real, ie. the fight cannot go 5 rounds, and a title match is relegated to a meet-weight exhibition which will only give a fighter a win and pride. Also if MMA to pre-fight weigh-ins after the official weigh-ins like some boxing promotions do, you would remember that most fighters don't weigh anything close to what their OWI is. I remember Fernando Vargas defending his title against some trash-talking punk from Buffalo and the guy gained 20 pound after the OWI. Vargas bulked up 10 himself so he didn't have any room to talk
and he still won the fight. Plus there have been so many meet-weight non-title bouts in both boxing and MMA which become little more than between weight class fights, so in the end I can't find any real emotion one way or the other that she didn't weigh in right for a non title fight. She still put out come fight time.


[quote name='BJ Penn' post='1379354' date='Jun 1 2008, 17.22']Kimbo fight was a train wreck. I don't even know where to begin, so I just won't.[/quote]... can't add anything more to that.


[quote name='BJ Penn' post='1379354' date='Jun 1 2008, 17.22']Gary Shaw is a joke and looks like he swallowed a tractor tire. His son looks like a member of N Sync.[/quote]... can't add anything more to that. [i](it's not a good sign that he wants to add more weight classes.)[/i]

[quote name='BJ Penn' post='1379354' date='Jun 1 2008, 17.22']The much more lightly promoted WEC card on Versus in a couple hours is going to be 10 times better than last nights card.[/quote]I'll be interested in Faber/Pulver mainly to see "Little Evil" smack the piss out of that frat boy Faber.

[quote name='Myshkin' post='1379371' date='Jun 1 2008, 17.43']Anyone see Dana White on Sportscenter right now? He's still a douche bag, but the guy they had him arguing against was even more of a douche bag. And DW didn't miss his opportunity to throw a few not-so-subtle jabs at EliteXC.[/quote]
DW vs ESPN's elitist attitudes towards sports they don't cover... I almost don't know who to hate more sometimes. It's gotta be some type of record how quickly they all became NASCAR fans.

[Young Wolf]

Last two fights on WEC made it worth the wait. Torres vs Maeda was awesome.

And now Faber vs Pulver...non stop action. Just awesome.

[quote]I'll be interested in Faber/Pulver mainly to see "Little Evil" smack the piss out of that frat boy Faber.[/quote]

Really didnt happen. Faber really took the fight to Pulver, but Pulver made a good showing by not getting KTFO.

YW

[Horus Ex Machina]

Faber earned alot of my respect going five rounds with Pulver and looking very impressive doing it. Most of my hate for Faber is purely superficial, so I can respect the kid now. Earned even more respect for rocking the corn rows. That caught me off guard, so I guess he's not as preppy as I thought. ;) Pulver was classy as always, and has just seemed incredibly happy with life lately so I'm really happy for him and his new wife.

Not sure whether I really thought Pulver would take this one so much as I wanted him to, but it will be interesting to see where he goes from here. He's pretty much fought everyone now. Maybe Yamamoto, but he's in Japan. A rematch against Faber will probably look the same.

[Analu]

[quote name='Horus - Spider Silva' post='1379444' date='Jun 1 2008, 16.03']This doesn't bother me as much as some people and I'm not just saying this bc Carano's a chick. [...][/quote]
I dunno. I get what you're saying, but it just doesn't sit well with me, and am a little surprised that you're OK with it, Horus. Miss weight once? Fine. But for the second straight time? It smacks of disrespect to me: to her opponent, to the promotion and to the sport in general. Or maybe I'm just being too touchy about it.


[quote]I'll be interested in Faber/Pulver mainly to see "Little Evil" smack the piss out of that frat boy Faber.[/quote]
That was an awesome fight, as was the whole WEC card. The Torres vs Maeda fight was one of the best fights I've seen this year. It had everything an MMA fan could ask for: great standup, slick transitions and submission attempts, etc. I thought Faber was going to roll right thru Pulver, so was surprised by that fight. It was a war. I have to admit, I actually found myself pulling for Jens. Before, when he had his issues with BJ, obviously my biased ass was going to side with BJ, so I felt compelled to hate him. But Jens really does seem like a good guy, and I wish the best for him.

Every fight on that card was solid. Munoz displayed some of the wickedest standing GNP I've ever seen.

About the EliteXC card... I wasn't that disgusted with it. It was entertaining for what it was, and one thing I really liked that Spike and Versus don't do is that CBS didn't cut to commericals during breaks between rounds, so we could hear what the trainers were saying to the fighters.

One thing I want to mention about the Lawler/Smith fight is that I really don't think Robbie's figured it all out yet. Back in his younger days, I loved him for his recklessness, even though it led to some tough losses. But now, he's almost [i]too[/i]patient. He had Smith reeling in the first round with some sweet liver kicks, and I don't know if he thought Smith was just playing possum or what, but didn't go for the kill like he should've done. Color me unimpressed.

[Myshkin]

[quote name='BJ Penn' post='1379633' date='Jun 1 2008, 22.09']I dunno. I get what you're saying, but it just doesn't sit well with me, and am a little surprised that you're OK with it, Horus. Miss weight once? Fine. But for the second straight time? It smacks of disrespect to me: to her opponent, to the promotion and to the sport in general. Or maybe I'm just being too touchy about it.[/quote]
I'm with you on this one. Carano's a great fighter but it does seem like her head's not completely in the game. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I heard that this was the [i]fourth[/i] time she failed to make weight.

[Ser Barry]

[quote name='Benito Dubolini' post='1378989' date='Jun 1 2008, 11.00']Did anyone see Kimbo tap last night? Reason I ask is:

[url="http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=dd-kimbo060108&prov=yhoo&type=lgns"]Yahoo Kimbo Article[/url]

The article also suggests that alot of the fights were called early since it was a network card, they didnt want to "overwhelm" the new or casual viewer with a lot of blood/gore/whatever.

Thoughts?

YW[/quote]

Kimbo did tap on Thompson's shorts but he was tapping to say that he was ok. Confused? So was he. He was tapping and giving the thumbs up. I guess it is all a lot simpler in the boatyard. What pissed me off most about 'The Worst Stoppage I Have Seen For A Long Time' is that Kimbo was half a dozen punches from a legit KO and Thompson was one takedown from a stoppage. Both fighters has given their limited all and it was hanging in the balance as to which way it was going to go. Shit decision.

Lawler v Smith was entertaining. There is no way you can say that Lawler was going to win with Smith's power. I gained a lot of respect for Smith and if he wanted to take the full five minutes then those retards should have let him. 'I can't see now give me a couple more minutes' sounds reasonable to me.

Those two stoppages turned me completely off the production.

Re: Carano and making weight. Absolutely disgraceful and I am pretty shocked that she gets defended by anyone. Unprofessional behaviour which smacks off 'I am the star I can do whatever I like as they can't drop my contract.' There are a ton of other women athletes who are having to excede the standards set by the men just to be taken seriously and there they have the biggest star in their sport making a laughing stock of them. On what grounds does she get a pass? The sport has weight classes. The sport only gets sanctioned because it has weight classes. EliteXC have created a complete weight class for her and she still can't be professional enough to make weight. How many other athletes could be expected to be given a pass for not making weight two fights in a row? How is it any different from Lutter? I didn't hear anyone complaining that Lutter didn't get his title shot. I heard them complaining that it made the sport look bad, it was disrespectful to Silva, it breached the terms of his contract etc.... Again, apart from a pair of tits, how is this any different?

[Young Wolf]

[quote name='BJ Penn' post='1379633' date='Jun 2 2008, 01.09']That was an awesome fight, as was the whole WEC card. The Torres vs Maeda fight was one of the best fights I've seen this year. It had everything an MMA fan could ask for: great standup, slick transitions and submission attempts, etc. I thought Faber was going to roll right thru Pulver, so was surprised by that fight. It was a war. I have to admit, I actually found myself pulling for Jens. Before, when he had his issues with BJ, obviously my biased ass was going to side with BJ, so I felt compelled to hate him. But Jens really does seem like a good guy, and I wish the best for him.

Every fight on that card was solid. Munoz displayed some of the wickedest standing GNP I've ever seen.[/quote]

Id only have to disagree with the part where you said every fight on the card was solid. I found McCullough vs Alexander fight to pretty much suck as there was very little action at all.

I do agree about the Torres/Maeda fight. Double ankle locks while each was driving the heel of their other foot into the other. Just a crazily high paced fight that was entertaining the whole way through.

[Ken Stone]

It looks like EliteXC on CBS was a big ratings success, which is great. I did find this little tidbit though:

"Saturday Night Fights" cleared approximately 95 percent of CBS stations in the country. The telecast was pre-empted in those remaining markets due to coverage of the Children’s Miracle Network Telethon."

I mean, really? There are television producers out there that had to weigh "MMA vs Children's Miracle Network Telethon" and choose wrong? If I would have turned on my CBS afflite and there was a telethon instead of Lawler and Smith ... I would have broken something. The true test for EliteXC will be the second broadcast. They need to at least match the ratings of the first broadcast to really secure the time slot.

Unfortunately I DVR'd the card so I missed the Kimbo fight completely. Sounds like there was some controversy so I'm a little disappointed that I didn't get to see it.

One thing I noticed was that there didn't seem to be a lot of ground work going on. If I knew nothing about MMA I think I would have left with the conclusion that MMA was pretty much kick boxing with smaller gloves.

I loved that Brett Rodgers called out Kimbo at the news conference. I don't really understand Kimbo becoming the face of EliteXC. Kimbo was on Inside MMA and the guy isn't particularly well-spoken, doesn't seem all that intelligent, and comes across as shy and uncomfortable. I've heard people in the past say things like "Kimbo just has that 'it', that star-power" FWIW, that doesn't translate through the TV screen. When I think of star-power I think of Mario. When I think of star-power as it relates to combat sports I think of dynamic, outspoken personalities. Kimbo is the exact opposite.

I was very impressed with Lawler. He's always had power but he looked so much quicker to me than in the past. I also don't remember him using the body kicks so effectively. I'm excited to see Lawler/Smith II.

I thought the Carano/Young fight was stopped to quickly. If Katelyn was male there is no way it would have been stopped.

[Analu]

[quote name='Benito Dubolini' post='1379772' date='Jun 2 2008, 02.36']Id only have to disagree with the part where you said every fight on the card was solid. I found McCullough vs Alexander fight to pretty much suck as there was very little action at all.[/quote]
Oh, well I guess I should sheepishly admit that that was the one fight I missed. But some of my buddies said they thought it was pretty good and since it was Razor Rob, I just assumed it was decent. Stilll, 3 great fights out of 4 makes for a nice card. And I agree about the pure awesomeness of Torres and Maeda when both were going for heel hooks on each other.


[quote name='Ken Stone' post='1379994' date='Jun 2 2008, 05.51']Unfortunately I DVR'd the card so I missed the Kimbo fight completely. Sounds like there was some controversy so I'm a little disappointed that I didn't get to see it.[/quote]
I had to DVR it too, as two straight Saturday evening's of MMA is a no-no in my house. What I always do is extend the time to record by an extra 1/2 hour or so, just in case it runs over.

[quote]One thing I noticed was that there didn't seem to be a lot of ground work going on. If I knew nothing about MMA I think I would have left with the conclusion that MMA was pretty much kick boxing with smaller gloves.[/quote]
I think that the card was purposely stacked with brawlers, with the line of thinking being that your average Joe Blow isn't going to understand what the hell's happening on the ground. If they're willing to boo the Lawler vs Smith fight, they'd go to town at any LNPing. I also wouldn't be surprised if Shaw took them aside and "suggested" that they keep it standing.

[quote]When I think of star-power I think of Mario. When I think of star-power as it relates to combat sports I think of dynamic, outspoken personalities. Kimbo is the exact opposite.[/quote]
Uh, Mario? What, like Super Mario on the Wii? I'm racking my brain trying to think of any other Mario I know who's a star. Mario Lopez? Slater has star power, in your eyes?

[Ken Stone]

Just watched the Kimbo/Thompson fight on YouTube and I got to say ... wow. I'm excited to see how Bas will spin that on Inside MMA next Friday. Thompson had Kimbo on his back in side control and was just laying into him with elbows and the ref stands them up? That was bad but probably forgivable considering the circumstance. However him stopping the fight when Thompson is still on his feet with his hands up? Unbelievable.

[quote name='BJ Penn' post='1380259' date='Jun 2 2008, 12.42']Uh, Mario? What, like Super Mario on the Wii? I'm racking my brain trying to think of any other Mario I know who's a star. Mario Lopez? Slater has star power, in your eyes?[/quote]

Sorry, dumb joke. I was referring to the Nintendo Mario who, after getting star power, is able to crush his enemies underfoot.

[Myshkin]

After 2 days of ESPN licking Kimbo's balls Jim Rome finally lays it down. Trust Romey to be the only guy on ESPN not afraid to speak the truth, and say what we're all thinking.

[Ken Stone]

[quote name='Myshkin' post='1380423' date='Jun 2 2008, 14.41']After 2 days of ESPN licking Kimbo's balls Jim Rome finally lays it down. Trust Romey to be the only guy on ESPN not afraid to speak the truth, and say what we're all thinking.[/quote]

Link?

[Myshkin]

[quote name='Ken Stone' post='1380445' date='Jun 2 2008, 13.55']Link?[/quote]
[url="http://www.jimrome.com/home/articles/article.html"]Romey link one[/url]
[url="http://www.jimrome.com/home/articles/article_2.html"]Romey link two[/url]

In the second link Romey gives props to the Faber/Pulver fight, and talks about how if that fight had headlined the EliteXC/CBS card the night would have been a much bigger success.

[benderschweiz]

Jim Rome's been pretty good about having MMA guys on his show. I know I listened Hendo on there before UFC 82 and he had Jens Pulver on a couple days ago. How has that ESPN MMA show been? Anyone watched?

[Myshkin]

[quote name='benderschweiz' post='1380498' date='Jun 2 2008, 14.43']Jim Rome's been pretty good about having MMA guys on his show. I know I listened Hendo on there before UFC 82 and he had Jens Pulver on a couple days ago. How has that ESPN MMA show been? Anyone watched?[/quote]
I didn't know ESPN had an MMA show. I do know that ESPN's commentators should have at least some knowledge about MMA before they go running their mouths. Unfortunately they don't, and yet run their mouths anyway. Rome seems to be the only guy on that network who knows anything about the subject.