MMA 3:UFC 87 Recap

[Horus Ex Machina]

[quote name='benderschweiz' post='1389057' date='Jun 8 2008, 16.42']Nog's trainer is helping out Mir for this season of TUF as well, though he says he won't train Mir for the actual fight with Nog. The UFC should have tried to get some up and coming Brazilians for this season with so many coaches from there involved. It'd make the house segments more entertaining and bearable too with the cultural dynamics too between English and Brazilian fighters coming into play.[/quote]
That would make it a bit more interesting. Shake things up.

[Oorag]

I think Thiago will be a bigger threat to GSP than Fitch. Fitch seems a little one-dimensional with all his wrestling decisions, and GSP has already shown that you can't out-wrestle him into a victory. Thiago seems more rounded and would also counter GSP's traditional size advantage.

It's good to see Bisping really coming into his own. I was disappointed that Davies couldn't keep his streak going. I was hoping that he'd turn into a contender.

[Ser Barry]

Really great night out on Saturday. By the last few fights the crowd were off their tits drunk for the most part and it was mental in there. Got to high five/chat with Chuck, Stitch, a Fertitta (not sure which one), Ernesto Hoost, Herb,most of the fighters and plenty more I am forgetting.

Could hardly believe that Sanchez was outstriking Hardonk in the first round. Hardonk really has nothing to offer. He beat Sanchez because he had better gas and by the end Sanchez was trying to break H's fist with his jaw. The end of the fight looked just like Homer Simpson's boxing career. They both suck.

Taylor vs Liaudin was competitive but this was a Cage Rage level fight and did not belong in the UFC.

Lambert is an idiot. He was doing ok keeping it tight but he chased Cane across the ring swinging and got clocked. I mean he was nearly at an angle of 45 degrees reaching for his punches. Dumbass.

I missed most of the Caneiro/Burns fight but fair fucks to Burns. It can't be easy working full time and competing at this level.

Matt Wiman is my hand twin. He is also incredibly improved if that performance is any indicator. He was winning on the feet and then was happy to roll on the floor and looked comfortable when he did. Really impressed.

Kampmann showed that he is class and Rivera isn't. The only question coming out of this fight? Is Kendall Grove the worst TUF winner ever?

Really, really poor stoppage of Vera. Not one shot landed cleanly. This is the same ref who allowed Kimbo to take 70+ unanswered shots right? That having been said Vera looked small, flabby and tentative. He was not initiating on the feet and how the hell was he expecting to win any other way? Poor performance and I agree that he should drop in weight.

Nate Marquadt payed highly for one misjudgement, it was a lot clearer on the reply that his knee was down, and one very bad call. The 'illegal' elbow was clearly to the side of the head. Since when do fighters get docked a point for their first transgression in that area any way? Not happy that this was the second fight in a row that was basically decided by the ref. No the ref does not decide on stoppages he just calls the obvious. Dan and Herb decided the outcome of these fights and that is not good.

The crowd were getting a bit flat from those two decisions but for some bizarre reason the Marcus Davis push has worked and Jump Around is like blood to a shark to drunk British people. The place was jumping again only to be put to sleep by the first two rounds of that snoozefest. The third round was basically ignored by the crowd, although it was the best I think, as a Mexican Wave provided the entertainment. Drunk people have short attention spans.

Place went crazy for Bisping. Bisping pwnd Day. Place went crazy again. Nice.

Hughes looked very small compared to earlier in his career. He lacked aggression. Alves looked good but he needs to make weight and win another fight before he gets a title shot. Hughes could lose to Serra at this rate. He really lacked belief. As soon as he missed one takedown attempt he seemed to freeze. Award for hardest high five of the night goes to Alves' trainer who nearly took my hand off with a big grin.

[Oorag]

[quote]Lambert is an idiot. He was doing ok keeping it tight but he chased Cane across the ring swinging and got clocked. I mean he was nearly at an angle of 45 degrees reaching for his punches. Dumbass.[/quote]Yeah, and wasn't that the same thing that got him last time, getting sloppy and getting clocked?

[quote]Kampmann showed that he is class and Rivera isn't. The only question coming out of this fight? Is Kendall Grove the worst TUF winner ever?[/quote]Yeah, I'm looking for more from Kampmann. Any kickboxer who gets submissions has my attention.

[quote]Hughes looked very small compared to earlier in his career. He lacked aggression. Alves looked good but he needs to make weight and win another fight before he gets a title shot. Hughes could lose to Serra at this rate. He really lacked belief. As soon as he missed one takedown attempt he seemed to freeze.[/quote]I think Hughes was only small in comparison to Alves, who is always huge and even huger than normal last night. He's just too one-dimensional for modern MMA. It's ironic, since he was the guy who showed Royce Gracie that a new generation of MMA had arrived. Now he's the dinosaur.

[Ser Barry]

Oorag, I touched him mate. He is nowhere near as wide as he was. Check out his pecs and delts, there is huge size loss there. While I don't think he ever did steroids I do think that he came from the area of sport where diuretic and similar drug use is prevalent and he has reduced hugely in size since drug testing ramped up. I have my doubts about his huge fall from grace. It has been amazing when you look at it.

It might also be worth noting that Chuck is about 6 inches wider across the shoulders than Cro Cop. Cro Cop should step down to 205.

[Oorag]

I don't know. [url="http://www.cdn.sherdog.com/_images/pictures/12/12091.jpg"]Here [/url] is a picture of him at the weigh-in of UFC 52, and [url="http://www.cdn.sherdog.com/_images/pictures/62/61665.jpg"]here[/url] is a picture from the weigh-in at UFC 85. I'm no body-builder, but they look practically identical to me. Is he really that much smaller?

[EHK for Darwin]

Starting to slowly get my friends into MMA and my local BW3's is finally starting to play them. (Saturday's used to be pretty dead there unless there was a big game on. The place was packed wall to wall Saturday and nearly every TV tuned to MMA. I think its a success here) So I just might become a UFC regular. (my friends enjoyed it well enough, and had watched a few fights themselves on VS. mainly. But I don't think they have the makings of a serious, sport and fighter following fans. They just enjoy a good fight here and there, which is fine. But that also means that I won't be catching every UFC)

The fight quality was definitely a step above what I'm used to. I noticed they generally give the fighters more time before a stoppage. Even on the Showtime EliteXC's they appear to be quick on the trigger with those. Guy goes down, other guy pounces, 95% of the time they wave it off. I think I've been seeing the same 3 refs in all these damned fights.

So far, so good. I'll keep browsing this thread to find out what I need to know about upcoming UFC's.

[benderschweiz]

Anyone here giving Fitch a shot against GSP? GSP's past two wins haven't been over top guys, especially after looking at Hughes' performance this past weekend. I only remember two of Fitch's fights (against Wilson and Sanchez) and didn't think he was all that impressive in either. Does Fitch bring anything to the table that Josh Koscheck didn't?

[Analu]

[quote name='benderschweiz' post='1391278' date='Jun 9 2008, 15.56']Anyone here giving Fitch a shot against GSP? GSP's past two wins haven't been over top guys, especially after looking at Hughes' performance this past weekend. I only remember two of Fitch's fights (against Wilson and Sanchez) and didn't think he was all that impressive in either. Does Fitch bring anything to the table that Josh Koscheck didn't?[/quote]
I think he's got a coupla inches on Koscheck and GSP, and I don't think GSP's ever faced a great wrestler who he wasn't bigger then, so I guess Fitch has that going for him. But I think GSP's going to wipe the floor with him. Fitch is a good fighter, but his style bores the shit out of me, and I actually thought he lost to Diego in their fight. A Thiago vs GSP fight would be way more exciting, and he would've been close to earning a title shot, but 4 pounds over? Christ. It's pretty ridiculous for him to be asking for a title shot when he can't even make weight without diuretics, and if I were Dana White, I'd be so disgusted that as added punishment, I'd make him fight and win TWO more times at 170 to prove that he can do it before giving him his shot.


Most of UFC 85 has already been covered but some random thoughts:

Marquardt was clearly the better fighter, but even though that illegal elbow point deduction was questionable, it pretty much evened out when he didn't get penalized for that piledriver at the end. So yeah, he deserved to lose, even though he didn't DESERVE to lose. That make any sense? The piledriver was pretty fucking sweet, though. Brought back awesome memories of my WWF-watching youth.

Wiman surprised the hell out of me. Who knew?


Been hearing rumors that DW's "huge announcement" this Thursday is that he and a group of private investors are buying the UFC from the Fertittas, and that Vince McMahon is one of the investors involved. And that McMahon's New York connections is going to get MMA sanctioned there, and the NYE show will be at MSG, maybe with Penn vs GSP headlining. Not sure how I feel about Vince getting into it. So long as he doesn't add any scripted rivalries or worked fights, I guess I couldn't care less. I just want to see quality MMA fights, no matter which organization or owner puts them on.

[GSP]

I just saw Big John McCarthy on 'After the Bell' and he said the exact same thing about the Marquart fight as you did Bj. The elbow wasn't illegal but the pile driver is what is known as a "spike" and is a clear foul. It was impressive, and I wondered why you don't see that more but I didn't know it was illegal. Makes sence, seems a good way to cause a serious kneck injury.

I think Alves is way more of a threat to GSP than Fitch will be. If (big if) Fitch has superior wrestling abilities to GSP I believe it's more than made up for by GSP's superior striking and submission game. On the other hand, if GSP is able to outwrestle Fitch (which insn't impossible considering results against Hughes and Koscheck) what has Fitch got to offer back? Alves is a crippling striker with apparently greatly improved take down defence. I just think he matches up better with GSP. I still think GSP will come out on top but I'll be more on the edge of my seat for him than against Fitch is my guess.

[Horus Ex Machina]

[quote name='BJ Penn' post='1391369' date='Jun 9 2008, 21.42']Been hearing rumors that DW's "huge announcement" this Thursday is that he and a group of private investors are buying the UFC from the Fertittas, and that Vince McMahon is one of the investors involved. And that McMahon's New York connections is going to get MMA sanctioned there, and the NYE show will be at MSG, maybe with Penn vs GSP headlining. Not sure how I feel about Vince getting into it. So long as he doesn't add any scripted rivalries or worked fights, I guess I couldn't care less. I just want to see quality MMA fights, no matter which organization or owner puts them on.[/quote]
I've been hearing rumors about Vince McMahon buying the UFC for the longest time, but I haven't seen any actual articles from reputable sources to back it up. If this is true then DW and Vince have done a better job keeping this out of ESPN or Yahoo Sports columns than Hillary and Barack did about hiding their secret meeting. I know that Shane McMahon has been interested in buying into MMA for the longest, and with the changing landscape of MMA this woud be a good time for DW to get out.

[Ser Barry]

[quote name='Oorag' post='1390824' date='Jun 9 2008, 21.54']I don't know. [url="http://www.cdn.sherdog.com/_images/pictures/12/12091.jpg"]Here [/url] is a picture of him at the weigh-in of UFC 52, and [url="http://www.cdn.sherdog.com/_images/pictures/62/61665.jpg"]here[/url] is a picture from the weigh-in at UFC 85. I'm no body-builder, but they look practically identical to me. Is he really that much smaller?[/quote]

In the 52 pic he has a frame which looks like he has cut a lot of weight and will fill out a lot in the lead up to the fight. Does that make sense? I would like to see pics from the two fights and compare them. I bet Hughes put on way more weight for the earlier fight.

If Vince buys part of UFC then imagine how crazy the foil hats will go. Herb Dean bought by Steve Austin to early stop Clay Guida to set up a triple bikini match between Butterbean, Mo Smith and Colin Robinson. MMA forums are full of enough shit as it is I really don't think they need the fuel.

John Fitch was a beast. Hyper aggressive and dominant until he won 3 in a row in the UFC and since then he has been protecting his record and waiting for his title shot. His problem is that he has been fighting defensively for over a year now and will that aggression still be there when he flicks the switch? I hope so. An aggressive Fitch causes GSP problems. I reckon this is 70/30 to GSP.

All Marquadt needed to do to seal his legacy as an MMA legend after that move was roll his eyes back and put Leites in a coffin. Awesome.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote]I've been hearing rumors about Vince McMahon buying the UFC for the longest time, but I haven't seen any actual articles from reputable sources to back it up. If this is true then DW and Vince have done a better job keeping this out of ESPN or Yahoo Sports columns than Hillary and Barack did about hiding their secret meeting. I know that Shane McMahon has been interested in buying into MMA for the longest, and with the changing landscape of MMA this woud be a good time for DW to get out.[/quote]

On the one hand, I say keep him the hell away from the sport. Cause even if he acts like a legit business man instead of the ring master for a farcical freak show, it'd be impossible to avoid the appearance of impropriety. This is Vince fricken McMahon we're talking about. He's made an absurd caricature of himself, which may work fine for WWE storylines, but it damn sure makes him and anything he produces hard to take seriously.

On the other hand, is it any more ridiculous than Don King in boxing? Than again, boxing was established enough that it could survive 50 years of the mafia fixing half the fights and Don King having sanctioning bodies in his back pocket. Don't know what this would do for the credibility of UFC.

[Ken Stone]

Just read an interview on SI with Matt Hughes.

[url="http://www.sportsillustrated.com/2008/writers/josh_gross/06/06/qa.0606/index.html"]Josh Gross Interviews Matt Hughes[/url]


"Gross: What's driving you to continue fighting?

Hughes: That's what I do. I'm a fighter, and I'm not really concerned with retirement right now. It hasn't really crossed my mind that much. I've got two more fights left on this contract, and for sure I'll fight these two fights out and probably do more of that. [b]I've always had the idea of bumping up to 185 to face Anderson [Silva].[/b] So if I win these next two fights, there's a chance I will bump up."

:stunned:

Maybe retirement would be the better option, Matt.

[Horus Ex Machina]

[quote name='Il Chiarimento' post='1391815' date='Jun 10 2008, 06.56']On the one hand, I say keep him the hell away from the sport. Cause even if he acts like a legit business man instead of the ring master for a farcical freak show, it'd be impossible to avoid the appearance of impropriety. This is Vince fricken McMahon we're talking about. He's made an absurd caricature of himself, which may work fine for WWE storylines, but it damn sure makes him and anything he produces hard to take seriously.

On the other hand, is it any more ridiculous than Don King in boxing? Than again, boxing was established enough that it could survive 50 years of the mafia fixing half the fights and Don King having sanctioning bodies in his back pocket. Don't know what this would do for the credibility of UFC.[/quote]
Don't put me in the camp that wants VM in MMA. My problem with DW is that he often runs a legit sport like sports entertainment and is more concerned with building the brand than the sport. Bringing in VM will likely not help, not just perception-wise, but his view of what MMA should be would likely be similar to DW's and therefore not mine.

But I wanted to make a point that there are signs that DW is looking to get out with the Fertitas. I don't know about you, but I don't see DW and the Fertittas still being this hands on in the sport like Red Auerbach. I think that they will eventually divest interest, but I think that they will do it by defying their previous stance and taking the company public while pushing to keep DW on as president. They stand to make alot more by going that route.

[quote name='Ken Stone' post='1392023' date='Jun 10 2008, 09.47']Just read an interview on SI with Matt Hughes.

[url="http://www.sportsillustrated.com/2008/writers/josh_gross/06/06/qa.0606/index.html"]Josh Gross Interviews Matt Hughes[/url]


"Gross: What's driving you to continue fighting?

Hughes: That's what I do. I'm a fighter, and I'm not really concerned with retirement right now. It hasn't really crossed my mind that much. I've got two more fights left on this contract, and for sure I'll fight these two fights out and probably do more of that. [b]I've always had the idea of bumping up to 185 to face Anderson [Silva].[/b] So if I win these next two fights, there's a chance I will bump up."

:stunned:

Maybe retirement would be the better option, Matt.[/quote]
I'm shocked that he's still considering fighting Anderson, especially seeing what happened against Alves. This should be a mini-preview of what fighting Silva will be like. I always thought that Silva would beat Hughes pretty easily and I'm even more certain of it by watching the way that Silva beat Hendo (wrestling) and Alves (MT,knees) beat Hughes. Hughes is way too small to beat Silva, first of all. Hughes likes to claim that he can make a 220 lb man feel weak, and while that may be true, against another skilled fighter, you can throw that out the window. And I can't say enough about how hard it is for a shorter man to control a taller man on the ground. Especially a taller, heavier man. Hughes will get destroyed if he tries this.

[Analu]

[quote name='GSP' post='1391586' date='Jun 9 2008, 20.14']I just saw Big John McCarthy on 'After the Bell' and he said the exact same thing about the Marquart fight as you did Bj. The elbow wasn't illegal but the pile driver is what is known as a "spike" and is a clear foul. It was impressive, and I wondered why you don't see that more but I didn't know it was illegal. Makes sence, seems a good way to cause a serious kneck injury.[/quote]
Yeah, there was a pretty heated debate about whether it was illegal or not while we were watching it, and finally we just looked it up in the UFC rulebook. I didn't know BJM had an MMA show called "After the Bell". Wonder if that's just a Canadian TV thing (I'm assuming you're in Canada based off your GSP handle), or if I can watch it somewhere here?


[quote name='Horus - Spider Silva' post='1391607' date='Jun 9 2008, 20.37']I've been hearing rumors about Vince McMahon buying the UFC for the longest time, but I haven't seen any actual articles from reputable sources to back it up. If this is true then DW and Vince have done a better job keeping this out of ESPN or Yahoo Sports columns than Hillary and Barack did about hiding their secret meeting. I know that Shane McMahon has been interested in buying into MMA for the longest, and with the changing landscape of MMA this woud be a good time for DW to get out.[/quote]
I guess I should've noted that it's a totally unsubstantiated rumor and not based in any credible sources whatsoever. On the message board that I have with my family and friends, one of them said he heard the rumor from an MMA message board (no, not Sherdog he said; that place has turned into the biggest tard site on the web). And he strung together a few facts that made it seem plausible. But it could be totally off base or maybe he was just playing a prank, I dunno. I actually figured the announcement was going to be a network TV deal. Anyways, just doing my part to share in the viral reporting.


And I think the above Hughes interview is before he fought Thiago, which makes him calling out Anderson seem a little less ridiculous. After what transpired Saturday, even Hughes isn't delusional enough to mention himself with Anderson, and if he is, hopefully DW will talk him down off that ledge.

[Ser Barry]

[quote name='Horus - Spider Silva' post='1392218' date='Jun 10 2008, 17.44']And I can't say enough about how hard it is for a shorter man to control a taller man on the ground. Especially a taller, heavier man. Hughes will get destroyed if he tries this.[/quote]

As a shorter man, comparatively, why is this the case Horus?

[Oorag]

[quote name='BJ Penn' post='1392357' date='Jun 10 2008, 11.23']And I think the above Hughes interview is before he fought Thiago, which makes him calling out Anderson seem a little less ridiculous. After what transpired Saturday, even Hughes isn't delusional enough to mention himself with Anderson, and if he is, hopefully DW will talk him down off that ledge.[/quote]
Yeah, if he's talking about two upcoming fights, that would be Alves and Serra. Hughes versus Silva would just be sad, and a terrible way for him to cement his legacy. He's got to remember that he's only 34 and he's going to need to cash in on his name for a very long time to support his family. He can't afford to humiliate himself in the twilight of his career.

[Ser Barry]

I think that Matt Hughes will be ok. The nostalgia for him is always going to be strong. He went 18 - 1 there over a few years and was the most dominant UFC champion of his time. Of course if he fights Silva then he probably won't be able to remember any of that.

[Ken Stone]

[quote name='Oorag' post='1392571' date='Jun 10 2008, 14.43']Yeah, if he's talking about two upcoming fights, that would be Alves and Serra. Hughes versus Silva would just be sad, and a terrible way for him to cement his legacy. He's got to remember that he's only 34 and he's going to need to cash in on his name for a very long time to support his family. He can't afford to humiliate himself in the twilight of his career.[/quote]

In the interview Hughes mentioned that GSP was so good because he was able to mix striking and wrestling together so effectively. In Hughes ego-riddled mind that probably translated to GSP can beat me, but only GSP. It looks like Hughes figured he would dominate Alves since Alves is the type of fighter (good striker but questionable ground skillz) that he has been beating up his whole career. Since Silva has shown that he can also be taken down Hughes probably figured that he would have the advantage in that fight also.