[ADWD SPOILERS] Where do whores go?

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Uh, Tyrion did not rape her. No way, no how. He was still married at that time, and spousal rape is not a valid concept back then.

The presumption of a wife's consent is what we in the law biz call a "legal fiction," and basically it means that in places where that presumption is law, the powers that be won't prosecute a husband for raping his wife. It does not mean that she wasn't raped in fact.

Thank you. "Where do whores go?" has become one of the most annoying phrases in the series to me. As Jaime finally reveals in ASOS:

Tysha. Was. NOT. A. Whore.

Sounds like unresolved daddy issues to me. But hell yeah, it's repetition was annoying and, as used by Tyrion, abusive.

As to theories about the Sailor's Wife and Lanna: Tysha was gang raped, how would she, or Tyrion, or anyone else in the world of asoiaf determine whether any child she delivered 9 months hence was his?

And in previous books he thought about Tysha all the time. But in ADWD he doesn't think about Tysha half as much, and Penny becomes the first woman he's ever met who he doesn't want to have sex with. She's the first woman where he doesn't get indignant when he realises she doesn't want him either.

And from his interactions Penny, I hope he gets a clue why many women don't want to have sex with him, in particular, that group comprised of barely nubile, exceedingly beautiful, eminently noble, naive 12-year-old virgins whose families have been massacred by his family. I still haven't recovered from all of his whining about (1) the unlikelihood of him finding a happy marriage with woman who loves him for his good qualities, his inner beauty, as it were, and (2) Sansa's polite-but-chilly attitude in ASOS. Whenever I read a post proposing a happy married ending for Tyrion and Sansa, my skin crawls. The geek getting the beauty may be someone's fantasy, but it isn't mine.

Before he murdered Shea I would have said that of course he, as much as any man of any size, regardless of hideous mutilation, deserves a happy marriage with woman who loves him for his good qualities. Because of course we know how much men love women for their good qualities, regardless of appearance. But after Shea's murder and his subsequent abuse of women, I think celibacy and a vow of silence are all Tyrion deserves.

[Nightstar]

Let's all pity the self pitying gang rapist? If GRRM does a meet-up, she should kill him. A real out of the blue casual murder

I think so! It would serve Tyrion right to die at Tysha's hands. :thumbsdown:

I hope that happens at the end of the series!

[Ygritte's fur]

i always wondered about that. surely everyone deserves love but tyrion is described as being considered so grotesque in the eyes of the westerosi that the only ones interested (lolly's mother and shae, for starters) are interested in his coin more than his heart.

penny wasn't meant to be a love interest but a mirror. she was meant to be tyrion's brienne and help him find humility and his better qualities.

as for why the phrase is repeated so often, its meant to parallel jaime's recurring thought: "she slept with lancel, the kettlebacks and probably moonboy!" in a feast for crows (paraphrasing as i don't remember the exact quote)

Agreed.

[TheEvilKing]

I think Pretty Meris could be Tysha.

[ambyr]

I think Pretty Meris could be Tysha.

Huh. Because of the "raped around the company" line? Now that would be an interesting twist.

[Ten Towers]

The presumption of a wife's consent is what we in the law biz call a "legal fiction," and basically it means that in places where that presumption is law, the powers that be won't prosecute a husband for raping his wife. It does not mean that she wasn't raped in fact.

By the modern concept of rape and modern law, yes. But there is a -long- legal history of rape and in 15th century Europe (which Westeros is modeled after, more or less) the concept was very different than it was today. In medieval law rape, as a crime, was about property. The Latin term used in the legal language had a meaning closer to 'kidnapping.' The crime had to do with the theft or unlawful use of a father/husband/other-male-relative's property rather than consent or the lack thereof. If you tried to talk to someone from the middle ages who knew anything about law about a husband raping a wife (or anyone raping a prostitute for that matter) you would probably get laughed at. Is it horrible and misogynistic? Yes. But it was the law of the time.

Of course, Martin doesn't publish assizes and dooms in his appendices, so we really don't know what the law is in Westeros. I am guessing, however, that it is closer to 15th century English law than to 21st century American law.

[Aelinor]

If the point is about legality, sure. However if the point is about her feelings toward Tyrion, then no. He stood by and watched as she was physically violated, and then had his way with her. Emotionally, regardless of the legality at the time, that was rape

[Dreamlife]

Wow, I had no idea there were theories about Tysha. To be honest, I assumed she died after her ordeal. I found it irritating every time Tyrion asked that question in ADWD, but if Tysha is alive and is in fact the Sailor's Wife it makes sense why that line was thrown around so many times.

[Ten Towers]

If the point is about legality, sure. However if the point is about her feelings toward Tyrion, then no. He stood by and watched as she was physically violated, and then had his way with her. Emotionally, regardless of the legality at the time, that was rape

I was responding to a statement regarding legality. If Tysha is still alive I don't doubt that the experience was horrid and traumatizing and in every way was a rape in the modern sense.

[MojoJojo]

I wonder who Tyrion is legally married to at this point? If he came back with Tysha in tow, would anyone even recognize them as legally married? Only person I can think who would confirm his story would be Jaime. Even if the story is accepted, his first marriage was dissolved. Barring an intercession by the High Septon or a Council of the Faith, his marriage to Sansa seems to be the one which counts. The fact that Tyrion is still alive has got to be a major fly in Little Fingers vaseline, since he is clearly trying to marry Sansa off under the assumption that he is dead.

[Ten Towers]

I wonder who Tyrion is legally married to at this point? If he came back with Tysha in tow, would anyone even recognize them as legally married? Only person I can think who would confirm his story would be Jaime. Even if the story is accepted, his first marriage was dissolved. Barring an intercession by the High Septon or a Council of the Faith, his marriage to Sansa seems to be the one which counts. The fact that Tyrion is still alive has got to be a major fly in Little Fingers vaseline, since he is clearly trying to marry Sansa off under the assumption that he is dead.

Tyrion's marriage to Sansa was never consumated,so it can be set aside by the High Septon. Tyrion's marriage to Tysha likely isn't legal since he was not yet 'a man grown' and thus not able to give his consent.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Tyrion's marriage to Sansa was never consumated,so it can be set aside by the High Septon.

But wouldn't Sansa have to show up for the trial? This if of course impossible as long, as Lannisters rule King's Landing, and I am not sure such thing can be done in absentia - especially with the current High Septon.

[coppertongue]

So I went around town today asking "where do whores go?". A lot of people ignored me, others told me to fuck off, some told me to go to "Lamar ave" or "Brooks", some told me to check backpage and I'm all like "to which book". All in all a useless day, maybe Tyrion will have better luck.

[Ten Towers]

But wouldn't Sansa have to show up for the trial? This if of course impossible as long, as Lannisters rule King's Landing, and I am not sure such thing can be done in absentia - especially with the current High Septon.

Honestly, not sure it's a trial. Might be as easy as writing a document that says "The marriage of so and so and so and so is hearby annuled for reason of X" and signing it. But yes, the current High Sparrow might make that process difficult for Littlefinger.

[Lord Damian]

Whores go where the money is.

[Ethan Dirtch]

I thought we've been through this and that there were some pretty strong reasons for the Sailor's Wife NOT being Tysha?

I'd actually like to see this thread! ~goes digging~

That seemed like an editorial oversight. She has the exact same thought about Daario and Hizdahr... wtf?

Well, my interpretation of it is that with Daario, it was genuine passion; with Hizdahr, it was plain frustration, both with her husband and with the state of affairs in her city. She wanted to feel *something*.

Question. What became of the whore that became Tywins fathers mistress? We know that he marched her naked through the streets to the docks but where did that whore go?

She remained untouched, friendless, and homeless is all I can recall...I don't think they ever mentioned where she went specifically.

I'm inclined to think rape is still a crime in Westeros. It's just that it's up to the law to interpret it.

The problem is, Tywin Lannister is the law in his lands.

Yeah. A lot of places will simply ignore rape (especially when dealing with smallfolk victims), while others, such as the Starks, or Stannis Baratheon (he gelded some of his own men who attempted to rape wildling women) would take the offense much more seriously.

[Noctame]

Whether or not Tysha is alive is important because if she's alive - Tyrion's marriage to Sansa Stark is invalid.

And now that I'm considering options for Tysha - Wouldn't it just be delightful if she had joined the Sept and the High Sept caught wind that Tyrion was a bigomist XD....

Anyhoozles, just a thought. Tysha could very well be serving her gods. And could erupt from the shadows at a very inopportune time. Or Littlefinger could be aware of her - he does have his ways, and produce her in the event Tyrion tries to rescue Sansa from his diabolic plotting.

[Darth Dragonstone]

He will never find Tysha, and the question is rhetorical, he's not actually looking for her.

I think Tysha and the "wherever whores go" comment are repeated because they are central to understanding Tyrion.

The Tysha incident impressed upon Tyrion at an early age that he would not likely ever find anyone who would love him for who he is, only for his money or name. That taught him he could count on no one, that he must live by his wits, and to actually avoid emotional attachment. That in turn sharpened his sense of perception and reasoning, but there remains a little hole in his soul that only love can fill.

All of that is to say I think it's a coin flip whether we see Tyrion find Tysha. Finding someone who can love him for who he is will be far more important to character development and the story.

[pow]

They go where the gold is. I think this is obvious.

[Ethan Dirtch]

Ya know, I never answered the question at the heart of this: do I want to see Tysha back on the chess board?

It's tough...on the one hand, I want the closure. Closure is nice, it's final. Closure could be anything from briefly glimpsing an older Tysha from just around the corner and not going over to say anything, to being told conclusively by a source that had no reason for lying that she was indeed dead and in the ground in a marked grave, or even in a letter that addresses master Tyrion.

On the other hand, it's not necessary for the main plot, for even Tyrion's plot, for them to actually ever meet.

As with most everyone else, I would hate them to meet up, run into each others' arms in a tender embrace followed by sweet longing kisses...unless that scene is promptly followed by someone getting a crossbow bolt in the chest.