[ADWD SPOILERS] Where do whores go?

[BrainFireBob]

Given the topic title, I have been suffering a burning need to supply:

Not Volantis, not even the whorehouses

Not Astaphor

Not Pentos

Not the Sorrows

Not King's Landing

Not Casterly Rock

Not the Eyrie

[gedo]

The sailor's wife will save a life of a certain faceless-girl-apparentice by an accident. And the faceless-girl offer her a death for a life. The chapter will end with the sailor's wife whispering the name "Tyrion Lannister".

[Darth Dragonstone]

The sailor's wife will save a life of a certain faceless-girl-apparentice by an accident. And the faceless-girl offer her a death for a life. The chapter will end with the sailor's wife whispering the name "Tyrion Lannister".

outstanding!

[Tyrion's Wench]

I do pity Tyrion regarding Tysha. He was raised by a monster and did a monstrous thing when he was very young to the one woman who truly loved him. That said if she is a crazy murderous whore living somewhere out there... it WOULD be kind of fitting, kind of cathartic for her to kill him. Tragic.

The sailor's wife will save a life of a certain faceless-girl-apparentice by an accident. And the faceless-girl offer her a death for a life. The chapter will end with the sailor's wife whispering the name "Tyrion Lannister".

This would be so awesome.

[Tysha's] story has always been less about HER, and about Tyrion not being able to get past what he did to her, get past his issues with sex and women.

And in previous books he thought about Tysha all the time. But in ADWD he doesn't think about Tysha half as much, and Penny becomes the first woman he's ever met who he doesn't want to have sex with. She's the first woman where he doesn't get indignant when he realises she doesn't want him either.

For the first time, he ends up having a platonic friendship with a grown woman that is protective and compassionate. And whilst she drives him up the wall with her neediness, clinginess and naivete, he is frustrated mainly because she needs to toughen up in the dangerous situation they're in. When he worries at the end that she might be getting sick, his first thought is that he would have to hide her, to keep her safe from the other 2nd Sons who would kick her out to die. This is a relationship in which sex has no part whatsoever, and it's a first for him. And he's doing OK at it.

So whilst we've been assuming up to now that Tyrion would HAVE to meet Tysha to grow and evolve and put his women issues to rest, maybe he doesn't? Maybe Penny is helping him discover that?

Great post. I really enjoyed Tyrion's relationship with Penny. I love this interpretation of it.

Why would he look for Tysha or find her "wherever whores go" -- being gang-raped didn't turn her into a whore, did it? That's just something cruel Tywin said to make one last dig at Tyrion.

THANK YOU! If I were going to have a happily ever after regarding Tysha it would be that she DIDN'T become a whore but that she ran a reputable inn or had a family on a small farm or something. She seemed content with the simple life. There was another post suggesting that she became a septa or one of the silent sisters. That would be a peaceful way for her to come to terms with the horror and heal physically and spiritually.

She's in an unmarked grave in or near Lannisport.

That's a pretty traumatic incident we're talking about here. An alone and dishonored female in a medieval setting that's just been through something like that? I can't see her lasting too long.

This is pretty much what I figured. Being gang raped by that many people on top of the betrayal at the hands of her husband who originally saved her from a gang rape... that would be difficult to heal from. Even if she didn't die from the physical abuse... the emotional trauma...

He will never find Tysha, and the question is rhetorical, he's not actually looking for her.

I don't think he's really looking for her either. He's haunted.

i always wondered about that. surely everyone deserves love but tyrion is described as being considered so grotesque in the eyes of the westerosi that the only ones interested (lolly's mother and shae, for starters) are interested in his coin more than his heart.

penny wasn't meant to be a love interest but a mirror. she was meant to be tyrion's brienne and help him find humility and his better qualities.

as for why the phrase is repeated so often, its meant to parallel jaime's recurring thought: "she slept with lancel, the kettlebacks and probably moonboy!" in a feast for crows (paraphrasing as i don't remember the exact quote)

Yes! I love the parallels between Jaime and Tyrion; Tyrion's confessions parallel Jaime's betrayal and confession in a way and now the way that they are haunted by the repeated phrase...

I think that when Tyrion asks himself "where do whores go?" he means it in a metaphysical way, not as a real question with a real location as an answer.

One place whores go is a cold, isolated and desolate place behind a huge wall - a place where nothing truly touches them, and they don't really give a damn about anyone, a place where love doesn't matter if it even exists at all, a place where loneliness doesn't hurt and you no longer see your ugly reflection in other peoples eyes. And thats where Tyrion wants to be.

Another place where whore's go is increasingly dark, self destructive and dangerous place on a downward spiral to a nasty end ... and thats where Tyrion thinks he deserves to be.

But ultimately it's where did Tywin send Tysha - and he sent her to hell. And Tywin doesn't need to send Tyrion to hell ... he's already there.

BEAUTIFUL post! I love this idea. The phrase really effected me emotionally and echoed Tysha's pain and Tyrion's reflected pain in hindsight. So wow! I really love your interpretation of it all.

Whether or not Tysha is alive is important because if she's alive - Tyrion's marriage to Sansa Stark is invalid.

And now that I'm considering options for Tysha - Wouldn't it just be delightful if she had joined the Sept and the High Sept caught wind that Tyrion was a bigomist XD....

Anyhoozles, just a thought. Tysha could very well be serving her gods. And could erupt from the shadows at a very inopportune time. Or Littlefinger could be aware of her - he does have his ways, and produce her in the event Tyrion tries to rescue Sansa from his diabolic plotting.

I really think it's possible that Tysha could be one of the silent sisters or one of the servants of the many faced god. If Littlefinger produces her though I'll have to declare him a god, no matter what GRRM says about us never getting to meet them. LOL!

I think Tysha and the "wherever whores go" comment are repeated because they are central to understanding Tyrion.

The Tysha incident impressed upon Tyrion at an early age that he would not likely ever find anyone who would love him for who he is, only for his money or name. That taught him he could count on no one, that he must live by his wits, and to actually avoid emotional attachment. That in turn sharpened his sense of perception and reasoning, but there remains a little hole in his soul that only love can fill.

All of that is to say I think it's a coin flip whether we see Tyrion find Tysha. Finding someone who can love him for who he is will be far more important to character development and the story.

I really like what you say about the way Tysha has shaped who he is. I always though of it in terms of his whoring and ... the belief that no one could love him. But you're right that... that huge rejection is what caused him to become such a scholar, to hone his wit.

I hope that Tyrion can find unconditional love. I think maybe Tysha was it for him romantically. Jaime was the closest he's had to it apart from Tysha... and that uncle of his who taught him acrobatics.

Ya know, I never answered the question at the heart of this: do I want to see Tysha back on the chess board?

It's tough...on the one hand, I want the closure. Closure is nice, it's final. Closure could be anything from briefly glimpsing an older Tysha from just around the corner and not going over to say anything, to being told conclusively by a source that had no reason for lying that she was indeed dead and in the ground in a marked grave, or even in a letter that addresses master Tyrion.

On the other hand, it's not necessary for the main plot, for even Tyrion's plot, for them to actually ever meet.

As with most everyone else, I would hate them to meet up, run into each others' arms in a tender embrace followed by sweet longing kisses...unless that scene is promptly followed by someone getting a crossbow bolt in the chest.

Yes! I want closure for Tyrion regarding Tysha as well, however it comes. I don't think he necessarily needs to meet her to find closure.

[Sun]

I agree with other posters who suggested that Tysha is either dead or a silent sister. The trauma of being gang raped by an entire barracks with the tacit approval of a a beloved husband and then paid for it like a whore is not one that a young girl, or even a grown woman, is likely to survive psychologically. I certainly wouldn't. The horror of such an experience can not be underestimated, imo.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

By the modern concept of rape and modern law, yes. But there is a -long- legal history of rape and in 15th century Europe (which Westeros is modeled after, more or less) the concept was very different than it was today. In medieval law rape, as a crime, was about property. The Latin term used in the legal language had a meaning closer to 'kidnapping.' The crime had to do with the theft or unlawful use of a father/husband/other-male-relative's property rather than consent or the lack thereof. If you tried to talk to someone from the middle ages who knew anything about law about a husband raping a wife (or anyone raping a prostitute for that matter) you would probably get laughed at. Is it horrible and misogynistic? Yes. But it was the law of the time.

Of course, Martin doesn't publish assizes and dooms in his appendices, so we really don't know what the law is in Westeros. I am guessing, however, that it is closer to 15th century English law than to 21st century American law.

Whatever the time period, there is still a distinction between law and fact. The book tells the story of a woman who was forced to submit to multiple acts of involuntary sexual intercourse involving the likelihood of serious physical and psychological injury or death. It's safe to assume that Tysha was traumatized by incident. So whether she is considered chattel or just legally incompetent under the law of the time, she experienced what modern readers would call rape. How else would you describe what happened to her? What other term applies?

Interesting that Tyrion never describes her reaction when Guardsman No. 25 rolls off her and he climbs on. Self-absorbed prick.

[Dracerion]

Tywin took shae after tyrion, so he also probably took tysha as well. on another note jamie and cersi are aerys children. this is why they are prone to incest and why tywin sister said tyrion is truley his fathers son because jamie is not. This sets jamie up to be one of the heads of the dragon.

[Wouter]

And from his interactions Penny, I hope he gets a clue why many women don't want to have sex with him, in particular, that group comprised of barely nubile, exceedingly beautiful, eminently noble, naive 12-year-old virgins whose families have been massacred by his family. I still haven't recovered from all of his whining about (1) the unlikelihood of him finding a happy marriage with woman who loves him for his good qualities, his inner beauty, as it were, and (2) Sansa's polite-but-chilly attitude in ASOS. Whenever I read a post proposing a happy married ending for Tyrion and Sansa, my skin crawls. The geek getting the beauty may be someone's fantasy, but it isn't mine.

Tyrion was very dark in ADWD, and particularly in Pentos and Selhorys he behaved nastily. Since Sansa won't have an easy time getting out of this marriage (I would prefer dealing with Tyrion over dealing with the High Septon if I were in her place, I think, given the way that man thinks about "wicked" ladies), for her sake I hope Tyrion gets softened by Penny and by events and finally comes to see he is the one who has been "false", not Sansa.

Before he murdered Shea I would have said that of course he, as much as any man of any size, regardless of hideous mutilation, deserves a happy marriage with woman who loves him for his good qualities. Because of course we know how much men love women for their good qualities, regardless of appearance. But after Shea's murder and his subsequent abuse of women, I think celibacy and a vow of silence are all Tyrion deserves.

Why is Shae's murder so particularly bad that Tyrion would deserve such a punishment over that? IMO, what he did to Tysha (though he was young and manipulated grossly himself by Tywin and Jaime) and Sansa (forced marriage making her a Lannister, of which he informed her about 30 seconds beforehand and then even expected her to cooperate with a smile) is far worse, what he did to Illyrio's slave girl in Pentos was worse (though he didn't make good on his threats, at least) and also what he did to that poor abused girl in Selhorys was worse - especially that he took her again after he had realised what kind of state she was in. And he also shot Tywin, why is the murder of Shae worse?

Shae seems to be seen as an innocent by some on this forum, but she is not. Her testimony, her lies at Tyrion's trial condemned him to die, and while she was at it she also made sure to condemn Sansa as well (she explicitly mentioned that Sansa and Tyrion had plotted it together). That alone already makes Tyrion's retaliation understandable - she tried to get him (and Sansa) killed, with words no less lethal than the chain Tyrion used to strangle her. That she chose to also effectively twist the knife with her "giant of Lannister" is also relevant because not only was this meant to humiliate Tyrion on top of killing him (Shae had a bit of sadism in here, apparently, Tyrion is not the only one with a dark streak here), but it shows she went way further than anything Cersei could have forced from her. If Cersei even forced her to testify against Tyrion at all, since the other maid (Brella) didn't testify against Sansa and Tyrion in the same way, and apparently Shae had a deal with her that involved getting or keeping jewelry.

Yes, Tyrion could not expect undying love from Shae as she was a whore he hired. Yes, he didn't always treat her very well. But overall, she seemed more than happy to stay with him - unlike Sansa, unlike that girl with the scarred back and the dead eyes in Velhorys, unlike Tysha after Tywin did what he did. And while Tyrion could not expect her to really be true to him, Shae in turn could hardly expect mercy from Tyrion after she showed none at his trial.

I think Pretty Meris could be Tysha.

Now that's an original and IMO good idea. She was "raped around the company" (but not the actual sellsword company she is in at that time). Her eyes are said to be "dead". This is a damaged and disturbed woman, and being a torturer could be a way to get back at men, especially soldiers/men-at-arms (the one likely to be "sharply interrogated" by the company). With the money she got after the rape, she could have decided to get as far from the Lannisters as possible and it may have helped to get accepted with the sellswords somehow. Not that it is particularly likely, but if Tysha is someone named in the story Meris seems way more likely than the whore in Braavos, who does not seem to be emotionally damaged at all (and Tysha was not a whore anyway, nor exactly "inspired" to become one given what happened to her). Especially since Tyrion might well get to meet her, not necessarily in a pleasant way for him as she would recognise him, she was supposed to go to Meereen undercover and they are on different sides in the war.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Why is Shae's murder so particularly bad that Tyrion would deserve such a punishment over that?

Because he committed murder and that's generally considered a big no-no? And yes, Tyrion did lots of other bad things, but when I wrote that post I was thinking his marriage to Sansa and how some posters see them living happily ever after, and wondering why anyone would want her to reunite with a man who murdered a woman in a fit of rage? Sansa is, after all, a prize in many respects.

As to the punishment: Tywin said that Tyrion would have been sent to the wall. Members of the Night's Watch take a vow of celibacy, not that they keep it, and being sent to the Wall is considered better than many other punishments Westeros has to mete out. Tyrion is a regicide, kinslayer, and run-of-the-mill murderer, so for him a sentence of celibacy and silence is pretty light.

[Wouter]

Because he committed murder and that's generally considered a big no-no? And yes, Tyrion did lots of other bad things, but when I wrote that post I was thinking his marriage to Sansa and how some posters see them living happily ever after, and wondering why anyone would want her to reunite with a man who murdered a woman in a fit of rage? Sansa is, after all, a prize in many respects.

Killing Shae was a so-called "passionate crime" I agree, but "a fit of rage" is a bit inappropriate to describe it - he did not murder Shae because he discovered she slept with another (a la Victarion) or because she had displeased him in some way. He murdered her because she had given false evidence to convict him, de-facto convicted his wife along with him (and one good thing that can be said about Tyrion is that he did everything to attempt to keep Sansa out of this, starting with getting rid of the poisoned wine), gave him some extra humiliation for good measure and then slept with the man who had condemnded him to die. He had very good reasons to kill her right then and there, just as he had good reasons to kill Tywin and to kill that singer way before that. Tyrion has killed quite a lot actually, also in battle, but not without provocation.

I think people may not fully understand just what Shae did while giving evidence - she was effectively stabbing him with a knife in his guts and then twisting. This was a serious life-or-death matter, and nor Shae nor Tyrion knew Varys would arrange a rescue for him. Shae was killing Tyrion and she knew it, she was framing Sansa and she knew it. She was not innocent, and in the end she got treated by Tyrion as she had treated him.

As to the punishment: Tywin said that Tyrion would have been sent to the wall. Members of the Night's Watch take a vow of celibacy, not that they keep it, and being sent to the Wall is considered better than many other punishments Westeros has to mete out. Tyrion is a regicide, kinslayer, and run-of-the-mill murderer, so for him a sentence of celibacy and silence is pretty light.

Tywin said so, yes. But in Jaime's chapter when he went to release Tyrion, he thought that Tyrion's execution was scheduled for the morning of the next day. In other words, Tywin can and does lie and very likely was lying through his teeth. He wanted to get rid of Tyrion and this was his chance, and he probably believed him to be guilty anyway.

Convicting Tyrion for being a murderer or even a regicide and kinslayer is also ironic considering his kin have murdered on a large scale (including a lot of little children, from Rhaenys down to little nameless children in the riverlands - I guess Tywin is an "extraordinary murderer" instead of a "run-of-the-mill murderer"), his kin effectively murdered king Robert and king Aerys, and his kin was about to kill their son/brother/nephew for a crime he didn't even commit (and arguably it wasn't a crime anyway for those he did commit it).

[rue721]

In ADWD, I personally wasn't always sure he was talking about Tysha when he would ask where whores go. To me, he seemed to bring it up mostly when he was thinking of his murder of Tywin.

He also says (out loud! no class :P) that he found out the hard way that his father didn't actually shit gold.

And he talks about how his father gave him a gold stag (to give to Tysha) and of course says over and over how a Lannister always pays his debts.

He's also wondering the world with basically no destination of his own.

Maybe *he's* the whore he's asking about? His father bought his soul, and now that his father's dead it's basically going up to the highest bidder.

To me, Tysha's rape was the first major success of Tywin's efforts to corrupt and degrade Tyrion. I think that Tyrion's murder of Tywin closed that chapter. I think now that Tyrion is "masterless" he's going to have to find out what he is and what his place in the world should be. And that's why he's always asking where he should go.

[benadgatemusic]

Hey, I really don't want to read this entire thread; was it ever established where whores go? :)

[jdkellar]

Where do whores go? Where the money is. What is used as money in ASoIaF? Gold. So Tysha actually could be Pretty Meris of the Golden Company. Also there is the line about her being "raped half round the company, not this company mind."

[Wouter]

Where do whores go? Where the money is. What is used as money in ASoIaF? Gold. So Tysha actually could be Pretty Meris of the Golden Company. Also there is the line about her being "raped half round the company, not this company mind."

1. Tysha was never a whore, and getting gangraped probably isn't exactly great inspiration to become one

2. Pretty Meris is not in "The Golden company", but in the company joined by Quentyn and his mates - the windblown.

3. In spite of that, what we are told of Pretty Meris 'dead on the inside', 'raped around the company, just not this particular company' and with her occupation as torturer (a way to get back at the world, and soldiers/men-at-arms in particular is quite consistent with what could be expected as a possible course for Tysha.

So, if Tysha is a named character she could well be pretty Meris (and isn't it convenient she entered Meereen), but not for the reasons you gave.

[Geekavenger]

I don't know what the significance will be ultimately ofTyrion's quest to find where whores go, I am sure it is important for his storyarc. That said I think Tywin was being snide he was going to say "Wherewhores go, you [Tyrion] always follow," referring to Shae sleeping in hisbed. I think Tyrion is reading into is because he thinks so highly of hisfather that he is determined to give real meaning to his last words, where nonemight actually exist. This quest for meaning will hopefully lead him somewherebut ultimately I think the question of "Where whores go?" is notgoing to be answered.

[Rydis]

He is going the wrong way, is wife is back in the Vale.

[Jon Snowed Me]

Psst.......Sailor's Wife.

Personally, I HIGHLY doubt that the Sailor's wife is Tysha. Do you think after being given over to Tywin's men and then raped lastly by Tyrion, the man she thought loved her, that she's just hanging out in Bravvos waiting to be found?? I doubt it again, plus the daughter, Lanna, doesn't work out age wise, too old. My thought is the Sailor's wife belongs to Gerion Lannister, who has been missing since he headed out to sea to reclaim the family sword, Brightroar, and never returned.

[tuthmoses]

she might be succcessfully married with six kids. Why are we assuming she became a whore?

And Tysha is NOT the Sailor's Wife , it's pretty clear the Sailor's Wife's first, true husband is dead. Tyrion is not dead. Also he's not a sailor.

While I'm far from convinced by this theory nothing is certain and I'd try not to be be stuck in the rut of taking things too literally if I were you ... her husband/love could just as easily be simply 'dead to her' as actually literally dead. And if you were to put yourself in her shoes her love of Tyrion would most certainly be dead after what he was complicate in. And as for the sailor part well if she came originally from a ship (from westeros?) being associated with a sailor is not unreasonable.

[Johnny Midknight]

Here is the theory that will be blasted from all sides...

I think penny is Tyrion's daughter. This is why he is not attracted to her. He notes her age as 17, 18, no more than 19 on page 443 of ADWD. Tyrion was 13, he is about 30-31 at this point in the tale. The age is just right.

Her mother was a normal sized person who married an ex-slave dwarf (reminded her of Tyrion, forced into life at a master (Tywin's) will. He was everything she hoped Tyrion would be. Her father was know to travel Westeros and penny states Oldtown specifically. This was after he brought his freedom (possibly Tysha's coin?).

This would also make sense with her name... Penny... Tysha was given 30 silver and 1 gold. What better name to give the child then Penny? Tyrion notices the name and it gives him a bad taste (IE his conscience is realizing it).

What better life that live with a man that makes you laugh and smile after the cruelty that she suffered. Oppo, might be her twin, but I don't think his age is mentioned. She states that he was the brains of the act. She states he always knew where to go and what to do. This would explain her connection to Tyrion. She was all that of Tysha and Tyrion was all that of Oppo.

This is all theory, but it explains a lot and would be extremely ironic.

[Hound's She-wolf]

Here is the theory that will be blasted from all sides...

I think penny is Tyrion's daughter. This is why he is not attracted to her. He notes her age as 17, 18, no more than 19 on page 443 of ADWD. Tyrion was 13, he is about 30-31 at this point in the tale. The age is just right.

I don't think the age is right, I think Tyrion is now about 26 or 27.