The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)

[Rinso]

Well, I cannot speak for anyone else who dislikes the theory (Is there [i]anyone[/i] else, btw? Or I'm the only one?), but myself, I never said that there were no pointers and clues that are hard to be comprehended otherwise (though far from every "proof" I have seen can be declared to be so certain - most are just things that are conveniently turned into the context of R+L=J, but otherwise don't mean so much). I have just said times and times again that I won't like the outcome of the theory, if it is indeed true, and deem it unnecessary and weak as far as original and good ideas go. It's not that I don't believe in R+L=J, it's that I [i]don't want[/i] to believe.

[Shewoman]

But you're assuming that the outcome will be cheesy, and it doesn't have to be. If R+L is strue but Jon never learns of his heritage or does and rejects it, would that bother you? I can see Martin doing either of those things.

[lblaney]

I'm going to don a flame-retardant cloak here, seeing that I am using time I should be planning lessons, and re-reading AGOT instead. I am still in the first 100 pages, and somehong I am noticing is how emphatically Jon is described as having the Stark features, to the extent that he looks more like a Stark than, well, the Stark children. Has anyone considered the possibility that BOTH of Jon's parents were starks? I wouldn't be able to argue the timeline as well as others on this board, but we realy don't know much (even after reading all 4 existing books) about the personalities of Lyanna, Rickon, or Benjen, to rule this out. Winterfell is rather far from any of the other castles, who knows?
If I were to go with this theory, I would bet that Ben is Jon's father. Perhaps taking the Black to atone for his actions and to prevent anyone from making the association.
I don't know how this would relate to Lyana's being with Rhaegar.

Regarding Ned's promise to Lyanna, perhaps he promised simply to keep this family secret.
Perhaps it was to make sure Lyanna was buried in the family crypt; maybe something aboutLyanna's corpse would reveal her having given birth, or an even darker secret should anyone else actually see her. (The Crying Game of Thrones?)

OK, I was just kidding about the last point. Back to the lessons.

[Rinso]

Shewoman,

The outcomes you listed wouldn't bother me, but the problem is that for them R+L=J is not obligatory at all.
I, mean, if Jon never learns the true identity of his mother (or father) - which will be the best - then why should his parents be [i]exactly[/i] Rhaegar and Lyanna? In such case, they can be Ned and Ashara, or Ned and Wylla, or Ned and that girl from the Fingers, or Ned and Robert, or Stannis and Moon Boy for all I care and it would lead to the same thing at the end.
And if he rejects his true identity, well, that's not bad as well, but it can be done just as (if not more) good with his Stark identity - something that torments him from the get-go.

To me, the only sense in R+L=J is for a cheesy ending with a hidden heir to the throne. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I see it.

[Shewoman]

Rinso, Eh . . . I trust Martin to have his own take on this one.

lblaney, I don't think it's possible for both of Jon's parents to be Starks. Since Lyanna is the only female Stark of her generation, we'll assume she'd have to be the mother if your theory is to work. That leaves her father Rickard and her brothers Brandon, Eddard, and Benjen as potential fathers. (I don't have the impression that there was much interaction between Starks and Karstarks even before Robb killed Lord Karstark, so I'm not including them. They do seem to be a family remarkably low on cousins. Moving on).

The problem here is that, as far as we know, no member of Lyanna's family saw her after she disappeared from the North shortly before Brandon Stark and Catelyn Tully were to marry except for Ned, who apparently found her very shortly before she died.

Ned's memories of his final visit with his sister could be interpreted as suggesting that Lyanna gave birth around the time he found her (the room smelled of blood and she is apparently close to death when he finds her), although that interpretation is, of course, not actually stated in any Ned PoV (or anywhere else).

Let's assume that near the end of the war Lyanna did, in fact, give birth to the Jon Snow that Ned brings back to Winterfell with him after the war. This is not an entirely unwarranted assumption, since Martin has told us that Jon is 8 or 9 months older than Dany and if he's born around the time of the Sack of Kings Landing, that works. (Dany was apparently conceived not long before the Sack.)

Okay. If she gave birth to Jon near the end of the war, obviously he must have been conceived around 9 months previously. Since the war lasted about a year, that would require his conception to be somewhere around 3 months into the war. Both Rickard and Brandon Stark were dead in KL by then (their deaths and those of their attendants being part of the festivities that got the war going), so we can eliminate them as candidates for Jon's father. I am listening to no theories in which Jon's father is a wight. I also don't believe that Ned is Jon's biological father because that would mean that he sired a bastard after he was married to Catelyn, and that sounds un-Ned to me. (I think Jon Snow is too young to have been conceived before Ned and Catelyn's marriage.)

This leaves Ned and Benjen. Ned, of course, claims to be the father of the bastard Jon Snow anyway, and as far as I can tell everyone believes him. Lyanna was in the north when she fell off of everyone's radar. Ned was in the Eyrie with Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon at that time. When Aerys demands that Jon Arryn send him Ned's and Robert's heads, Arryn instead calls his banners and Robert and Ned head off to gather their banners as well (they are both the heads of their families now). This means that Ned is heading north. The only indication we ever have of where Lyanna might have been, geographically speaking, after everyone lost track of her is in the south--the Tower of Joy near Dorne. We don't know when she got there, though.

Ned served as a general under Robert, leaving the war a few months into it to marry Catelyn (since his brother Brandon was dead); Jon Arryn married Lysa at the same time (Ned and Jon Arryn both returned to the war almost at once). These marriages sealed an anti-Targ alliance. It is my impression that Ned was fighting the war most of the time until it ended. It is hard to work out a scenario in which he could have encountered Lyanna, and in any case their meeting after the Sack does not suggest that they had seen each other at all recently. I have difficulty believing that Ned fathered a child on his sister not only because of the whole "honor" thing, but also because he (following Jon Arryn) spends a fair amount of time tracking down data on the Targaryen incest, to which he is opposed, without ever thinking "Well, there was that one time . . ." We run into calendar trouble with that anyway, since we can't place Ned and Lyanna together at the time at which Jon would have to be conceived. I don't think we hear where everyone goes after Harrenhal (which was a year or two before the war started anyway), but clearly Ned and Robert are in the Eyrie with Jon Arryn when Aerys orders Arryn to send him their heads. Perhaps Ned was at Winterfell between Harrenhal and that time and perhaps Lyanna was there too, but we don't know.

Which leaves Benjen, who was the Stark in Winterfell while Ned was at war. Couple of problems there: Ned brings Jon to Winterfell from the south. If Benjen is Jon's father, how come Ned brings him to the North, and what was Benjen doing in Dorne when he was supposed to be overseeing Winterfell during that time? Or. alternatively, how did he impregnate a Dornish woman if he was Starking it up at Winterfell? If Benjen and Lyanna are Jon's parents, then we're dealing with incest again and I just don't see that as likely. In any case, we can't place Benjen and Lyanna together during the time when she would have to have conceived.

And, finally, if Jon's father was Rickard, Brandon, Ned, or Benjen Stark by some woman other than Lyanna, what's the point of the secrecy where Jon's parentage is concerned? Rickard and Brandon are dead and can't be hurt by the rumor and, within a year or so of war's end, Benjen is at the Wall (and then points unknown). Why keep Jon from the knowledge of his parents and allow Catelyn to think that Ned cares more for the anonymous woman on whom he fathered Jon than he does for her if there's no if-I-tell-you-I'll-have-to-kill-you secret involved?

Of course, we have several books to go, and I daresay we'll hear more on the subject of Jon's parentage in them.

[Prince Who Was Promised]

R+L=J/the PWWP

[bac5665]

I also don't believe R+L=J. This is mostly because I don't think Ned would lie to Robert, and he tells Robert it was Willa, which is corroborated later on. Ned feels incredibly guilty when writing Robert's will after simply changing one word without drastically changing the meaning. To lie to his long-time friend, who would presumably know the most intimate details of Ned's life seems pretty unlikely to me.

I do not reject the theory that R and L had a baby, only that Jon is that child.

As to Ned having a child seeming out of character for Ned, I would think that GRRM would make all his characters multifaceted, and have made mistakes. It could easily be the case that Ned's dishonor with Willa made him the Honor obsessed man he was. We see him being described as quiet and shy at harrenhal, but he doesn't help the crannogman's honor, that task falls to his sister. It could easily be the case that, like Jon, fathering a bastard increased his resolve to act with honor.

[the silent speaker]

While I also don't believe R+L=J, in the interest of fairness:
[quote]Ned feels incredibly guilty when writing Robert's will after simply changing one word [b]without drastically changing the meaning[/b].[/quote]
Stannis and Joff beg to differ.

[Piper]

[quote name='bac5665' post='1508636' date='Sep 7 2008, 18.00']I also don't believe R+L=J. This is mostly because I don't think Ned would lie to Robert, and he tells Robert it was Willa, which is corroborated later on. Ned feels incredibly guilty when writing Robert's will after simply changing one word without drastically changing the meaning. To lie to his long-time friend, who would presumably know the most intimate details of Ned's life seems pretty unlikely to me.[/quote]

That scene, with Robert on his deathbed, actually comes across to me as supporting the theory. Ned certainly wrestles with telling Robert about Joffery on his - in the end, he changes the written word, but doesn't tell Robert:


[i]“Robert . . . ”[/i] Joffrey is not your son,[i] he wanted to say, but the words would not come. The agony was written too plainly across Robert’s face; he could not hurt him more. So Ned bent his head and wrote, but where the king had said “my son Joffrey,” he scrawled “my heir” instead. The deceit made him feel soiled.[/i] The lies we tell for love,[i] he thought.[/i] May the gods forgive me.


He lies; he feels like shit about it; but he does it for love. Sound familiar?

The lie isn't anything he writes - he later thinks that "heir" as Stannis, and will carry out the letter. The lie is not telling Robert about Joff.

If Jon's mother is Wylla, why the deception? Why bring pain to Cat by keeping the secret, and from Jon himself?

[quote]I do not reject the theory that R and L had a baby, only that Jon is that child.[/quote]
Who, then, is?

[Shewoman]

I don't think Ned likes to lie--as in his statement to Catelyn when she asks about Jon's mother: "He is my blood!" That could be understood as his claiming to be Jon's father or uncle (or cousin, or grandpa . . .). He also famously refuses to tell her or Jon who Jon's mother is, in spite of the fact that one could argue that Jon has a right to that knowledge and his withholding it from Cat leads her to believe he loves this other woman more than he loves her.

But if R+L=J, Ned can't possibly ever tell Robert that. He can't get near it. We see in GoT that Robert is worried enough about Dany to send assassins after her, against Ned's urgings otherwise. And if Wylla is Jon's mother, why keep that a secret from Jon and Catelyn?

Ned is protective of Jon for some reason. His having him raised at Winterfell is unusual for that society. Part of the reason he sends him to the Wall is to get him out of the public eye; he refuses to take him to KL with him and the girls. In GoT Ned PoV pp. 485-7 Ned wonders what he would do if a strange child's life threatened Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, or Rickon--and what Catelyn would do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? (US paperback). He thinks of him again and wishes he could talk with him after his arrest (but obviously before his execution) in GoT (Ned asks Varys if he'd deliver a letter for him; Varys says he''ll read and use it as he sees fit. "The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him." GoT, Ned PoV, pp. 633-5 US paperback. He doesn't think of any of the other children at that point--not even Bran, whom he thinks is permanently crippled. I'm not arguing that he loved Jon more than the others--but he does seem to have worried about him more.

GRRM has said that Jon Snow is 8-9 months older than Dany, and that fits his being born at the time of or shortly after the Sack of Kings Landing--the time frame in which Ned finds his dying sister in a room smelling of blood (a passage in which childbirth or a baby are not mentioned--and are never mentioned in any of Ned's PoVs, IIRC).

bac5665, where is Wylla corroborated as Jon's mother later on? If you're referring to Edric Dayne, who is 12 in SoS, that's something he's been told by his Aunt Allaria (whom I don't think we've ever met). He himself has never met Jon Snow and can't corroborate anything about Jon's birth from his own experience.

And Piper asks a good question: who is the R+L child? Where was it born? Where is it now? Will we ever hear of it? Arguing for an N+A child is difficult because of the calendar; the only times we know N+A were together are Harrenhal (one to two years before the war started, according to "What Happened When During Robert's Rebellion" at the Citadel), and Jon Snow is too young to have been conceived then, and when Ned returned Dawn to the Daynes just after the war ended, and Jon is too old to have been conceived then (plus, if Ashara suicided, Jon would presumably have died as well--not to mention the fact that Jon and a wetnurse were ensconced in Winterfell before Catelyn and Robb got there after the war, which doesn't allow for Ned to have waited out a pregnancy in Dorne and then brought Jon north). I'm not arguing that Ned and Ashara were never together except those two times . . . just that we've not heard of it yet.

[bac5665]

Shewoman and Piper, you both bring up good points. I do think Ned has a secret, and that he took it to the grave, with the possible exception of Howland Reed. My point is not so much that I know what happened, simply that I don't think R+L=J is very likely. I don't think that all the evidence for the biggest twist in the series would be so blatant in the first book. There is so much evidence that I think is has to be a red herring. I trust GRRM to come up with a better twist than the hidden heir.

There are at least 4 options that I see:
1. R+L

2. N+A

3. N+W

4. 2 or 3 + R+L=?

1. is plausible, and I see no reason to point out the evidence that everyone knows.

2. Why does Ned lie to Robert? To protect his lover's honor. [i]The lies we tell for love.[/i]

3. This seems plausible to me simply because I have a hard time buying that Ned lies to Robert about it.

4. There does seem to be some evidence that Rheagar at least wanted to have a child with Lyanna. He wanted another head for the PTWP. But, assuming Dani is the PTWP, Rheagar was wrong. This means that there is no prophetical reason for Lyanna to have had a viable pregnancy. She could have died giving birth to a stillborn child, which certainly would account for the dark and foreboding atmosphere of that scene. The bottom line is that there doesn't need to be such a child, or a hidden heir. At this juncture another claimant for the throne just muddles things, and lessens the righteous power of Dani and Stannis.

My honest opinion is that Jon is Ned's child. He doesn't have "the wolf blood" and he has the Stark look. Jon is Ned writ small, and seems destined to fill Ned's shoes in some way or another. Whether Jon's mother is Wylla or Ashara, I don't know, there are pros and cons to each, but Lyanna seems unlikely too me.

[Lady Blackfish]

Hmmm I don't think Jon and Lyanna not having the same temperament (the wolf's blood) means they can't be mother and child. See: Cersei and Myrcella, Doran and Arianne, Tytos and Tywin, Aerys and Rhaegar, etc.

ETA: Also, Arya has the wolf's blood, and she got it from her aunt. Didn't have to be the same temperament as her parent.

[Piper]

[quote name='bac5665' post='1508993' date='Sep 7 2008, 23.28']Shewoman and Piper, you both bring up good points. I do think Ned has a secret, and that he took it to the grave, with the possible exception of Howland Reed. My point is not so much that I know what happened, simply that I don't think R+L=J is very likely. [b]I don't think that all the evidence for the biggest twist in the series would be so blatant in the first book. There is so much evidence that I think is has to be a red herring. I trust GRRM to come up with a better twist than the hidden heir. [/b][/quote]

A few things on this. First, it was supposed to be (I think) the first of a trilogy, not of a set of seven, so more was needed in the first book. Secondly, that also means there was to be less time for people to stew on the mysteries, combing over the book with such fine teeth. Third, I can honestly say that I did not figure out R + L = J on my own. I needed it pointed out for me, and I can only hope most readers are similar (I could be wrong here). So I guess its just obvious to those more astute than me.

[quote]My honest opinion is that Jon is Ned's child. [b]He doesn't have "the wolf blood" [/b]and he has the Stark look. Jon is Ned writ small, and seems destined to fill Ned's shoes in some way or another. Whether Jon's mother is Wylla or Ashara, I don't know, there are pros and cons to each, but Lyanna seems unlikely too me.[/quote]

We know the Stark look can come from both the mother or the father, but I will disagree with you on the "wolf blood" thing:

[i]And then he heard the laughter, sharp and cruel as a whip, and the voice of Ser Alliser Thorne. “Not only a bastard, but a traitor’s bastard,” he was telling the men around him.

In the blink of an eye, Jon had vaulted onto the table, dagger in his hand. Pyp made a grab for him, but he wrenched his leg away, and then he was sprinting down the table and kicking the bowl from Ser Alliser’s hand. Stew went flying everywhere, spattering the brothers. Thorne recoiled. People were shouting, but Jon Snow did not hear them. He lunged at Ser Alliser’s face with the dagger, slashing at those cold onyx eyes, but Sam threw himself between them and before Jon could get around him, Pyp was on his back clinging like a monkey, and Grenn was grabbing his arm while Toad wrenched the knife from his fingers.

Later, much later, after they had marched him back to his sleeping cell, Mormont came down to see him, raven on his shoulder. “I told you not to do anything stupid, boy,” the Old Bear said. “Boy,” the bird chorused. Mormont shook his head, disgusted. “And to think I had high hopes for you.”[/i]

Everyone always forgets this scene, where Jon flies into a fit of homicidal rage. Wolfs blood? I'd say so.

[Shewoman]

bac5665, if Wylla is Jon's mother, why on earth keep that a secret from Jon and Catelyn, both of whom arguably have more need-to-know than Robert does? And servants in that culture weren't understood as having "honor" as the nobility understood it. Furthermore, Wylla was a wetnurse before Jon was born (she nursed him) and so must have had and nursed a child at some point, although we don't know who the father was or what became of him or the child. In other words, she wasn't a virgin at the time Jon was born.

I don't think that Jon is biologically Ned's son, but he certainly is more like Ned than any of Catelyn's children are.

IF R+L=J (which I realize is not proven), Ned has every reason to lie to Robert about who Jon's mother is. "Do you remember my sister Lyanna? Pretty girl, blonde? Yes, the one you were engaged to. Yeah, she was Rhaegar's lover and I'm raising their son at Winterfell. That's right, he's half Targaryen. Robert, why are you screaming for Gregor to come here?"

[Prince of the North]

[quote name='Piper' post='1509082' date='Sep 8 2008, 00.38']...
Everyone always forgets this scene, where Jon flies into a fit of homicidal rage. Wolfs blood? I'd say so.[/quote]
Yes, I think you're right. Everyone does seem to forget this scene and also Jon's going into a beserker-like frenzy and beating Iron Emmit in the practice yard.

Maybe these things (and others) are evidence of Jon having the "wolf's blood" or maybe they are evidence of someone or something "waking the dragon" in him? Maybe they're a combination of both? :dunno:

[Lady Blackfish]

Well, Ned also had a latent temper:

"His fury was on him."

"This morning he had been so heartsick and weary he could scarcely stand, but now his fury was on him, filling him with strength."

Granted, not near berserker rage, but I think when they refer to someone having the wolf blood it has to be more than an occasional anger, because [i]everyone[/i] gets pissed sometimes. Jon doesn't go around acting impulsively or rashly or getting indignant at every offense (beyond his quite normal teenage angst).

[Piper]

[quote name='Lady Blackfish' post='1509721' date='Sep 8 2008, 13.32']Jon doesn't go around acting impulsively or rashly or getting indignant at every offense (beyond his quite normal teenage angst).[/quote]

Well, he did impulsively decide to join the Night's Watch, but that was more :cheers: than any sort of animal blood awakening in him, me thinks.

[Prince of the North]

[quote name='Lady Blackfish' post='1509721' date='Sep 8 2008, 12.32']Well, Ned also had a latent temper:

"His fury was on him."

"This morning he had been so heartsick and weary he could scarcely stand, but now his fury was on him, filling him with strength."

Granted, not near berserker rage, but I think when they refer to someone having the wolf blood it has to be more than an occasional anger, because [i]everyone[/i] gets pissed sometimes. Jon doesn't go around acting impulsively or rashly or getting indignant at every offense (beyond his quite normal teenage angst).[/quote]
Personally, I think the description in the North of someone "having the wolf's blood" refers not so much to anger but to a general [i]wildness[/i] or unpredictability (which may or may not include being angry sometimes). I don't think we have enough evidence to say either Lyanna or Brandon, both described as "having the wolf's blood", acted impulsively or rashly [i]all the time[/i] although they certainly did (imho) [i]at least one time[/i].

Also, my impression of the phrase "waking the dragon" is that it is an all-consuming rage or madness but that's just my largely unsupported belief. I just look at Jon's rage toward Iron Emmit in the practice yard, a rage so strong that he literally sees red, has a foggy memory of the fight, and gives him a sort of beserker strength to beat down a guy who's reasonably good with a sword, and I think that [i]may be[/i] what the phrase "waking the dragon" refers to. Also, there's Aerys Targaryen's madness and the atrocities he committed and there's his son Viserys's constant threatening of people not to "wake the dragon" and his cruelty toward Dany. They were both crazy, imho. It is said that among the Targaryens madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. If Jon does turn out to be a Targaryen, I wonder which side of the coin Martin will have turn up for him?

Now, I think Jon has demonstrated that he [i]could[/i] legitimately be described as "having the wolf's blood" [i]and/or[/i] having the capability for someone or something to "wake the dragon" in him. Also, remember Jon actually deserted the Night's Watch! He knew the penalty for desertion full well [i]and he did it anyway[/i]. I think that's another rash, impulsive act that [i]could[/i] provide more evidence of his "having the wolf's blood".

But, like most everything Martin has masterfully foreshadowed in these books, all this [i]could[/i] mean something or it [i]could[/i] mean nothing. It will only be in hindsight that we will be able to think "ah, it was right there all along - I should have known"...or not! ;)

[Piper]

[quote name='Prince of the North' post='1511179' date='Sep 9 2008, 13.08']It is said that among the Targaryens madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. If Jon does turn out to be a Targaryen, I wonder which side of the coin Martin will have turn up for him?

Now, I think Jon has demonstrated that he [i]could[/i] legitimately be described as "having the wolf's blood" [i]and/or[/i] having the capability for someone or something to "wake the dragon" in him. Also, remember Jon actually deserted the Night's Watch! He knew the penalty for desertion full well [i]and he did it anyway[/i]. I think that's another rash, impulsive act that [i]could[/i] provide more evidence of his "having the wolf's blood".

But, like most everything Martin has masterfully foreshadowed in these books, all this [i]could[/i] mean something or it [i]could[/i] mean nothing. It will only be in hindsight that we will be able to think "ah, it was right there all along - I should have known"...or not! ;)[/quote]

Great point; I've always assumed that if Jon does turn out to have Targ blood, it will manifest itself in positive ways - but there is significant evidence (attempted murder, attempted desertion, etc) to indicate he might be on the unstable side.

And if that's the case, it could turn out to be an interesting twist on the "hidden prince" meme. Sure, he's a hidden prince - but he's crazy.

[Prince of the North]

[quote name='Piper' post='1511571' date='Sep 9 2008, 16.15']Great point; I've always assumed that if Jon does turn out to have Targ blood, it will manifest itself in positive ways - but there is significant evidence (attempted murder, attempted desertion, etc) to indicate he might be on the unstable side.

And if that's the case, it could turn out to be an interesting twist on the "hidden prince" meme. Sure, he's a hidden prince - but he's crazy.[/quote]
Exactly! I basically believe the same. And I'd probably be more surprised than anyone if Martin decides to have Jon turn out less than sterling (I believe R+L=J). But I think, if anyone would do something like that, it'd be Martin. ;)

You know, it really would be interesting to have Jon be the "legitimate" heir to the Iron Throne but turn to the dark side, so to speak. Then it could very well be that Dany really is the PtwP (like Aemon figured out just before dying) and she would really have to show up and save the day!

I think such a scenario could give new/more meaning to Dany's vision of Rhaegar in the House of the Undying, too. That is, [i]if[/i] the woman in the vision is Elia and [i]if[/i] the baby she is holding is Aegon then maybe Rhaegar's looking at Dany and telling her "there must be another" is actually him telling her [i]that it's her[/i]? Correct me if I'm wrong but Rhaegar's and Elia's two children would have already been born (assuming Aegon is the babe in the vision) [i]but Dany would not have been born yet[/i]. Just a thought... :dunno: