The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)

[Shewoman]

Whoever fathered Jon, he's more like Ned than any of Ned's kids by Catelyn and he certainly wasn't raised by Targaryens. If R+L=J. then Dany (Rhaegar's sister) is Jon's aunt. I don't think he'd marry his aunt if he knew that she was, in fact, his aunt.

Martin has said that the end of the series will be "bittersweet."

[Tamyrlin Belgarion Targaryen Rahl]

Trust GRRM to make the ending bittersweet... Im rereading the first book and I still find myself hoping Joffrey will "have mercy" on Eddard :bang:

I have to wonder what is taking each book so long, if Martin isnt changing his original ideas that he thought would produce a trilogy.

[Shewoman]

Martin travels to SF conventions (I believe in the last year he went to one in Spain) and edits the Wild Card series (and may have other literary irons in the fire, for all I know). Obviously the series has gone on longer than he expected--he thought the Red Wedding would be in GoT and it's actually two books after that. I seriously doubt that he's making changes to suit anyone but himself and his publisher (who refused to let him publish AFFC and ADWD as a single novel).

[Vendetto]

What about if R+L= Edric Dayne, and Jon was really Eddard's bastard on Wylla?

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Vendetto' post='1579429' date='Nov 6 2008, 00.00']What about if R+L= Edric Dayne, and Jon was really Eddard's bastard on Wylla?[/quote]

Unless Edric is lying about his age being 12 in 299, then R+L=ED doesn't come close to working. He is four years too young. Jon being Ned's son with Wylla is still possible, but it makes little sense with all the clues and mystery surrounding Jon's birth.

[Vendetto]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1579459' date='Nov 5 2008, 21.52']Unless Edric is lying about his age being 12 in 299, then R+L=ED doesn't come close to working. He is four years too young. Jon being Ned's son with Wylla is still possible, but it makes little sense with all the clues and mystery surrounding Jon's birth.[/quote]

That's right. My bad. Nevermind about that lol.

[Cristo]

I'd also like to add to anyone saying Jon isn't of the "wolf blood", I'm pretty sure he is.

Someone posted an extract where Jon flies into a fit of rage at Ser Allister Thorne for insulting his father, that's the first piece of evidence.

Second is that Jon has a Direwolf. In the beginning of GoT when the children get their Direwolves, Catelyn says "5 wolves for the 5 true Stark children" (or something like that) because it seems like there isn't a 6th one, when in actuality there is an albino Direwolf that Jon then finds. It seems to me that Martin was saying "Whoa, whoa guys, remember - Jon is a Stark, he's got wolf blood and he's got a wolf".

So I definitely think a connection between him and Lyanna is possible.

[Stratonice]

[quote name='Cristo' post='1579768' date='Nov 6 2008, 15.43']Second is that Jon has a Direwolf. In the beginning of GoT when the children get their Direwolves, Catelyn says "5 wolves for the 5 true Stark children" (or something like that) because it seems like there isn't a 6th one, when in actuality there is an albino Direwolf that Jon then finds. It seems to me that Martin was saying "Whoa, whoa guys, remember - Jon is a Stark, he's got wolf blood and he's got a wolf".[/quote]

IIRC it's actually Jon that makes the connection between the number of wolves (as well as how many are male and female) and Ned's trueborn children. Catelyn is not present when the wolves are found.

[Cristo]

[quote name='Stratonice' post='1579775' date='Nov 6 2008, 09.47']IIRC it's actually Jon that makes the connection between the number of wolves (as well as how many are male and female) and Ned's trueborn children. Catelyn is not present when the wolves are found.[/quote]

Oh, really? I haven't read the book in years and I'm due for a re-read so thanks for pointing that out.

Actually that's even better, since it's self-realisation.

[Maia]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1578897' date='Nov 5 2008, 14.18']If R+L=J. then Dany (Rhaegar's sister) is Jon's aunt. I don't think he'd marry his aunt if he knew that she was, in fact, his aunt.[/quote]

Why on earth not? In RL, in many, many societies such marriages were quite normal and as far as I can see, they are both normal and legal in mainstream Westerosi culture as well.
Codex of Justinian, which built the basis for many subsequent legal restrictions of marriages between relatives in the Christian countries, was aimed at preventing the magnates from assembling too much power through close intermarriage. Which is why it affected not only blood relatives, but relatives-at-law as well and why it never was observed strictly. In fact, most rural settlements would have died out, if they tried to observe all the limtations.
Not that I wouldn't hate the scenario of Jon marrying Dany and becoming king, but I saw no moral or legal objections to such a marriage, from what we know about Westerosi customs.

[bacchys]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1578607' date='Nov 5 2008, 11.13']Bacchys, we know that Ned (substituting for Brandon) and Cat got married a few months into the war (at the same time as Lysa Tully and Jon Arryn) in order to seal an alliance against Aerys. We know from Cat that Robb was conceived on their wedding night. She spent the war in Riverrun while Ned was a general under Robert; at war's end Jon and a wet nurse were already at Winterfell when she and Robb got there.

I think it's clear that the two boys are close in age and probably were conceived around the same time. Cat thinks Robb is older and she may be right, for all I know.[/quote]
She thinks that, I believe, because Eddard told her that. The size of the babes might have reinforced any such belief, too. They obviously are very close in age, so even if Jon is actually the older it can't be by much. Certainly by no more than he is believed to be younger.

I don't see any real reason to doubt the relative ages of Robb and Jon as we know them. If Martin is leaving clues as to Jon's parentage (and I think he has been). this would be one of those clues, imo. It's part of the revealed timeline. Jon was conceived after Robb. While that fits with the story of Eddard slaking his needs during the campaign on Wylla that Robert believes, we can certainly speculate it's because Lyanna became pregnant with Rhaegar's child after the Rebellion began. Perhaps despite the "abduction" taking place earlier than Eddard's marriage, the longer delay is because Rhaegar and Lyanna waited to get married before having sex?

[quote]Bacchys said: "Rhaella's last interaction with Aerys couldn't have been the brutal sex remembered by Jaime and her still be 9-10 months younger than Jon. That event occurred the same day Rickard and Brandon Stark were murdered." Are you saying that the brutal sex Jaime overheard took place on the day that the Stark men were murdered? No. The murders of the Starks and their retainers with their fathers was what really got the war going--it was shortly after that that Aerys called on Jon Arryn to send him Ned's and Robert's heads. He didn't.

I believe Other-in-law is right. Jaime in FFC remembers hearing Rhaella scream but being told that the KG couldn't interfere. She and Viserys left KL soon after that, IIRC.[/quote]
I think he's right, too. I've been trying to hold off re-reading the books until DwD is at least to the publisher, so now I think I've mis-recalled. Jaime recalls that Aerys really only became aroused after burning someone, so I suppose I confused executions.

[Shewoman]

Maia--Jon was essentially raised by Ned Stark, who strikes me as being about as straight-laced as they come. It seems to me that Jon is more like Ned than any of Ned and Catelyn's children are. Ned was horrified by the Lannister twincest, and although part of that was probably because it messed up the Baratheon line, I think he would also have been opposed to incest in general, and I think Jon would follow him in that. When Jaime wants them to come out into the open about their relationship, Cersei certainly thinks that's a bad idea (in part because she'd lose her status, but I think she also realizes that public knowledge of the incest itself would cost her).

[Maia]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1580091' date='Nov 6 2008, 14.24']It seems to me that Jon is more like Ned than any of Ned and Catelyn's children are. Ned was horrified by the Lannister twincest,).[/quote]

But twincest has nothing whatsoever to do with marriage between relatives. If marriage to uncles and aunts is legal and normal in Westeros, like we know the marriage between first cousins is, why would Ned object to it, anymore than he would object to death penalty? US laws were based on a very faulty understanding of eugenics. A one-time marriage between first cousins increases the risk for offspring only a little, as compared to a random marriage. Whereas if one makes it into a habit, negative consequences _can_ appear in a few generations, there are genetical defects that mean much greater risks, yet their carriers weren't and aren't prohibited from marriage or procreation. Marriage to an uncle or an aunt is not desirable from a modern POV, but in many cultures it was completely normal.

[bacchys]

When it comes to incest, we have the testimony of Jaime and Cersei that it's not a commonly accepted practice in Westeros with the exception of the Targaryens. In AFFC, Jaime argues that they should go public with their relationship and Cersei is adamantly opposed because of what the general reaction would be. Her answer to Jaime's citation of the Targaryens is that the Targaryens are different.

For whatever reason, the Westerosi nobility accept incest when it comes to Targaryens, but no one else- although I'd bet in the smaller, more isolated villages it's not unknown. The realization that Craster's wives are also his daughters incurred negative emotions on the part of Sam, Jon, and the other young NW.

Even so, I don't think the general view of incest is going to impact Jon if it comes to him meeting Danaerys and Danaerys insisting on marriage. From Danaerys's viewpoint, if Jon is her nephew he's the most eligible bridegroom available. Remember, she grew up believing she would marry Viserys in the family tradition. Jon, OTOH, hasn't grown up with the knowledge that she's his aunt. As an emotional matter, she's not his aunt. Additionally, if his view of Targaryen incest is similar to the rest of Westeros, the fact that he's a Targaryen coupled with the fact that Danaerys is a stranger to him would probably blunt any emotional barrier about incest.

[Shewoman]

Vendetto, Edric is also the Lord of Starfall, which most likely means that the circumstances of his birth are well known.

Maia, do we see marriage between nephews or nieces and uncles or aunts in Westeros, excluding Targaryens? I don't pretend to have memorized all the family histories, but I'm not coming up with an instance.

I still think that Jon is likely to follow convention on this one--the convention that Jaime wants to flout and Cersei doesn't. It depends, I suppose, in part on whether he and Dany meet, whether they are both single if they do, whether they are attracted to each other, and whether Jon wants to accept all that comes--good and bad--with being a Targaryen.

[Jon Targaryen]

I think it won't be an issue upon first meeting. Jon won't know his true heritage when he meets Dany. Romance develops, then the bomb drops.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Jon Targaryen' post='1580520' date='Nov 6 2008, 20.28']Romance develops, then the bomb drops.[/quote]
And then Lovecraftian horror ensues!

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1580504' date='Nov 6 2008, 20.17']I still think that Jon is likely to follow convention on this one--the convention that Jaime wants to flout and Cersei doesn't.[/quote]

I'm of the opinion that if there is a romance between Jon and Dany it is without either of them knowing of any family relationship between them - at least to start. I'm reminded of Sophocles and Oedipus when I consider this possibility, and I don't mean a Disney film version of the classic.

[Maia]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1580504' date='Nov 6 2008, 20.17']I still think that Jon is likely to follow convention on this one--the convention that Jaime wants to flout and Cersei doesn't.[/quote]

But since we don't know what the convention is, there is no way to say what following the convention would mean. I don't remember any marriage to uncles or aunts off the bat - but IIRC Arianne was having a crush on Oberyn and didn't consider it incestuous. It was repeatedly mentioned about the Targs that they married "brother to sister", though, that may be an indication that in general Westerosi only consider sexual relationships between siblings and parents and offspring to be unacceptable.

[VorianGR]

[quote name='Maia' post='1580992' date='Nov 7 2008, 12.33']but IIRC Arianne was having a crush on Oberyn and didn't consider it incestuous.[/quote]


Where is this mentioned? I totally missed it.