Crannogman Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Thanks for answering my question so well, Arakasi. Still doesn't explain why there aren't any martin-erikson or martin-bakker threads, but that may be because this is a Martin board and the odds wouldn't be equal. To prove this theory, I'd have to search the Erikson board for Martin-Bakker threads, and the Bakker board for Martin-Erikson threads. Hmm. As for Kellhus, he is extremely powerful, yes, but I don't mind because I read him mainly as the bad guy. Not sure whether he or the Consult are worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakasi Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Oh this board was full of Erikson/Martin threads for a very very long time. Only in the last 6 months to a year have they died. Why I'm not sure. It just seemed to have more turned into a Bakker/Erikson thing lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Baelish Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 I remember the Erikson-Martin threads. They generally ended up in the Erikson fans (obviously the minority) being called ridiculous for saying Erikson was better. I remember virtually being called stupid because I said Erikson was more rereadable than Martin. The Bakker-Erikson threads have at least been more civil, at least from what I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaine Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Oh this board was full of Erikson/Martin threads for a very very long time. Only in the last 6 months to a year have they died. Why I'm not sure. It just seemed to have more turned into a Bakker/Erikson thing lately. I'd say they died off mainly because you and lots of other Erikson fans pointed the futility of objectively comparing the two on what is essentially a GRRM board. I think everybody can see the unfairness of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakasi Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 True enough. If the forum of discussion was a more neutral place it likely would have worked better. But yeah they're still my two favorite fantasy authors, even though god I hope ADWD is better than AFFC was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hark Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Dunno if the original question is even still relevant, but anyway... Based on the criterea, I'd say Bakker fits the bill better than Erikson. That said, I prefer Erikson. re: characterisation.. it's an interesting subject. Most authors, including Martin and Bakker, develop characters by letting the reader into their thoughts. You get to know them from the inside in. If this is done well, you get to know a character almost like you know yourself. This can create a deep sense of intimacy between the reader and the character(s). Erikson almost never does this. In fact, on the few occasions that he tries, he doesn't do that good a job at it. What Erikson does it build characters externally. You don't get to know them through their thoughts. You get to know them through their actions, and the reactions they evoke in other characters around them. This take MUCH longer to actually produce a deep character, and the ultimate result is a kind of love, or feeling of friendship/respect/admiration for the character. To me, this is much more like real life. In real life I have no access to people's inner thoughts. I get to know them much like Erikson develops his characters. 3 books into the series, I feel a very strong connection with many of the characters, but I don't KNOW them as well as I know Arya, Sansa, Jaime, Jon or even Cnaiur and Kellhus. Some people would hate this, I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berencamlost7 Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Erikson every day. I've only read Book 1 of Bakker though, so perhaps things will change, whereas I've read all Erikson's stuff. Makes me laugh when people go on about Bakker's "complex plot". Yeah. Highly derirative plot would be my take on it. He's lauded also for his "deeper than deep" characterisation. That's not so tough when you've only got a dozen characters that matter, and most of them didn't matter much to me. And there's those that speak highly of his "beautiful prose". Yet to see much of that also. I rate writers like Vance, Peake, Dunsany and their ilk, and for me Bakker don't come anywhere near their quality of prose. I don't get Bakker at all really. And that probably says more about the sort of stuff I like than a failing on his part though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceless Man of Braavos Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Gotta go with Bakker. Neither Bakker or Erikson are GRRM's league but Bakker edges out Erikson for one reason... Gardens of the Moon is an unfortunate opening installment for an epic fantasy series. I can't even count the posts I've encountered over the years where bewildered readers express battle fatigue trying to slog through it. Some jump ship, never making it to the improved later books. Erikson's legacy will be hampered by this. I believe it took about 8 months of sporadic reading for me to finish it... Even staunch Erikson defenders are fooling themselves if they do not acknowledge the GOTM-fatigue phenomenon. Bakker's books, OTOH, have been of consistent quality throughout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakasi Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Really faceless man? I'll have to tell my wife. Since well for her Gotm is her favorite book in the series. Or Ran, for whom GOTM is his 3rd favorite, or for me who its tied for 3rd out of 6. So yeah there are plenty of people who like GOTM quite a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceless Man of Braavos Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 No doubt many people like GOTM... but in my travels of the internet fantasy boards so many people don't finish it, or just barely manage to slog through it. Can you honestly say you haven't come across this? I'm thinking that Erikson lost alot of potential book sales by not introducing readers to his world like GRRM did with AGoT. What a classic opening novel for a fantasy series that was. GOTM was great in terms of pyrotechnics... but not in terms of good story telling. But he has gotten better in later volumes. And I'm really not an Erikson hater... I think he may be a touch overrated though. And I don't think I'm alone in this... he doesn't sell a ton of books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakasi Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Hear the same thing about Fellowship of the Ring. And actually I know a good deal of people who don't like AGOT. But shockingly enough you won't find them on a Martin board. Sure I've come across people who don't like GOTM. But just as many of those people who tried DG didn't like that either as those who did like the series. I feel a strength of the series is that he skipped the infodump most books do. I understand that it might have lost him readers, but then again I'm sure other authors lost people with their style (Joyce anyone?). As for writer quality = book sales, I'll just laugh at that. Considering the numbers of books that Jordan, Goodkind, Eddings, Newcombe and Paulini sell I'd really not trust the idea that book sales mean anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Mongoose Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 I prefer Erikson for the scale of the work, but then Erikson has written more books. There's a lot more to come from Bakker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hark Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 I have to agree with Faceless Man on GotM. When I got done with it, I knew I had just read a great book. But honestly, it took most of the book before I could make up my mind whether I just liked it or loved it. If I was going to try to turn someone on to the Malazan series, I would tell them to start with Deadhouse Gates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slurktan Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 I would have to say Erikson actually but more for length. I really, really, don't like either MoI or MT but the others make up for it to me. I really, really like Darkness, and Warrior Prophet, but thought Thousandfold Thought was a bag of shit with a cover. As thats the end of that particular story I can't recommend it as I believe endings to be much more important to a series then other parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceless Man of Braavos Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Hear the same thing about Fellowship of the Ring. And actually I know a good deal of people who don't like AGOT. But shockingly enough you won't find them on a Martin board. Yeah, but there are lots of "can't get into Erikson" posts on wotmania.com though. Actually there is one on the front page right now... One pops up every couple of days. Can't remember the last time I saw a "Don't like AGoT" thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaine Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Of the two Erikson books I read before I gave up on him, GotM was definitely far less enjoyble than Deadhouse Gates. I remember Ran and a number of other boarders suggesting people reading DG first, as it was easier for most people to get into than GotM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 Ya'll make compelling cases one way or another...a couple things have hampered me from getting into either one and trying them on your recommendations/condemnations: 1. I can't find copies of the first couple books of Bakker at the moment...really, 5 various Borders and Barnes & Noble so far and only the curent hardback to be found...a good sign? Maybe. 2. How the hell many books are in Erikson's series already? Not knowing for some reason, or not being able to tell, is intimidating for some reason...something about not really knowing what I'm getting myself into... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 There are 6 Erikson books out now, with 10 expected. Erikson throws out a 800 or more page book at the pace of one a year or every 14 months. Amazing. (probably accounts for some of the timeline issues that drive a few people MAD) hahahahaa When? I guess that's what throws me...I thought Gardens of the Moon was his first...and after that I think I remember one, maybe two sequels, but I don't recall ANY others...I'm in the bookstore all the damn time and I missed this somehow, I think that's what's frustrated me and prevented me from getting into him... And yeah, bookstores don't always stock well in Fantasy/SF, but I've never had issues with the couple regular stores I frequent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakasi Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 There are 6 malazan books out, although only 3 in the US. Names of the books in order are Gardens of the Moon, Deadhouse Gates, Memories of Ice, House of Chains, Midnight Tides and The Bonehunters. Last 4 book titles will be The Reaper's Gale, Toll the Hounds, Dreams of Dust and The Crippled God. TRG is already over halfway done (there are some friends of Erikson and test readers who have read the first half of the book.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 There are 6 malazan books out, although only 3 in the US. See that makes sense then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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