Am I the only one who thinks that the First Law Trilogy is overrated?

[Zach H]

[quote name='Argon' post='1547999' date='Oct 8 2008, 12.53']I wouldn't say it's 'overrated' but my problem with [b]The Blade Itself[/b] was the ending and the kind of cliffhanger that never has really compelled me to go and buy next instalment. So, I've got the intention to finish the trilogy sometime just can't say when and that makes the author not top of my list. Sorry about that Joe. :leaving:[/quote]
Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. I didn't dislike the first book, but it didn't offer me enough that I'm in any hurry to continue reading. I experienced a similar thing with Robin Hobb and Greg Keyes. Solid writers, but lacking that essential something that makes their work unique and engaging enough that I feel I have to continue making my way through their entire list of published works.

[Samalander]

[quote name='Ashara' post='1548006' date='Oct 8 2008, 18.58']Ijust this morning I brought up Bayaz as how I would like to see Neutral alignments handled in D&D based mods[/quote]
Have we been reading the same books? That guy has Evil stamped all over him.

[Red Sun]

I'm in the camp of those who didn't like the books. In fact, I still have not finished [b]The Blade Itself[/b]. However, it has more to do with my taste than with the overall quality. I found myself not caring for the main characters at all, even though Logen Ninefinger is not uninteresting, I can not really get into this kind of character, and after the third scene in the toture chamber, I was really sick of reading them and being sort of a silent complice in the action. That was the main reason for me not to continue, and I couldn't care less if those men were criminals or not. It's just not something I want to read for "entertainment".

What I really appreciate about the book is that Abercrombie tries to create a special tone or voice for every point of view character, because it is so rarely done. That shows his craft as a writer.

[Balefont]

[quote name='Red Sun' post='1548206' date='Oct 8 2008, 15.16']What I really appreciate about the book is that Abercrombie tries to create a special tone or voice for every point of view character, because it is so rarely done. That shows his craft as a writer.[/quote]

:agree:

I'll also add, with 200 pages left of LAoK, I am soooo glad I kept up with the trilogy. My opinion definitely improved with each successive book - which, I think, is preferable to the opposite. I'm tearing through LAoK like nobody's business.

[Arthmail]

[b]Gyrehead[/b] :Overall I get a strong sense that I am reading what would happen if David Gemmell, Terry Brooks and Raymond Feist walked in a bar and got smashed. And drunken ramblings from Gemmell I could handle. Brooks and Feist lucid I have problems with.


Funny. As. Hell.

I understand that this is a web site dedicated to GRRM. But to say that his book is good enough to spoil other works fucking blows my mind. I am a MONSTER Matthew Good fan, but it does not mean i cannot listen to any other music. It does not mean that i do not enjoy music, or do not listen to it. Sure, i have a six change cd player in my truck, and five of them are usually Matthe Good cd's...but there is always room for more.

And after the steaming load of crap that was AFFC, that has left a great deal of room for other authors for me. Also, this massive gap between books thing has completely tested my patience. I will buy the next book because GRRM is a good author, but i won't be anticipating it, i won't be gagging for it. For me, Abercrombie is the guy i most look forward to now that David Gemmell is dead (his Troy series, one of the best written.) GRRM is not even on my main book shelf anymore, he's on the secondary shelf.

I had some problems with the trilogy. Mainly Ferro. I hated her. I hated her continual use of the word pink. No matter her importance, i think a great many other people would have told her to frig off or simply killed her. Too annoying for words. But in regards to Abercrombie using phrases too often, lets try: "my lion of lannister, etc, etc." Some authors simply repeat, simple enough.

I personally found the series brilliant. Why? Because i enjoyed the hell out of it. I did not go in expecting it to change my life, or my DNA...i went in looking for a good yarn, and i got it. I liked Glokta, and i liked the interaction between Dogman and his fellows. I didn't much care for Logen and his story line with Bayaz, but it was passable.

Its all a matter of taste. Its obvious that i have good taste, and those that didn't like the book, don't.

Ha, just kidding.

No i'm not.

[Slynt]

[quote]I personally found the series brilliant. Why? Because i enjoyed the hell out of it. I did not go in expecting it to change my life, or my DNA...i went in looking for a good yarn, and i got it. I liked Glokta, and i liked the interaction between Dogman and his fellows. I didn't much care for Logen and his story line with Bayaz, but it was passable.[/quote]

Exactly - however, for me [i]A Song of Ice and Fire[/i] was a life-changing experience, just like [i]Star Wars[/i] and [i]The Lord of the Rings[/i] were in my formative years. It's like I have discovered the ultimate book in regards to what I like to read, thus everything else pales a bit. Just like there never be a movie to replace [i]The Empire Strikes Back[/i], although I enjoyed the hell out of many movies since 1980 (it's easier, however, to finish watching a half-decent movie than finishing a half-decent fantasy series of thousands of pages).

Since I first read AGoT, ACoK and ASoS back in 2002, I've had a hard time reading other books because they are just not as interesting, vivid or appealling and I have often found myself returning to a re-read of ASoIaF instead of finishing whatever I was reading. But now I have made a conscious effort to "get into" other books more; I just finished [i]The First Law[/i] and R. Dawkins' [i]The God Delusion[/i], and now about 20 other purchased titles languishing in my shelf await..

[TakLoufer]

I used to have the opinion that nothing compares to Martin, but I have to admit that as of late GRRM has lost a bit of his luster for me. He's still on my top five for favorite fantasy writers, but I'd put Bakker, Parker, possibly Abercrombie (if only because his series is complete) and, if the Warlord Chronicles counts as fantasy, Cornwell ahead of him. The problem is that from AFFC I get the distinct impression that Martin is losing control of the story. He knows how it needs to end, and now he needs to [i]force[/i] that ending to happen. I'm afraid the necessity of doing so might end up feeling contrived and rushed.

On the other hand, without GRRM I would have never read any of the other authors.

I'm eagerly awaiting Bakker's next book. I'll buy Abercrombie's [i]Best Served Cold[/i] as soon as it comes out, and I should get Parker's [i]The Company[/i] in the mail any day now. As far as I'm concerned, we [i]might[/i] get ADWD by the end of the decade, but I doubt it. :(

[Arthmail]

A Song of Fire and Ice was a life changing experience? Seriously? And Empire Strikes Back? Now, it was a great movie, by far the best of all the Star Wars movies. But its not really even on the radar anymore for me. Great movie, but there have been so many great movies since then. There have been a great many movies that surpass that movie, the latest Batman being one of them. Rose tinted glasses perhaps?

When i first read GRRM, i picked the book off the shelf by chance. I was not really captivated until the death of Ned, which shocked the crap out of me. So i eagerly awaited the next book, and the next. But the luster started to fade, like i'm sure Richard Gere must have felt the same way with Julia Roberts character later on in their lives when he realized...dammit, she's just a hooker with a really huge mouth (which is cool, but not enough).

There are things that i definitely do not like. Relationships always seem sort of off, like there are few people that are friends simply to be friends. Cersei. All of the female characters in fact, especially Catelyn Stark. I still think the series is fairly epic, but overall, its starting to really disappoint.

And as might be gathered from my last response, i felt his last book in the series was stinky poo. Just total crap, and not because the writing is bad, but because the train has skidded off the tracks and all of the passengers are dead - except for Bruce Willis, because he's Unbreakable.

Like i said, Abercrombie has some problems, but they are small, and forgivable. I can imagine Ferro getting killed, i can ignore too many comments about Glokta sucking on his gums in pain. But there are a number of things going for it that makes it superior to GRRM in my mind.
1) He actually plotted it out properly and then finished it in good time. GRRM had an idea that didn't work, he shit the bed, so now he's ignoring it by working on other work. This languishing in the waste land thing is not really conducive to me wanting to purchase the next book.

2) The series got better as it went along. The same cannot be said for ASOIAF. AFFC was garbage. His authors note in the end felt like a complete co-out. Instead of getting to see what most of the major characters were doing, we get Brienne of Tarth...who is completely unlikable. Give me Ferro, at least she can do something. The last book was a major disappointment for me, and upon reflection, i think it is when the entire series was downgraded in my mind. It went from being books i could recommend to my friends, to now i don't even bother because it might be another ten years before he finishes, and i don't want them to hate me for recommending unfinished novels.

3) I love the Count of Monte Cristo, so multiple characters and plot threads are fine with me. The more complicated the better...as long as i care about them. There are more than a few plot threads in GRRM's work that i do not like and tend to skim through, which was most of those thrown into AFFC. Now as i have mentioned, i'm not a big fan of Logen's plot thread in First Law. Logen is ok, Bayaz is ok, Ferro is hate, and the rest are simply there for the journey. But its only one thread. In Song, there are a number of threads that are annoying.

4) This is a wierd one, but there seems to be no real relationships in GRRM. Everyone has a motive for being friends with someone else, save for perhaps Jon and Sam Tarly...who i hate. But at least in Law you get the sense that Dogman, Tul, Three Trees and the rest are close. That at least creates a bond of some sort. I don't get that feeling in GRRM's work.


Anyways, thats enough for now. I like the books, nuff said.

[Sheep the Evicted]

Nope. I'm one of those who put him in my top ten list. I think the problem, as is the problem with most book/movie reviews, is the hype. It creates unrealistic expectations.

Personally i read the reviews and i watered down the hype and got exactly what i was expecting. An immensely enjoyable series. I thought the first was decent, i thought the second was very good and i thought the third was excellent.

True, its not as profound as Martin but i certainly found myself enjoying passages in TFL at least as much as i did in Martin's. At the very least its a finished series.

I would rank him between Martin and Lynch. I hate Erikson who's lost the plot and i hate the fact that the preaching comes before the story in Bakkers work.

[Vethnar]

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1548905' date='Oct 9 2008, 07.10']I understand that this is a web site dedicated to GRRM.[/quote]
(big snip)

[quote]And after the steaming load of crap that was AFFC[/quote]

Isn't it somewhat inappropriate to make a characterization like this on a web site dedicated to GRRM? I'm getting increasingly annoyed by the frequent denigration of AFFC, a book I personally found at least as good as the previous volumes of ASoIaF, and which contains the (in my view) most awesome chapter in the series so far (the Kingsmoot). It is OK to state that you didn't care for it, but using phrases like "steaming load of crap", without even qualifying it with an "IMHO", is more than a little tactless on a GRRM message board.

[TakLoufer]

I wouldn't say it was a steaming pile of crap, but it was definately my least favorite book of ASOIAF. The Brienne chapters were kind of pointless, just an excuse to have a pair of eyes on the common folk, really. But I did like the Cersei chapters; they were comedy gold.

On the other hand, one thing that really bugged me about Cersei was the Maggie backstory that Martin tacked on. It seems obvious that since the five year gap is caput GRRM needed to accelarate the time table a bit. To do this he needed Cersei to make a mess of things [i]really fast[/i]. She needed to be not just arrogant, ruthless, and rash, but [i]fucking crazy[/i]. Hence the Maggie prophecy, which was never referred to before.

It's not a retcon, seeing as it doesn't contradict anything that came before, but it feels contrived, and it's what I mean when I say GRRM is in danger of losing control. I think he introduced the Maggie thing as a "patch" for the missing five year gap. Littlefinger even points this out when he says he didn't think Cersei would ruin everything [i]so fast.[/i] Without the prophecy, she wouldn't, so Martin had to make it up.

It makes me wonder what other things he'll have to introduce as a "patch."

Now, as for Abercrombie, TFL may not be as complex as ASOIAF, but it didn't "grow in the telling" and become unwieldy. Abercrombie planned on a trilogy and it stayed a trilogy.

[Slynt]

[quote]A Song of Fire and Ice was a life changing experience? Seriously? And Empire Strikes Back? Now, it was a great movie, by far the best of all the Star Wars movies. But its not really even on the radar anymore for me. Great movie, but there have been so many great movies since then. There have been a great many movies that surpass that movie, the latest Batman being one of them. Rose tinted glasses perhaps?[/quote]

The glasses are obviously a tad rose tinted, as I have been a [i]Star Wars[/i] fan since I was very young up until the prequel trilogy ruined the saga. But the old Star Wars films definitely had a very strong hold on me for the longest time; they have influenced me in many ways, heck a day doesn't go by where I don't say or do anything somehow related to those films. I am sure you have noticed there are a lot of geeks in the world being completely under the spell of [i]Star Wars[/i] or [i]The Lord of the Rings[/i], two very powerful franchises, and [i]A Song of Ice and Fire[/i] captivates me with that same, indescribable appeal.

[quote]When i first read GRRM, i picked the book off the shelf by chance. I was not really captivated until the death of Ned, which shocked the crap out of me. So i eagerly awaited the next book, and the next. But the luster started to fade, like i'm sure Richard Gere must have felt the same way with Julia Roberts character later on in their lives when he realized...dammit, she's just a hooker with a really huge mouth (which is cool, but not enough).[/quote]


[quote]There are things that i definitely do not like. Relationships always seem sort of off, like there are few people that are friends simply to be friends. Cersei. All of the female characters in fact, especially Catelyn Stark. I still think the series is fairly epic, but overall, its starting to really disappoint.[/quote]

I'm not that fond of Jon Snow, his chapters, his character arc.. but his chapters are for the most part still written exceptionally well compared to other fantasy novels.. but with so many POVs you kind of have to expect that not everything can be equally great. Catelyn Stark I find especially well written, as opposed to you. I really believe in the character.

[quote]And as might be gathered from my last response, i felt his last book in the series was stinky poo. Just total crap, and not because the writing is bad, but because the train has skidded off the tracks and all of the passengers are dead - except for Bruce Willis, because he's Unbreakable.[/quote]

I think you are being pretty harsh on [i]A Feast for Crows[/i] here; I agree it cannot compare to the first three books in the series, there is a distinct drop in flow and style, but has enough good moments to give GRRM the benefit of the doubt; to return to [i]Star Wars[/i] once more, I feel this book is more of a [i]Return of the Jedi[/i] than a [i]The Phantom Menace[/i].

[quote]Like i said, Abercrombie has some problems, but they are small, and forgivable. I can imagine Ferro getting killed, i can ignore too many comments about Glokta sucking on his gums in pain. But there are a number of things going for it that makes it superior to GRRM in my mind.[/quote]

I got pretty tired of Glokta's inner monologues - at times I skipped them entirely, cause I knew it would be either sarcasm or self-pity. Still, I liked the character well enough, reminded me a bit of Tyrion but not nearly as well drawn or witty.

[quote]1) He actually plotted it out properly and then finished it in good time. GRRM had an idea that didn't work, he shit the bed, so now he's ignoring it by working on other work. This languishing in the waste land thing is not really conducive to me wanting to purchase the next book.[/quote]

What idea didn't work? I don't think Abercrombie plotted it out anymore than GRRM did; only GRRM's plans changed halfway through and he decided to follow his new ideas, because he thinks it will be for the better. I'm sure that Abercrombie would have done the same if he halfway through [i]Before they are Hanged[/i] decided that, wait a minute, I have a better idea..

[quote]2) The series got better as it went along. The same cannot be said for ASOIAF. AFFC was garbage. His authors note in the end felt like a complete co-out. Instead of getting to see what most of the major characters were doing, we get Brienne of Tarth...who is completely unlikable. Give me Ferro, at least she can do something. The last book was a major disappointment for me, and upon reflection, i think it is when the entire series was downgraded in my mind. It went from being books i could recommend to my friends, to now i don't even bother because it might be another ten years before he finishes, and i don't want them to hate me for recommending unfinished novels.[/quote]

Well, I thought that AGoT > ACoK > ASoS, so for three long fat volumes, the story got better and better. I liked the Brienne of Tarth chapters well enough after the second read, while Ferro was very one-dimensional. And there were enough major characters weren't there? Just not Tyrion, Jon and Daenerys. There is more depth in AFFC and it really benefited from a second and third reread, at least in my case.

[quote]4) This is a wierd one, but there seems to be no real relationships in GRRM. Everyone has a motive for being friends with someone else, save for perhaps Jon and Sam Tarly...who i hate. But at least in Law you get the sense that Dogman, Tul, Three Trees and the rest are close. That at least creates a bond of some sort. I don't get that feeling in GRRM's work.[/quote]

The company of Northerners in The First Law was something I absolutely liked; Logen, Dogman, Rudd, Forley the Weakest, Harding Grim, Tul Duru, Black Dow... great bunch of despicable bastards. A plot strand in ASOIAF featuring similar characters would be awesome - the nearest we got is Tyrion, Bronn, Shagga etc and that was cool. I have to agree that I miss a "bonding fellowship" in ASOIAF but then again, there never was in ASOIAF from the get-go.

[quote]. The Brienne chapters were kind of pointless, just an excuse to have a pair of eyes on the common folk, really.[/quote]

There's always a point to a story arc, and if that point is getting a better look at the war as seen from the common folk, that's just as valid a point as any other?

[quote]On the other hand, one thing that really bugged me about Cersei was the Maggie backstory that Martin tacked on. It seems obvious that since the five year gap is caput GRRM needed to accelarate the time table a bit. To do this he needed Cersei to make a mess of things really fast. She needed to be not just arrogant, ruthless, and rash, but fucking crazy. Hence the Maggie prophecy, which was never referred to before.[/quote]

Definitely the worst decision on GRRM's part in the creation of his series.

[quote]Now, as for Abercrombie, TFL may not be as complex as ASOIAF, but it didn't "grow in the telling" and become unwieldy. Abercrombie planned on a trilogy and it stayed a trilogy.[/quote]

..yet Last Argument of Kings ends with enough loose ends for Abercrombie to continue the tale at a later point.

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

So I finished the trilogy. I felt the first was above average, verging on the good, the second was good, and the third perhaps very good. My view is the trilogy could have been [i]much[/i] better if Abercrombie had devoted less effort to screwing with reader expectations.

By the time I was, oh, a hundred pages into the third book, the only question I had left was just how far Abercrombie would take his, oh, let's call it subversion of what he'd set up.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

[quote name='Slynt' post='1549717' date='Oct 9 2008, 21.29']..yet Last Argument of Kings ends with enough loose ends for Abercrombie to continue the tale at a later point.[/quote]


I sincerely hope he won't do it, though. What makes this ending so good is that we expect things to stay this way. Any change for the better may only diminish the impact, IMHO.

[Arthmail]

[b]Vethnar[/b]:
"Isn't it somewhat inappropriate to make a characterization like this on a web site dedicated to GRRM? I'm getting increasingly annoyed by the frequent denigration of AFFC, a book I personally found at least as good as the previous volumes of ASoIaF, and which contains the (in my view) most awesome chapter in the series so far (the Kingsmoot). It is OK to state that you didn't care for it, but using phrases like "steaming load of crap", without even qualifying it with an "IMHO", is more than a little tactless on a GRRM message board"


Funny, i've had this discussion before, on other sites. I was on a Tolkien site and proclaimed that i have always had a strong dislike for Hobbits. I thought the thread was going to implode with the sheer response of anger injected into it, but by the end, it was all good and everyone realized that my point was correct...at least in my own eyes. That is the point of forums such as this. I don't need to put the intellectual cop-out that is "IMHO", as some sort of preface to a statement. I've already participated in threads where i discuss my complete disdain for AFFC. I am not going to get into it in detail every time that i bring it up in a conversation. The fact that i am participating on this site, i am of the belief that everyone is expressing their opinion without assuming that their view points trump anothers. This isn't a political debate, this a web site dedicated to an author. But as you can see, we are in the literature section, not even in the main area dedicated to GRRM. In any case, everything that i state is my own opinoin.

If you're getting annoyed with the denigration of AFFC, tough. You like the book, thats great, i respect your opinion but i do not share it. Simply assuming that because the site is devoted to GRRM that it has to be some sort of echo chamber for everyone proclaiming their love for his every accomplishment is missing the point of having open discussions on any given subject.

The Kingsmoot chapter was awesome, but it failed to advance the book or the series. It felt more like a tangent off in left field while GRRM tried to figure out how the hell he was going to get himself back on track. I loved the chapter, but throwing in Ironborn POV's only diluted the story even further. Same with the Vipers daughters, and Sir Arys Oakheart. I felt that it failed the overall theme of the books, in that nothing of importance happened. While that might change when the next book is delivered (somewhere around 2014) because it shows what the book was trying to accomplish, i doubt it. Besides, you should never have your next book come out to try and shore up the gaps of the last book. From an authors standpoint, it felt like he was treading water.

As for tactless, are you kidding me? Honest opnion in an open forum like this is rarely tactless. Now, when i totally blasted Brian Ruckley's book Winterbirth, and he showed up, that was tactless. It also lacked style, kindness, and even a modicum of social appropriateness.

[b]Slynt[/b]: I agree, GRRM's novels did get progressively better...until AFFC. I was terribly disappointed by the book, and the sour taste that developed in my mouth damaged the rest of the series in my mind.

[Ran]

I don't mind a quick sharing of opinion about other series to the First Law trilogy ... but the topic _is_ the First Law trilogy, so lets wrap up the digressions and stick to the subject. ;)

Abercrombie _is_ writing stories that follow after the events of the First Law, but they are not necessarily directly connected. That said, it seems to me that the book he'll be writing about the North and the fighting there will likely provide some sort of answer to the question of Ninefingers fate.

[Isis]

[quote name='Slynt' post='1547730' date='Oct 8 2008, 14.46'][i][b]No[/i] literature can blow me away anymore after [i]A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings[/i] and [i]A Storm of Swords[/i] (although a small part of me hopes it can still happen..)...[/b] but I enjoyed [i]The First Law[/i] trilogy for what it is, and is one of the very very few fantasy series I have managed to finish.[/quote]How sad.

[quote]2) The series got better as it went along. The same cannot be said for ASOIAF. AFFC was garbage.[/quote]ASOIAF is not a finished series though, so it can't really be compared to The First Law.

[arya_underfoot]

i'm halfway thru book 2 and absolutely loving it. true, abercrombie doesnt write with the depth as grrm or bakker, but so far i have found his writing to be extremely enjoyable. i cant remember the last time i laughed so much whilst reading a book.

[Tarapas Amran]

[quote name='Isis' post='1550557' date='Oct 10 2008, 11.41']ASOIAF is not a finished series though, so it can't really be compared to The First Law.[/quote]

Well, if you have a book that is worser than the one before it doesn't have to be finished, you already know that it didn't get progressively better all the time, hence no need to see it finished.

[Slynt]

What's so sad, Isis. That I am so overwhelmed by the quality of ASOIAF or that I can't find books to give me the same experience of reading something truly great? If you mean that I'm a geek or whatever, posting to an ASOIAF board has already firmly positioned both of us as geeks.