Jaime's presense in front of Rhaella's door

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='kuraz' post='1534272' date='Sep 28 2008, 08.00']What others think of him and his "Honour" in society, really doesn't matter at all (definitely not to him)[/quote]
Yeah, right. It must be some other reason that he always sulks and pouts about his shit for honour.
[quote]He's been labled a kingslayer and a sister-fucker, his reputation doesn't really have much of a chance of getting better, it's just unrealistic to think that Edmure would ever appreciate Jaime, especially in a time of war. I don't know why you're so fixated on his reputation. It's obviously shit.[/quote]Because [i]he's fixated on it[/i]. It's pretty obvious that he can't decide what he really wants to be; a chivalrous goody-two-shoes (though bad-ass) like Arthur Dayne who everyone loves, or terrible asshole like his father who everyone despises (and fears). And as a result of his confusion, he does things that are counterproductive to his own goals.

[quote]what does matter, is that he is in fact -doing- things that are moving things in a better direction, like sparing lives. Words are like wind, the threat did no damage at all, it was harmless. Get over it.[/quote]
If you don't think that words have consequences, I guess there's not much more to be said. Most people realise that the things a person says can cause real harm, of a sort that can't be undone sometimes. To those that hear, and to the one who spoke, words can have permanent effects.
[quote]I wasn't arguing Jaime's reputation in the eyes of other characters in the book, that's why I wasn't including them.[/quote]
That misses the point about Jaime's own desire for his reputation in his society to improve. Thinking about whether he'll be called "Goldenhand" after he hangs some outlaws indicates an interest in his own public image, which he [i]isn't going to improve[/i] by making baby-splattering threats. Not sure what's so terribly difficult to grasp about that.
[quote]It seems the Hound and Jaime are similar in that they both mock the phony 'chivalrous' mentality of Knights in their society, that is exploited by truly dishonorable people.[/quote]
They both share the same hypocrisy of pretended scorn for the acclaim for knightly honour while actually being quite bitter about the way it's meted out.

[kuraz]

I don't agree with your interpretation of his pov.

if Jaime is so interested in his reputation, why doesn't he just let it be publicly known that he killed Aerys because he was going to burn the city down? He keeps it to himself, and keeps the arrogant asshole image that comes with being a "kingslayer", to spite the people that name him that.

he thought of how people might call him goldenhand, because of the way they labled him kingslayer, it didn't necessarily mean that he cared for it.

and seriously, I was talking about his witty hollow threat to Edmure, not all 'words' exchanged in general. that's a really shallow deduction of what I said.

he made the comment to Edmure and Edmure alone(in his private tent), Edmure is a prisoner now. Do you really think it'll affect Jaime that much? that now Edmure just hates him a little more than he already did. No, light probably won't be shed on the cruel jape again.


I understand what your saying, theres no need to ask yourself why I can't "grasp" your view of the matter, I just don't agree with it.

there is a difference between appearing 'chivalrous' and 'honorable' within the eyes of society, and actually doing the right thing in a pretty shitty situation. I think he's going with the latter.

[A wilding]

[quote name='kuraz' post='1534309' date='Sep 28 2008, 14.24']... I was talking about his witty hollow threat to Edmure, not all 'words' exchanged in general. that's a really shallow deduction of what I said.

he made the comment to Edmure and Edmure alone(in his private tent), Edmure is a prisoner now. Do you really think it'll affect Jaime that much? that now Edmure just hates him a little more than he already did. No, light probably won't be shed on the cruel jape again.[/quote]
I like that :). Jaime understands the difference between wit and a threat. Wit is when he makes even Bolton chuckle with the "leave it to your Goat to get it backwards" line. A threat is when he thinks beforehand "must he make me say it?", and reduces everyone in earshot to a shocked silence when he does make it. By the way, one of the people present in Jaime's private tent was almost certainly a BwB spy, it is highly likely that the story is already spreading.

Incidentally, the reasons why Jaime did not tell anyone about the wildfire are probably a mixture of not wanting to try to explain himself to Ned after Ned looked at him with condemning "lord's eyes"; of not wanting to put himself in the position of trying to justify his actions to anyone at all; of a realisation that needing to stop KL being destroyed would not excuse him actually killing Aerys in many Westerosi people's eyes anyway; and of suspecting/knowing that the wildfire was not his sole reason for the deed. He clearly is not indifferent to his reputation, it comes up frequently in his interior monologues.

[Ski the Swift]

I'm pretty certain his page and squire's were inside the tent also when he made said threat.

Pia too maybe?

[kuraz]

ah you're right I forgot about that singer. they had a decent exchange right before that chapter ended, so it could be that he'll spread a good word, or not.


so far he's been true to his oath to catelyn, which may reach her.

[brandon blackfyre]

I put that trebuchet line that Jaime made down to him trying to sound like his father, and that it was brought on by his Aunt talking about how Tyrion was Tywin's "real" son and not him.
I think Jamie's character had definitely changed for the better since the death of his father whom he had some real issues with, but even from the grave Tywin's reputation forces Jaime to make stupid decisions.
That line will definitely come back to haunt him because I suspect Un-Cat had a tip-off for the ambush of Ser Ryman Frey's party from either Tom O'Sevens, Blackfish, or even the Queen of whores :P so it's possible that she already knows about what Jaime said and that is why she is certain he is an oath-breaker and she wants Brienne to kill him.
I'm not sure about before Tywin's death, but I think that through AFFC Jaime really does care about what people think of him and he wants to be remembered as something more then just "the Kingslayer". He has been studying the White Book and I think he genuinely wants to fill the rest of his page with noble deeds worthy of the legendary white brothers that proceeded him.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='kuraz' post='1534686' date='Sep 28 2008, 18.37']so far he's been true to his oath to catelyn, which may reach her.[/quote]

Catelyn was present when Roose Bolton stabbed her son through the heart while telling everyone "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." She has to believe Jaime was part of the plot at the Red Wedding. She also knows from Jaime's own mouth that he threw Bran from a window in order to silence him. She knows Jaime to be a liar in that Sansa was not freed, and both of her daughters are lost to her, contrary to the pledge of both Lannister brothers. If anything, Catelyn, in her reincarnation as a spirit of vengeance (aka Lady Stoneheart,) only exists to kill Jaime, Roose Bolton, and every Frey who walks the earth. What could possibly reach her to make her think Jaime is trying to keep his oath and is moving towards being an honorable man? We as readers may make that judgement, but there is no way in hell Lady Stoneheart does. If Catelyn every gets her hands on Jaime, he will be lucky if she doesn't flay him with her own fingernails while roasting him slowly for christmas dinner (yes, I know they don't celebrate christmas in Westeros, but you get the idea.)

[Guest Other-in-law]

Indeed, there really [i]is no[/i] news that's going to reach Catelyn's ears that will convince her that Jaime is keeping his oath. Only Jaime himself and the readers who have the benefit of his inner thoughts, have any basis at all to think he has, and even that involves a hefty dose of rationalisation. Bullying her brother into surrendering hardly meets the [i]spirit[/i] of his agreement to not take up arms against the Tullys...she's especially not going to be impressed with any technicality-based claim when it also involves Jaime stating the intention to fling [i]even more[/i] children of Cat's family into the stones of their own castles.

[kuraz]

yeah I've no doubt she'd hang him if she could, i wonder who's going to stop that undead bitch


the whole lord of light resurrection thing sounds kind of fishy to me

[Lampmonster]

[quote name='kuraz' post='1536841' date='Sep 30 2008, 07.35']yeah I've no doubt she'd hang him if she could, i wonder who's going to stop that undead bitch


the whole lord of light resurrection thing sounds kind of fishy to me[/quote]

I wonder who Brienne will have to fight if she asks for trial by combat. I've heard some suggest that the word she yelled was sword, and that they will cut her down and let her fight. Maybe she'll fight Uncat and win.

[kuraz]

it'd probably be Thoros, in the absence of Beric

[brandon blackfyre]

Lampmonster:[quote]I wonder who Brienne will have to fight if she asks for trial by combat. I've heard some suggest that the word she yelled was sword, and that they will cut her down and let her fight. Maybe she'll fight Uncat and win.[/quote]The more times I read that last Brienne chapter, the more I agree that probably the only word that would save her from the noose is "sword". They give her the choice of noose or sword, but by choosing the sword it would be taking up the vow to kill Jaime not trial by combat. I don't think the BwB does trail by combat anymore, I think Cat would be especially against the practise after what happen with Tyrion at the Eyrie.

[Lampmonster]

[quote name='brandon blackfyre' post='1539728' date='Oct 2 2008, 04.47']Lampmonster:The more times I read that last Brienne chapter, the more I agree that probably the only word that would save her from the noose is "sword". They give her the choice of noose or sword, but by choosing the sword it would be taking up the vow to kill Jaime not trial by combat. I don't think the BwB does trail by combat anymore, I think Cat would be especially against the practise after what happen with Tyrion at the Eyrie.[/quote]

I've heard this espoused a lot but I don't see it. I just can't see Brienne making that deal. Maybe to save Pod's life, but it's a stretch. Maybe the word is Shazam and she turns into Captain Marvel.

[Denver]

Lem (the big guy with the Yellow Cloak) might be a strong enough contender to deal with Brienne - if there is indeed a trial by combat.

And further, I can't recall which BwB Lem rides with - Edric/Beric, or Lady Stoneheart.

But, [i]if[/i] Lem is with Catelyn, and [i]if[/i] there is going to be a trial by combat, there's your champion.

[AxB]

I haven't posted here for years. But anyway, I think the major concept of the series is the lack of difrentiation between good and evil. At the end of AGOT, the vast majority of readers will be desperate for the Good Starks to destroy the Evil Lannisters, yes? (Especially since there's nothing to prove the Tyrion wasn't behind the attempted assasination of Bran)

Now in the intervening period before that happens, we see the unimpeachably good Starks (Robb and Ned) killed, and the others all going through great changes (Sansa learning politics, Arya becoming as assasin, Bran some sort of wizard, Rickon we don't know, but he's always described as fierce even as a three year old). MEANWHILE the unimpeachably bad Lannisters (Tywin and Joffery) have also died, Tyrion is revealed as an innocent victim of circumstance, as is Jaime to an extent, Cersei ends AFFC in a position where she's facing a good deal of suffering in her near and distant future, and Lannisters we earlier knew little about (Kevan, Genna, Tommen, Myrcella and Lancel) have come to the fore and proven to not actually be completely inhuman.

Is it not possible that when the Starks do take their revenge on the Lannisters, it will be a bararic and unprovoked attack on some innocent people who've actually done nothing to themselves deserve it?

[VersusAllOdds]

it might be out of my great hatred towards jaime but, here's my opinion:
he didn't do everything to find cat's daughters. fact. he sent out a woman with a super-sword (ok, she's a great fighter) to find both of them. catelyn gave him FREEDOM and probably saved his life. he is a KNIGHT of the KINGSGUARD and the only option for him to fullfill his oath was to do EVERYTHING in his power to secure the two girls. he's a powerful lannister and it was his duty to dedicate more time/money/hardship into fullfilling the oath, just like a priest must have more moral than a common believer, his responsibility is greater.
i don't like the whole concept of GRRM making the readers feel compation towards jaime. remember him pushing bran, killing ned's guardsmen and injuring ned, incest with cersei, his rude conversation with catelyn (while in dungeon) and to brienne, and of course, his conversation with blackfish, which is IMO the peak of battle between old jaime and new jaime.
of course that jaime is partially a young boy that wants to match the sword of the morning, but jaime is nowhere to compare with either dayne, barristan the bold, gerold hightower...

and i fully understand lady stonehearth. she believes that lannisters are guilty for: killing her beloved husband, first son, and two girls AND in the bitchy manner. there is no way on earth (westerosi earth) she will EVER stop hunting down jaime...

[kuraz]

I wouldn't say Jaime is "no where to compare" to those characters, for all you know he could have been better.

It is said Quorin was a very strong swordsman, and when he lost most of his right hand and started training with his left, he became much stronger than he already was.

Jaime pretty much needs to retrain himself just like Quorin, which could in the end make him even stronger than he already was, given the experience he has now.


I guess we'll see if he can put all that late night training to good use if he champion's Cersei.

[Daemrion]

[quote name='VersusAllOdds' post='1542796' date='Oct 5 2008, 07.46']it might be out of my great hatred towards jaime but, here's my opinion:
he didn't do everything to find cat's daughters. fact. he sent out a woman with a super-sword (ok, she's a great fighter) to find both of them. catelyn gave him FREEDOM and probably saved his life. he is a KNIGHT of the KINGSGUARD and the only option for him to fullfill his oath was to do EVERYTHING in his power to secure the two girls. he's a powerful lannister and it was his duty to dedicate more time/money/hardship into fullfilling the oath, just like a priest must have more moral than a common believer, his responsibility is greater.[/quote]

Would just like to point out that you should remember the other oath(s) that he has as a Knight of the Kingsguard. To serve the Throne. To protect the King. And we do know that Sansa Stark is currently been found guilty of treason. It would be [b] treason [/b] for Jaime to visibly help Sansa, escape the clutches of Cersei and Tommen, regardless of any personal oath he swore to Catelyn under sword point.

He has to break an oath either way.

[Knight of the Teabags]

Going back to the original question here's one to mull over.

Jaime was there at Daenerys' beginning and was unable to do anything to stop it. Thus, could he also symbolically be there at her end and equally be able to stop it or even be means of her end?

[BloodoftheDragon]

[quote name='Daemrion' post='1525915' date='Sep 21 2008, 04.53']I think that Jaime is inherently good, but has been so constantly told that he is bad, that he ends up just doing bad things almost self-fulfillingly. It's like he gave up after Aerys trying to be good, but in the end his instinct is to protect the ones he loves, which I think is good.[/quote]

I must admit, for the first couple books I hate him, after all he's an oathbreaker, the kingslayer, and he tried to kill Bran. My respect for him went up a great deal when he tells Brienne he killed Aerys to prevent him from setting the whole f'in' city on fire.