Syrio neither dead nor Jaqen

[Vendetto]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1587101' date='Nov 12 2008, 16.47']Really? What's your source for that....that it's dishonourable in Braavos to finish off an opponent after disarming them?[/quote]
I believe it's the Samwell chapter where he meets arya unknowingly, she tells him that all Braavosi want to fight anyone with a sword in their hand to prove their better. Something like that. I can't remember exactly, I'm at work right now, but I'll look for the passage at home.
And if he doesn't have a sword in his hand, syrio would already know he's better. But on top of that, like i said, it made sense to leave trant alive.

[The_BlauerDragon]

Perhaps Syrio was secretly a Red Priest... and he did kill Trant (by poking a stick through his eye slit)... Then he waited a few minutes and gave Trant the Kiss of Fire...

Hmm... Now that I've said it, I might need to add that to my crackpot theories list...

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Vendetto' post='1587122' date='Nov 12 2008, 19.02']I believe it's the Samwell chapter where he meets arya unknowingly, she tells him that all Braavosi want to fight anyone with a sword in their hand to prove their better.[/quote]
Oh, just [i]that[/i].

[i] "If you wear a sword at night it means you can be challenged. Did you[/i] want[i] to fight them?" "The bravos never bother anyone without a sword. Not even stupid camel cunts like Terro and Orbelo."[/i]

I interpret that as simply being about [i]starting[/i] a fight, not about [i]ending[/i] one that's already started. And in this case, the fact that Meryn Trant had ordered the redcloaks to kill Syrio, and then started, y'know, swinging his sword at him repeatedly can be taken as evidence that Trant did indeed want to fight Syrio. ;)
[quote]But on top of that, like i said, it made sense to leave trant alive.[/quote]
Merely saying it doesn't make it so. If he's concerned about someone raising an alarm and sending even more dozens of guards after him, who's the greater risk...a [i]living[/i] Trant who can start shouting seconds later as soon as he's out of immediate peril, or some random person who happens to stumble across Trant's corpse what? Fifteen, twenty minutes later? An hour? Three hours? Who knows?

No, it really doesn't make any sense to leave Trant alive at all.

[mormont]

[quote name='Ko Coopy' post='1587032' date='Nov 12 2008, 22.41']I'm following you. However, I could argue that a serious hint that he is alive is that we didn't actually see him die and no other character actually refers to him as dead. Stay with me for a second here. As for foreshadowing, it seems like Arya runs across quite a few people who have qualities that remind us of Syrio. The Jaqen theory has been eliminated (to my satisfaction at least) and I'm only through part of the second book of my re-read so this is from memory as best I can. Even though she is meeting different people - the similarities could foreshadow a meeting with the still alive Syrio....could. I think there are times when GRRM's foreshadowing is subtle (depending on how you view the R+L=J theory, that might be a good example. I think that one is subtle as a chainsaw but that's another thread).

I mean - they referred to Septa Mordane's head being on a pike (granted it was to Sansa and Syrio was Arya's teacher) but made no mention of Syrio.[/quote]

You could argue that... but it would be pretty weak stuff and it would still be entirely atypical of GRRM's writing. By that logic, almost [i]anyone[/i] could be alive and anything that seemed to happen might not have. That is not how GRRM writes.

Precisely because this is a work of fiction and anything can happen if the author says so, we as readers can't use 'this is theoretically possible' as an argument in favour of a crackpot theory. It's theoretically possible that, as I say, the last three books could be revealed as a dream, but does that make it a viable theory? No. We need to draw a line between 'theoretically possible' and 'plausible in the context of the story'. That's where the burden of proof lies, because when the author does things that don't meet that burden of plausibility, he has failed to do his job as a storyteller.

As a rough rule of thumb, any theory that requires a lot of complicated and unlikely stuff to be going on in the background unknown to the reader is not likely to meet that standard. In this case, there's an entire fight sequence with unlikely results, a difficult escape that is never referred to, and other suppositions. Another good indicator is when the theory relies mostly or exclusively on the absence of certain selected pieces of evidence against it. This is the case with your post above.

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='mormont' post='1587597' date='Nov 13 2008, 10.19']You could argue that... but it would be pretty weak stuff and it would still be entirely atypical of GRRM's writing. By that logic, almost [i]anyone[/i] could be alive and anything that seemed to happen might not have. That is not how GRRM writes.[/quote]
What could be GRRM's reason why he chooses not to tell us plain and simple, Syrio was killed by Trant? Why is he working around that? If he is just killed, and GRRM doesn't want to make it mysterious, why doesn't he just say so?

Ofcourse, he says it via Arya. The same girl that sees with her eyes that the hound is dead. Is that the evidence? Or the dancing master interferred? An armoured knight killing a waterdancer is obvious? Bronn is still alive, the red Viper would have been alive if he wasn't interrested in a confession. That was merely a snake against a mountain, and yet, the snake won. That's supporting the theory that Syrio does have a chance.

And about supposed characters to be death, finished, unlikely to be seen again... I think there a lots of examples, already back or in the making, that we already know of in the books. One more or less wouldn't be a problem, it doesn't come out of nowhere.

[mormont]

[quote name='Roi Woodt' post='1587632' date='Nov 13 2008, 10.16']What could be GRRM's reason why he chooses not to tell us plain and simple, Syrio was killed by Trant? Why is he working around that? If he is just killed, and GRRM doesn't want to make it mysterious, why doesn't he just say so?[/quote]

See above. This is projection, pure and simple: you trying to project your desires onto GRRM's intentions, inferring 'choices' where none exist.

Where is there the slightest hint that GRRM is 'working around' anything? Has he given any indication that there is a mystery here? Has he even suggested in interview that there is any doubt over this question? No.

You cannot claim the fact that GRRM did not declared Syrio dead explicitly enough for your satisfaction as evidence that he is alive. That tells us something about what you would like, but nothing about the credibility of the theory.

[quote]And about supposed characters to be death, finished, unlikely to be seen again... I think there a lots of examples, already back or in the making, that we already know of in the books. One more or less wouldn't be a problem, it doesn't come out of nowhere.[/quote]

Are there 'lots of examples'? Or is this like the 'mobility wins fights' thing - there are lots of situations you consider to be the same, but which aren't actually comparable?

Characters have been [i]reported[/i] dead at second- or third-hand, and proved to be alive. But this is obviously not the same thing. Inaccurate reports are a common and recurring theme in the books. Characters have been resurrected by magic: but again, not the same. They actually died.

I cannot think of a single example of a situation like Syrio's, where a character was left facing almost certain death, was presumed dead by another character, disappeared for three books, did not appear to serve any further plot purpose in that time, needed an incredibly unlikely sequence of events to explain his survival, but suddenly popped up out of nowhere anyway. Nothing even slightly like that has happened as far as I recall.

Is it impossible that it could happen? As I say, no. Is it [i]unbelievable[/i] that it would happen? Yes.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Roi Woodt' post='1587632' date='Nov 13 2008, 11.16']What could be GRRM's reason why he chooses not to tell us plain and simple, Syrio was killed by Trant? Why is he working around that? If he is just killed, and GRRM doesn't want to make it mysterious, why doesn't he just say so?[/quote]Because it reinforces Arya's development. "See with your eyes" is the final lesson, and we don't need to be told that Arya think he has no chance to know it. We are not shown what we can "see with our eyes", although it's pretty well laid out before our eyes by Arya.

[ogbebaba]

[quote name='mormont' post='1587597' date='Nov 13 2008, 05.19']As a rough rule of thumb, any theory that requires a lot of complicated and unlikely stuff to be going on in the background unknown to the reader is not likely to meet that standard.[/quote]

every time someone sayes rule of thumb I think of "Rosingurdle Bumgardner "(how ever you spell it) from BOONDOCK SAINTS

IMHO I think GRRM Didn't show syrio die so people could believe what they want. kinda like his opinion on name pronounceations (its pronounced how ever you want it to be) and that being said i don't think we will ever see syrio again nor will we ever get defonate prouf

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='mormont' post='1587647' date='Nov 13 2008, 11.47']Where is there the slightest hint that GRRM is 'working around' anything? Has he given any indication that there is a mystery here? Has he even suggested in interview that there is any doubt over this question? No.[/quote]
He managed to not answer this question three times already (see the citadel). If it is really that obvious, GRRM normally doesn't keep it such a secret.

[quote]You cannot claim the fact that GRRM did not declared Syrio dead explicitly enough for your satisfaction as evidence that he is alive. That tells us something about what you would like, but nothing about the credibility of the theory.[/quote]
For me, Syrio is dead as well, except not by the hands of Meryn Trant.

[quote]I cannot think of a single example of a situation like Syrio's, where a character was left facing almost certain death, was presumed dead by another character, disappeared for three books, did not appear to serve any further plot purpose in that time, needed an incredibly unlikely sequence of events to explain his survival, but suddenly popped up out of nowhere anyway. Nothing even slightly like that has happened as far as I recall.[/quote]
It wouldn't be such a great story if GRRM kept repeating himself. But for all those things apart, I could find characters.

Errant Bard,
[quote]Because it reinforces Arya's development. "See with your eyes" is the final lesson, and we don't need to be told that Arya think he has no chance to know it. We are not shown what we can "see with our eyes", although it's pretty well laid out before our eyes by Arya.[/quote]
IIRC, she also saw with the same eyes that Sandor would be dead. Maybe she needs glasses.. ;)

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Roi Woodt' post='1588667' date='Nov 14 2008, 08.28']IIRC, she also saw with the same eyes that Sandor would be dead. Maybe she needs glasses.. ;)[/quote]Not quite. She saw he was feverish but she left him like that because she didn't want him to die, it's reflected by her prayer, she leaves him out of it before even that event. Either way, "see with your eyes" isn't about seeing the future, it's about seeing the reality, I don't think it makes seeing that Syrio has no chance winning the fight wrong because she saw that Sandor was feverish and likely to die slowly. She was right in both cases, but the writing device of not showing the conclusion need only be used when we as readers are shown she learns the lesson.

I don't understand what you are arguing about, in truth. I answered your question about the purpose of not showing the end of Syrio's last stand, in term of writing tricks, and I think it makes sense, but it makes no sense that GRRM would have to repeat the same trick over and over when it's not warranted anymore.

[Roi Woodt]

I wanted to show that the conclusion that Arya makes in her mind, based on the things she sees, do not take into account possible interferrences. See Sandor. He should die slowly there, that is what she sees. In Syrio's case. Syrio would have died there, if no-one had interferred. And I think that is what happened. She can't see what is happening outside that room, maybe someone else storms in immediately after she left. Maybe that is, as Mormont says, projecting my desires upon it. However, IMO, it is more likely that someone interferred in a crowded place like Kings Landing, than in the middle of a forest.

[AvengingAryaFan]

[quote name='mormont' post='1581445' date='Nov 7 2008, 12.16']I wonder, sometimes, if people actually read what I write...

ogbebaba, I have already addressed your point. Syrio intends to sacrifice himself to give Arya the maximum time to escape. He is [i]not[/i] aiming to give her a ten-second head start, or even a five-minute one, and then run himself. That would not be enough. He knows the second he runs, Trant is going to be off on Arya's tail. So he is aiming to give her every second he can buy with his life.[/quote]
Mormont, I've read your posts, but your certainty is unwarranted. Conclusory statements aren't even evidence, let alone proof. In particular, you provide zero evidence for your statement (underlining added): "Syrio [u]intends to sacrifice himself[/u] to give Arya the maximum time to escape." You may have extrapolated it from some personal ideal of honor, but there's no textual support, and it's contrary to our knowledge of Syrio, human nature, and logic. Defending Arya is heroic, but only insofar as it gives her time to get away; Syrio dying doesn't make Arya one whit safer.

Your arguments fall apart without the premise that Syrio was bound to fight to the death.

Because Cersei is a demanding mistress, Trant would reasonably head for his target, Arya, as soon as he'd disarmed an old dancing master who momentarily got in the way. Why would Trant waste time or effort killing the old man, if he's not a threat to Trant and Trant has a job to do (catch Arya) that is becoming more difficult to complete by the moment? With Trant armored and the old man having only half a stick, he's no great threat.

Syrio would reasonably take advantage of his lightness and demonstrated speed to get beyond Trant's reach in the large room that saw him battle five Gold Cloaks at once. Trant hasn't time to be chasing Syrio around the room; but as soon as Trant returned his attention to the escaped Arya, Syrio would reasonably grab whatever sort of weapon was to hand with which he could continue to delay Trant. There was no need for Syrio to kill Trant, except for the convenience of stopping Trant's attacks. In fact, it would serve Syrio's purpose admirably if Trant continued to chase him; he would need to attack Trant only if he tried to follow Arya. He would have floated like a butterfly; stinging like a bee would have been gratuitous.

Syrio would reasonably keep an escape route open at his back. And as soon as Arya had sufficient lead that he felt Trant couldn't catch her - 30 seconds or more - he'd reasonably conclude that his mission was accomplished, [u]and that there was no further reason to fight[/u]. Refusing to run from a fight isn't the same as fighting and killing for no reason, even if that's an acceptable option; even Arya's bravos ultimately left Sam alone.

So the reasonable and prudent thing for Syrio to do is simply to accomplish his goal of letting Arya get away, then leave while the leaving is good. He might have disarmed Trant and then (on the evidence of Arya's statement of Braavosi ethics) chosen not to kill him (Arya's description implies that these ethics are strictly observed, and I don't believe there is a shred of evidence to support the conjecture that these ethics don't apply after a fight has already started). But there's no need for such a "victory." Syrio is successful if Arya escapes, and anything further has no heroic motivation.

Further, Arya "saw with her eyes" the situation when she left. So what? The sword swing that sheared his stick evidently didn't hit Syrio, and the physics of large swords would then permit Syrio a moment to dodge away. And Arya had "seen with her eyes" Syrio move with incredible speed in dealing with the five Gold Cloaks. What she saw with her eyes is consistent with all the possibilities of what happened after she left, and compels no particular conclusion.

I have no quarrel with those who would be annoyed if Syrio [i]didn't[/i] sacrifice himself to save Arya, or with the people who want Arya to get really dark, or want the series to be even more brutal than it already is. But it's fair to ask: if it's a worthy artistic flourish to kill off heroic characters, then why be so coy as to hide it from view? Why not take a paragraph to revel in the gruesome injustice of it, like at the Red Wedding?

Without postulating a duel to the death, which serves no purpose of either Syrio or Trant, there is simply no compelling reason to conclude that Syrio is most probably alive or most probably dead. Cersei's mention of Syrio's interference, without even a hint of his death, is suggestive evidence that balances the scales slightly in favor of his having escaped the Red Keep alive. His absence from further view in the series suggests he might have died ... but he could also have transformed to Jaqen H'ghar, or returned to Braavos for later interaction with Arya, or whatever.

[mormont]

[quote name='AvengingAryaFan' post='1590244' date='Nov 15 2008, 20.58']Mormont, I've read your posts, but your certainty is unwarranted. Conclusory statements aren't even evidence, let alone proof. In particular, you provide zero evidence for your statement (underlining added): "Syrio [u]intends to sacrifice himself[/u] to give Arya the maximum time to escape."[/quote]

Not at all. I refer you to the chapter as written for evidence. We are given every sign and indication that Syrio intended to sacrifice himself, short of him wearing a large hand-painted sign saying in letters a foot high 'I intend to sacrifice myself'.

[quote]You may have extrapolated it from some personal ideal of honor, but there's no textual support, and it's contrary to our knowledge of Syrio, human nature, and logic. Defending Arya is heroic, but only insofar as it gives her time to get away; Syrio dying doesn't make Arya one whit safer.[/quote]

Again, I ask you to read my previous posts. Syrio giving Arya a 30 second lead doesn't even [i]begin[/i] to make her safe. Even if he gave her five minutes or ten, that will most likely not be nearly enough. Giving Arya any head start that is less than the absolute most he can give her is not heroic. It's pointless.

And for Syrio not to have perceived this is absolutely contrary to our knowledge of him. For him not to act appropriately is absolutely contrary to our knowledge of him. Our knowledge of Syrio makes it all but certain that he was willing to sacrifice himself to buy Arya whatever time he could.

[quote]Because Cersei is a demanding mistress, Trant would reasonably head for his target, Arya, as soon as he'd disarmed an old dancing master who momentarily got in the way.[/quote]

You're suggesting that he disarmed Syrio and then just walked off? This is stretching. First it requires Trant to have disarmed rather than killed Syrio. Then it requires him to be disinclined to take ten seconds to finish him. Then it requires Syrio to be incapable of or unwilling to attempt to delay Trant further. It's just not credible

[quote]Why would Trant waste time or effort killing the old man, if he's not a threat to Trant and Trant has a job to do (catch Arya) that is becoming more difficult to complete by the moment? With Trant armored and the old man having only half a stick, he's no great threat.[/quote]

What time or effort? Ten seconds and Trant can [i]guarantee[/i] Syrio is no longer even a possible threat. (And the idea that he is not a threat because he's been disarmed is hard to credit, given what Trant has just seen him do.) To fail to kill Syrio requires Trant to be the biggest idiot in Kingsguard history.

The rest of your post is simply reiteration of old arguments already refuted. Frankly, Trant would almost certainly have to go out of his way to avoid killing Syrio. Your sequence of events where Syrio survives is not impossible, because nothing is impossible: but it requires a lot of 'cruft' - implausible behind-the-scenes events that rely on people behaving in odd ways. That, in this context, is worse. An author can make the impossible happen: but they do tend to avoid the implausible. ;)

[AvengingAryaFan]

[quote name='mormont' post='1590645' date='Nov 16 2008, 07.28']Not at all. I refer you to the chapter as written for evidence. We are given every sign and indication that Syrio intended to sacrifice himself, short of him wearing a large hand-painted sign saying in letters a foot high 'I intend to sacrifice myself'.[/quote]
Short, in other words, of any actual textual support.
[quote name='mormont' post='1590645' date='Nov 16 2008, 07.28']... Syrio giving Arya a 30 second lead doesn't even [i]begin[/i] to make her safe.[/quote]
Are you kidding? She was skidding through the kitchens in seconds. Syrio knows she's familiar with the area ... she's been chasing cats everywhere. 30 seconds, a minute tops, and Trant will never even see Arya's dust.
[quote name='mormont' post='1590645' date='Nov 16 2008, 07.28']... And for Syrio not to have perceived this is absolutely contrary to our knowledge of him. For him not to act appropriately is absolutely contrary to our knowledge of him.[/quote]
Agreed. We're just continents apart on what is appropriate. A short delay is ample, and unnecessary deaths on either side are beyond pointless.
[quote name='mormont' post='1590645' date='Nov 16 2008, 07.28']Our knowledge of Syrio makes it all but certain that he was willing to sacrifice himself to buy Arya whatever time he could.[/quote]
To the contrary, our knowledge of Syrio, as you acknowledged, convinces us that he will do what is appropriate -- delay Trant without unnecessary blood, especially his own.
[quote name='mormont' post='1590645' date='Nov 16 2008, 07.28']You're suggesting that he disarmed Syrio and then just walked off? This is stretching. First it requires Trant to have disarmed rather than killed Syrio.[/quote]
We [u]saw[/u] him disarm Syrio without killing him - that's the last thing Arya saw. And I'm not suggesting he would walk off - he'd better be running after Arya. Otherwise the game is over, and Syrio has already won.
[quote name='mormont' post='1590645' date='Nov 16 2008, 07.28']Then it requires him to be disinclined to take ten seconds to finish him.[/quote]
Five gold cloaks couldn't stop him, but our presumably slow, mediocre Trant can finish him in 10 seconds? Talk about not credible.
[quote name='mormont' post='1590645' date='Nov 16 2008, 07.28']Then it requires Syrio to be incapable of or unwilling to attempt to delay Trant further.[/quote]
To the contrary - if Trant went after Arya, Syrio would then pick up something to delay him with - a little tap with a broadsword should get his attention. Disarming Trant would be sweet, but unnecessary. Killing him would be needless bloodshed - OK, but not desirable.
[quote name='mormont' post='1590645' date='Nov 16 2008, 07.28']What time or effort? Ten seconds and Trant can [i]guarantee[/i] Syrio is no longer even a possible threat.[/quote]
There you go again with your incredible conclusions of Trant's extraordinary skill based on no evidence. We [u]know [/u]that Syrio is lightening fast, and we suspect that Trant is mediocre and somewhat slowed by armor, to boot. Trant just missed Syrio, and Syrio isn't likely to wait around in range for Trant to take another swing. Trant isn't likely to catch him if Syrio doesn't want to be caught.
[quote name='mormont' post='1590645' date='Nov 16 2008, 07.28'](And the idea that he is not a threat because he's been disarmed is hard to credit, given what Trant has just seen him do.) To fail to kill Syrio requires Trant to be the biggest idiot in Kingsguard history.[/quote]
Trant has a choice - chase Syrio or chase Arya. What, you think Syrio is just going to stand there meekly while Trant mows him down? We know that Syrio is a master of fighting by speed. Sheesh.
[quote name='mormont' post='1590645' date='Nov 16 2008, 07.28']The rest of your post is simply reiteration of old arguments already refuted. Frankly, Trant would almost certainly have to go out of his way to avoid killing Syrio.[/quote]
A bold, unsupported, gratuitously insulting dismissal, as credible as the rest of your position, that is, not. And then you repeat your absurd conclusion that Trant would have to go out of his way to avoid killing Syrio, again like Syrio is just standing there, unarmed, in his way. That would be one really stupid way to try to delay Trant ... and you've already acknowledged that Syrio isn't stupid.
[quote name='mormont' post='1590645' date='Nov 16 2008, 07.28']Your sequence of events where Syrio survives is not impossible, because nothing is impossible: but it requires a lot of 'cruft' - implausible behind-the-scenes events that rely on people behaving in odd ways. That, in this context, is worse. An author can make the impossible happen: but they do tend to avoid the implausible. ;)[/quote]
You repeatedly state the improbable as if it was nearly unavoidable, and this is no exception. Far from implausible, Syrio surviving if he wanted to is more probable than not. Whether GRRM wants him to reappear is up to the master, but the circumstances Arya saw weren't remotely hopeless for a man as quick and clever as Syrio.

[ogbebaba]

mormont its impressive how you state your opinion as fact not only fact but obvious fact

I am not going to try and argue with you about syrio's intent because we have no way of actually knowing his intentions or if he was suicidle as you seem to imply

[mormont]

[quote name='AvengingAryaFan' post='1590662' date='Nov 16 2008, 15.09']Short, in other words, of any actual textual support.[/quote]

Other than the support of the actual text, you mean?

This has been gone through several times. Either you find the text as written convincing, or you don't. For myself, I can see no ambiguity in it whatsoever. Arya sees that Syrio is doomed, and she later believes that he sacrificed himself for her. If you want to go with a different interpretation, that's fine. Time will tell. But the text doesn't support it: it does support the idea that Syrio was going to die and knew it.

[quote]Are you kidding? She was skidding through the kitchens in seconds. Syrio knows she's familiar with the area ... she's been chasing cats everywhere. 30 seconds, a minute tops, and Trant will never even see Arya's dust.[/quote]

No, I'm not kidding. I'm being realistic. The idea that Syrio's intention was to give her a 30-second head start and then run himself is just not tenable: it's complete cruft.

[quote]We [u]saw[/u] him disarm Syrio without killing him - that's the last thing Arya saw. And I'm not suggesting he would walk off - he'd better be running after Arya. Otherwise the game is over, and Syrio has already won.[/quote]

Indeed, but we did not see him run directly after Arya, ignoring Syrio. Instead, through Arya's eyes, we saw that he was going to kill Syrio.

[quote]Five gold cloaks couldn't stop him, but our presumably slow, mediocre Trant can finish him in 10 seconds? Talk about not credible.[/quote]

Trant is neither slow nor mediocre, nor is he taken unawares as the gold cloaks were: Syrio is unarmed, unarmoured, and doomed. 10 seconds might be hyperbole, but the point remains the same: the idea that Trant would leave Syrio alive for the sake of the time it would take to kill him is just not credible.

[quote]To the contrary - if Trant went after Arya, Syrio would then pick up something to delay him with - a little tap with a broadsword should get his attention. Disarming Trant would be sweet, but unnecessary. Killing him would be needless bloodshed - OK, but not desirable.[/quote]

You still need to get this straight. Either Syrio is no threat, or he is a threat. Here you're saying he's a threat. If that's true, Trant would have to be an idiot not to kill him.

[quote]There you go again with your incredible conclusions of Trant's extraordinary skill based on no evidence.[/quote]

Not 'extraordinary skill': just basic competence as a KG. And not on 'no evidence' - Jaime describes him as the most dangerous KG apart from himself. He rates him above decent swords such as Oakheart, who we know is capable of killing armed opponents in seconds.

[quote]Trant has a choice - chase Syrio or chase Arya.[/quote]

Not really a true description of the situation.

Trant can finish Syrio, or leave him alone. Failing to finish Syrio could cost him more time in his pursuit of Arya than doing so would, because it leaves a threat at his back. This is common sense. On the other hand, losing a few seconds in his pursuit of Arya is not necessarily a disaster: she's sealed in the Red Keep and there are Lannister guardsmen everywhere looking for her.

For that matter, by your own argument, it makes no sense for Trant to have bothered to break Syrio's sword in the first place, since he was unable to hurt Trant with it. Why not just shoulder past? Because people just don't behave like that, and for good reason. It simply makes no sense for Trant to leave Syrio alive at this point. It pretty much goes against human nature, common sense, and good tactics to leave an opponent alive when you can eliminate him with minimal effort.

(There is the possibility that he might have simply incapacitated Syrio with a blow, and then left it at that, of course. That's one way Syrio might have survived, I suppose.)

[quote]A bold, unsupported, gratuitously insulting dismissal, as credible as the rest of your position, that is, not.[/quote]

I'm sorry if you think that was gratuitously insulting. But it's a fact: the rest of your post is merely repeating points already refuted. There's no point going over and over the same ground.

[quote]Whether GRRM wants him to reappear is up to the master, but the circumstances Arya saw weren't remotely hopeless for a man as quick and clever as Syrio.[/quote]

Agreed to the first: but honestly, if the circumstances were 'not remotely hopeless', then why does Arya - who has a decent idea of Syrio's capabilities - think they are? Why do many readers, not just myself, agree? Why does the author clearly want to give the idea that they were? The situation certainly [i]appears[/i] hopeless, then, which does tend to make your claim difficult to support.

[Ko Coopy]

[quote]Agreed to the first: but honestly, if the circumstances were 'not remotely hopeless', then why does Arya - who has a decent idea of Syrio's capabilities - think they are? Why do many readers, not just myself, agree? Why does the author clearly want to give the idea that they were? The situation certainly appears hopeless, then, which does tend to make your claim difficult to support.[/quote]

I don't think Arya has any idea of Syrio's capabilities. When he takes out the five with Trant she is surprised because she sees Syrio move faster than she has ever seen a man move before. Arya only knows what he has shown her in her very basic training which probably barely scratches the surface for Syrio's skill.

You think that because other people agree with you, that is proof that you are right? That just leaves me speechless...

Because we never actually seem him die and no one actually refers to him as dead ("got in the way" does not equal dead, IMO), this is a situation that is clearly up for interpretation. Your assertions of "proof" that he is dead are as much opinion as all the hints and clues that we have provided that he could still be alive. It just depends on what you choose to accept.

I think many of us arguing the "alive" side actually agree that Syrio is probably dead. "Probably" is as far as I am willing to go though.

[mormont]

[quote name='Ko Coopy' post='1590845' date='Nov 16 2008, 19.56']I don't think Arya has any idea of Syrio's capabilities. When he takes out the five with Trant she is surprised because she sees Syrio move faster than she has ever seen a man move before. Arya only knows what he has shown her in her very basic training which probably barely scratches the surface for Syrio's skill.[/quote]

Well, that's sort of my point. She's seen him defeat five armed men... but she still thinks he has no chance.

Possibly Arya's assessment is wrong. But I have seen no credible explanation for why GRRM would write the story that way.

[quote]You think that because other people agree with you, that is proof that you are right? That just leaves me speechless...[/quote]

Good job I didn't say that, then. ;)

(Although there does come a point when you have to accept that if the majority of readers disagree with you, you should probably subject your opinions to some critical reconsideration. I've done it: sometimes I've changed my mind, even. :P)

What I actually said was that like Arya, many readers come away with the impression that Syrio is doomed. If the situation was 'not remotely hopeless', in fact, all those readers - like Arya - have misread a situation that ought to be totally clear. That seems unlikely.

It could still be that they are mistaken, of course. But even if so, it's probable that the situation is not as clear-cut as is being made out. The poster above is essentially claiming not only that Syrio is alive, but that it's obvious that he would survive. That's a higher hurdle to clear than merely claiming it's possible that he lived - and people are having some trouble clearing the lower hurdle, except insofar as 'anything is possible'.

I'd add that in general, GRRM does not actually mislead readers very often. The burden of proof is firmly on those who think it's possible that Syrio is alive, to show exactly how this could be. This they have not done. Syrio being dead is realistic, is completely congruent with all the available textual evidence, fits GRRM's style and leaves no loose ends or anomalies to be explained. That's as close to 'proved' as you are likely to get, on subjects of this type.

[ogbebaba]

[quote name='Ko Coopy' post='1590845' date='Nov 16 2008, 14.56']I think many of us arguing the "alive" side actually agree that Syrio is probably dead. "Probably" is as far as I am willing to go though.[/quote]

:agree:

[Maia]

[quote name='mormont' post='1590733' date='Nov 16 2008, 13.09']Not 'extraordinary skill': just basic competence as a KG. And not on 'no evidence' - Jaime describes him as the most dangerous KG apart from himself.[/quote]

Nope. As has been already mentioned up-thread, Jaime was talking about _Ser Mandon Moore_, not Trant. Trant is a little above Blount, but not remarkable in any way.

And yes, if it looked like killing Syrio would take time, Trant could have opted to retreat and tell the guardsmen where to follow Arya, because his orders were to capture her, ahead of everything else.

Personally, I don't feel that Syrio needs to return. In fact, I am a bit miffed with all the false deaths and resurrections there are already. I don't really see why we needed Beric and particularly Cat to come back to un-life. One of the big draws of the series for me was the feeling that it is a big, cold world that doesn't care about any particular character or family. But of course, Starks had to get a supernatural vengeance from beyond the grave, because they are so special... sigh.