Holocaust survivors to Mormons: Stop baptisms of dead Jews

[AutumnEvenings]

[quote name='Bill Starbuck' post='1692376' date='Feb 19 2009, 10.26']"We need to save these people, but all this Jew-ness is dragging their souls down! It's our job to rescue them! Let's scourge the Jew right out of them. Oop! Still a spot of Jew floating around somewhere in that one. Get them good and clean, now! Holy Father wants 'em good and clean! Scrub until there's no more Jewishness left and they're all sparkling Christian clean![/quote]Look, it's not [i]only[/i] Jews that are baptized ages after dying, it's [b]EVERYONE[/b]. Seriously, everyone. It's not about them being Jewish, it's about them being [b]non-Mormon[/b]. Mormons classify Jews as gentiles, along with Muslims, other Christians, pagans, athiests, etc. They [b]all[/b] don't get to go to heaven.

Secondly, as has been mentioned multiple times, according to Mormon doctrine, the souls can choose to accept or reject the baptism. So it's not [i]forcing[/i] anything; it's simply providing the option.

I get that this is stupid, and I find the notion of [i]any[/i] religion saying 'only we go to heaven' to be offensive, but I don't see how this is any worse than that. There's a choice involved, after all.

I really hate arguments like this because the Mormons really, really do a lot of horrid things. As in, for [b]real[/b]. Doubt it made much of a splash outside of Utah, but we just had our first real attempt at a gay civil rights movement, and it was utterly squashed by a bunch of LDS cronies in the state legislature. So guess what? You can still be fired for being gay, be discriminated against for housing for being gay, you can't adopt, you can't sue for wrongful death of a life partner, you can't get health insurance (except if you're employed by the federal government or Salt Lake County) for your gay partner, you obviously can't wed or have civil unions, you can't make medical decisions for each other, etc. etc. I would *love* to see people riled up over that, or over the sex abuse that plagues the Church and the Church-run boy-scouts (did you know being a Boy Scout leader is a Church calling in Utah? It is.), or any of the other real harms the LDS church does.

[Ken Stone]

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1692507' date='Feb 19 2009, 12.50']Would you think that someone is getting upset over nothing if it were to come to light that every time I masturbate I think of his/her wife taking my cock up her ass? Every time I get a boner, I am secretly living out a rape fantasy against that person's wife. Would that be cause to be upset? I mean, it's all in the privacy of my own bathroom, and it has no effect on anything. Surely then, it should cause nobody any grief to learn of this?[/quote]

I'm sure that you didn't mean for me to agree with this, but I do. If someone is masterbating in the privacy of their own home, and I don't know about it or what they are thinking, how could I possible be offended? If they tell me then there may be some cause for offense. That's my point with the Mormons. Are the Mormons telling the families of the specific people the are baptizing that they baptized them? If so then I am with you. It's offensive.

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1692507' date='Feb 19 2009, 12.50']Religion is a choice. A choice that, at least in the U.S., we hold it to be pretty fucking important. Tempering with someone's religion after their death, when they have no way to making protest, is to me, akin to spiritual necrophilia. You're forcing your religion onto someone who cannot protest. The argument that a disbelief in Mormon doctrines renders the forced conversion meaningless is specious, imo, because we wouldn't tolerate a group of Baptists waiting outside an atheist meeting to sprinkle water on them and proclaiming that the atheists have all now been baptized. We'd see that it is rude, offensive, and a violation of someone's choice of religion. The fact that the little bit of water makes no difference to the atheists' view on their afterlife is secondary to the disrespect and violation incurred by the act of sprinkling the water.[/quote]

But if the Baptists pray for Atheists in their private temple, to the degree that Atheists aren't even aware they are doing it, is that offensive? Really, that is what the Mormons are doing. They are praying, in private, for dead people. Fine a willing participant get's dunked. Whatever. Still a stretch to say it is offensive.

[Lord Mord]

AutumnEvenings,

[quote name='AutumnEvenings' post='1692525' date='Feb 19 2009, 10.59']Look, it's not [i]only[/i] Jews that are baptized ages after dying, it's [b]EVERYONE[/b]. Seriously, everyone. It's not about them being Jewish, it's about them being [b]non-Mormon[/b]. Mormons classify Jews as gentiles, along with Muslims, other Christians, pagans, athiests, etc. They [b]all[/b] don't get to go to heaven.[/quote]

I don't see your point. I never said the Church is anti-Semitic because of the baptisms, and even if I thought it were, the baptisms being Anti-Semitic is not exclusive of their also being Anti-Pagan, Anti-Muslim, or what-have-you. I was addressing the specific topic -- and I don't see how this part of your post fits in.



[quote]Secondly, as has been mentioned multiple times, according to Mormon doctrine, the souls can choose to accept or reject the baptism. So it's not [i]forcing[/i] anything; it's simply providing the option.[/quote]

Are there records of these people having turned down the baptism? Even anecdotes of its having happened? Also, isn't it all very well for the people doing it to keep those records and to make those reports?

Okay, so I tell you that my gay friend likes it when I call him faggot. I use the term [i]all the time[/i] to describe him, and he says, "Yeah, that's my favorite!" My friends of the Jewish faith come over for dinner, and I tell them jokingly they want to wash their hands before they eat, or else they'll get Jew all over their food. It's a riot.


Even if I [i]say[/i] they enjoy it, and hell, even if they really did (which you will never know if they do or not, because you have only me to answer for it), does that mean it's any less belittling? A person can come to accept being called names, but the names are still demeaning. It's the nature of those names.


Ditto this baptism. It's demeaning by its very nature. "You are not good enough as you are. You won't ever be good enough until you're Mormon. Your family failed you in life, and we will save you in death."


[quote]I get that this is stupid, and I find the notion of [i]any[/i] religion saying 'only we go to heaven' to be offensive, but I don't see how this is any worse than that. There's a choice involved, after all.[/quote]

You seriously believe the dead are choosing to be baptized?


[quote]I really hate arguments like this because the Mormons really, really do a lot of horrid things. As in, for [b]real[/b]. Doubt it made much of a splash outside of Utah, but we just had our first real attempt at a gay civil rights movement, and it was utterly squashed by a bunch of LDS cronies in the state legislature. So guess what? You can still be fired for being gay, be discriminated against for housing for being gay, you can't adopt, you can't sue for wrongful death of a life partner, you can't get health insurance (except if you're employed by the federal government or Salt Lake County) for your gay partner, you obviously can't wed or have civil unions, you can't make medical decisions for each other, etc. etc. I would *love* to see people riled up over that, or over the sex abuse that plagues the Church and the Church-run boy-scouts (did you know being a Boy Scout leader is a Church calling in Utah? It is.), or any of the other real harms the LDS church does.[/quote]

Yeah, the LDS needs to be taken to task for a lot of shit. Let's just not downplay some of it, only because it gets in the way of the rest of it, yeah?

[Ken Stone]

[quote name='Bill Starbuck' post='1692569' date='Feb 19 2009, 13.17']You seriously believe the dead are choosing to be baptized?[/quote]

You seriously believe the dead can be baptized by proxy?

[quote name='Bill Starbuck' post='1692569' date='Feb 19 2009, 13.17']Ditto this baptism. It's demeaning by its very nature. "You are not good enough as you are. You won't ever be good enough until you're Mormon. Your family failed you in life, and we will save you in death."[/quote]

Maybe this is more a philosophical question along the lines of "If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?"

If someone baptizes you and you are not made aware of it, can it be demeaning?

[Lord Mord]

Ken Stone,

[quote name='Ken Stone' post='1692555' date='Feb 19 2009, 11.11']But if the Baptists pray for Atheists in their private temple, to the degree that Atheists aren't even aware they are doing it, is that offensive? Really, that is what the Mormons are doing. They are praying, in private, for dead people. Fine a willing participant get's dunked. Whatever. Still a stretch to say it is offensive.[/quote]


Sure it's offensive. Maybe on a very low level, and in a way that most everyone mutually respects because it's just already accepted as what Christians do. It should bother atheists little or not at all, because of their tendency to cling to rationalism, which would reject the notion that the prayers have any meaning for them (the atheists).


I don't know, it's sort of like if you said my grandmother was a good lay. It was in the privacy of your own home, to someone who, to your knowledge, would never repeat this sentiment to me. It's still demeaning to my grandma. Should it bother me? Absolutely not -- I know the truth of the situation, and, if anything, I [i]could[/i] take it as a compliment.

But the human tendency to refuse to be put down by anyone, and the Anglo-American tendency towards sexual repression and woman-canonizing will probably lead me to take it as an insult and inspire me to knock your block off.


Is this loose-cannon-ness rational? Absolutely not. Is it biological? I doubt it. Is it nevertheless pervasive and does it more or less afflict everyone on a variety of disparate subjects? That is an unqualified yes, and as such, wondering "Why?" is pretty much useless, unless you want to address the problem in larger scope.

[Ken Stone]

[quote name='Bill Starbuck' post='1692614' date='Feb 19 2009, 13.40']Is this loose-cannon-ness rational? Absolutely not. Is it biological? I doubt it. Is it nevertheless pervasive and does it more or less afflict everyone on a variety of disparate subjects? That is an unqualified yes, and as such, wondering "Why?" is pretty much useless, unless you want to address the problem in larger scope.[/quote]

If your argument is that there exists people out there who are irrationally offended by the Mormons doing this baptism then I agree whole-heartedly. These people do seem to exist. I thought your argument was more along the lines of "It's rational to be offended by the wacky Mormon ritual" in which case I couldn't agree less.

[TerraPrime]

[quote name='Ken Stone' post='1692555' date='Feb 19 2009, 13.11']That's my point with the Mormons. Are the Mormons telling the families of the specific people the are baptizing that they baptized them? If so then I am with you. It's offensive.[/quote]

But surely, we know, since we're discussing it?

[Lord Mord]

Ken Stone,

[quote name='Ken Stone' post='1692630' date='Feb 19 2009, 12.03']If your argument is that there exists people out there who are irrationally offended by the Mormons doing this baptism then I agree whole-heartedly. These people do seem to exist. I thought your argument was more along the lines of "It's rational to be offended by the wacky Mormon ritual" in which case I couldn't agree less.[/quote]


Okay. Yeah, I don't mean to say that it's rational. OTOH, I don't think only their rational expectations should have sway in this matter. It may be irrational for them to insist that the baptisms be stopped, but I think it's a fine request and the Mormons would do better to accede than to decline.

[Ken Stone]

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1692648' date='Feb 19 2009, 14.14']But surely, we know, since we're discussing it?[/quote]

As an Atheist you get prayed for in millions of churches every Sunday. Assuming no one actually tells you that they've prayed for you, do you find that offensive?

[El-ahrairah]

Quite a few of you are arguing from the POVs of the deceased's family, and indeed exclusively from their POVs it can be insulting. But a little empathy is needed. From the LDS POV, something far worse than a fleeting temporal insult could happen to the one they seek to baptize. Surely the Mormon beliefs should be considered as well - and from a utilitarian standpoint the insult perceived by the families is outdone by the huge right perceived by those baptizing. Interestingly for this case, the world Mormon and Jewish populations are almost equal.

According to my very rough statistical calculation, about 22 members of this board are Mormon. Maybe some of them could do a better job at explaining themselves than a Gentile like me.

[WhiteQueen]

[quote name='Ken Stone' post='1585136' date='Nov 11 2008, 13.42']How [i]awesome[/i] would that be if there were Jewish people walking around in heaven for all these years, only to get sucked out and thrown into hell because a bunch of Mormon hicks baptized there dead body without their consent?[/quote]
Jews don't believe in hell, so it's not a plausible scenario. Not to mention it is not awesome.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1692703' date='Feb 19 2009, 15.43']Quite a few of you are arguing from the POVs of the deceased's family, and indeed exclusively from their POVs it can be insulting. But a little empathy is needed. From the LDS POV, something far worse than a fleeting temporal insult could happen to the one they seek to baptize. [b]Surely the Mormon beliefs should be considered as well[/b] - and from a utilitarian standpoint the insult perceived by the families is outdone by the huge right perceived by those baptizing. Interestingly for this case, the world Mormon and Jewish populations are almost equal.[/quote]Mormon belief should only go as far as the individual, the Mormon community, and willing converts or listeners. TerraPrime described it best as being along the lines of evangelical spiritual necrophilia.

[El-ahrairah]

[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon' post='1692784' date='Feb 19 2009, 16.21']Mormon belief should only go as far as the individual, the Mormon community, and willing converts or listeners.[/quote]
They are not converting unwillingly, in any sense. Either they remain rotting in the ground, or they remain in paradise or perdition, or else they have a free choice accept or deny the baptism.
[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon' post='1692784' date='Feb 19 2009, 16.21']TerraPrime described it best as being along the lines of evangelical spiritual necrophilia.[/quote]
Interesting phrase, but for those (including Jews), who believe in an afterlife, it hardly applies as the soul is not "dead". In a way, though, it is true. They are expressing their love for departed souls by seeking their conversion. If this is ESN, so be it!

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1692809' date='Feb 19 2009, 16.30'][b]They are not converting unwillingly, in any sense.[/b] Either they remain rotting in the ground, or they remain in paradise or perdition, or else they have a free choice accept or deny the baptism.[/quote]Then we definitely disagree about what is meant by unwilling.

[quote]Interesting phrase, but for those (including Jews), who believe in an afterlife, it hardly applies as the soul is not "dead". In a way, though, it is true. They are expressing their love for departed souls by seeking their conversion. If this is ESN, so be it![/quote]But if the souls are not dead, then it is coerced spiritual evangelism and conversion.

[Ormond]

[quote name='Eponine' post='1692388' date='Feb 19 2009, 11.35']If this was something they were doing privately, how did they previously have an agreement with the Jews that they would only posthumously baptize Holocaust victims who were ancestors of current Mormons? It seems that for this to be a negotiable issue, at some point they had to have said "hey we're baptizing your dead ancestors!"[/quote]

This isn't something the LDS church has tried to [i]hide[/i]. But simply acknowledging that you are performing a practice isn't the same thing as "saying hey", which implies that they were somehow especially proclaiming it to Jews.

[Ormond]

[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon' post='1692834' date='Feb 19 2009, 15.39']Then we definitely disagree about what is meant by unwilling.

But if the souls are not dead, then it is coerced spiritual evangelism and conversion.[/quote]

I don't get how this is "coerced" either.

The LDS doctrine is that valid baptisms and marriages can only be done on the physical Earth. They also believe that people who are posthumously baptized or married in their temples don't have to accept this in the afterlife. I don't understand how performing the posthumous baptisms is "coercive" if they don't claim that it actually makes one a Latter Day Saint without their consent.

I understand how this is upsetting to non-Mormons. I've posted before how I was angry when I found out that a set of my great-great-grandparents had been "married by proxy" in a Mormon temple. It felt like my ancestors had somehow been "stolen" from me. But I don't think those feelings are logical, and I don't think it's unethical or coercive for the LDS church to have performed the ceremony for my ancestors just because I found it creepy.

[TerraPrime]

[quote name='Ken Stone' post='1692699' date='Feb 19 2009, 14.42']As an Atheist you get prayed for in millions of churches every Sunday. Assuming no one actually tells you that they've prayed for you, do you find that offensive?[/quote]

Yes, I do, when I think about it, which I do from time to time. I find it offensive that people will presume to pray for my soul. Whether I believe in souls or afterlife or not is immaterial. They do. They are taking active steps to alter the path of my religious fate against my will. To them, it's real. They are literally trying to save my soul whether I want it or not. It is not kindness, despite what the practitioners claim. It's a form of unwanted parentalism and altogether condescending in its utter disregard of someone else's autonomy over their own spiritual fate. It's no better than European colonialists forcing native populations to learn European manners and dress codes out of a sense of obligation to improve the quality of these native people.

[Lord Mord]

TP,

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1693018' date='Feb 19 2009, 15.22']Yes, I do, when I think about it, which I do from time to time. I find it offensive that people will presume to pray for my soul. Whether I believe in souls or afterlife or not is immaterial. They do. They are taking active steps to alter the path of my religious fate against my will. To them, it's real. They are literally trying to save my soul whether I want it or not. It is not kindness, despite what the practitioners claim. It's a form of unwanted parentalism and altogether condescending in its utter disregard of someone else's autonomy over their own spiritual fate. It's no better than European colonialists forcing native populations to learn European manners and dress codes out of a sense of obligation to improve the quality of these native people.[/quote]


So your argument is that whatever the practical outcome, the intent itself is sufficiently disgusting as to be wrong.

I agree.

[El-ahrairah]

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1693018' date='Feb 19 2009, 18.22']They are literally trying to save my soul whether I want it or not.[/quote]
If you did believe in a soul, you would have to be pretty messed up not to want it saved. And if you do not, no amount of mumbo-jumbo will "save" a nonexistent fantasy.

Consider this scenario:

Three people are in a boat. Person A believes the boat is in water, and Person B believes the boat is in acid that kills all life that touches it. Person C falls off the side. If Person A wants to throw him a life vest, would person B be insulted because he does not believe Person C is still alive? And would Person C, if he lives, be insulted by the life vest they threw to him since he wanted to swim to shore?

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1693076' date='Feb 19 2009, 18.59']If you did believe in a soul, you would have to be pretty messed up not to want it saved. And if you do not, no amount of mumbo-jumbo will "save" a nonexistent fantasy.

Consider this scenario:

Three people are in a boat. Person A believes the boat is in water, and Person B believes the boat is in acid that kills all life that touches it. Person C falls off the side. If Person A wants to throw him a life vest, would person B be insulted because he does not believe Person C is still alive? And would Person C, if he lives, be insulted by the life vest they threw to him since he wanted to swim to shore?[/quote]Consider this scenario: I'm currently on a mission to save your dead great-grandmother's soul from Hell because she wasn't the right type of Christian.