Holocaust survivors to Mormons: Stop baptisms of dead Jews

[Crazydog7]

[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1691710' date='Feb 18 2009, 23.34']According to the Miriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition, we have: [b]Christian[/b] [i]"One who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ"[/i]. There is room for much debate on what those teachings are and mean, but calling Mormons non - Christian is simply poor semantics. According to [url="http://pewforum.org/surveys/religionviews07/"]this survey[/url], 52% of Americans believe Mormonism to be Christian, with 31% saying it's not and 17% not knowing.

I've never been there, but it seems to be far from theocracy. Granted, it's a solid Republican state, but only 58% to 72% (the latter being LDS figures) of the population are Mormon. The closest [i]country[/i] to a Mormon theocracy in the world is the Pacific nation of Tonga, with over 15% of its people being LDS.[/quote]

Well count me among the 31% it doesn't say and also believes in the teachings of Joesph Smith and Brigham Young.

Its like that Episcopalian priest who decided you could be both a Christan and Muslim you can't do that.

[url="http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1181062891496&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam%2FDIELayout"]http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satell...lam%2FDIELayout[/url]

I can't approach a serious discussion about Mormonism without thinking about the Mormon South Park episode.

[gryphon strike]

I tend to agree with you crazydog7 in re to mormons at least. I live near one of their major temples and often get visits from them. They all claim to be Gods messenger yet none of them have been willing to accept the biblical test that proves it to be true.
Thus I myself am forced to conclude that their faith in the church may be strong but not their faith in God. So I always end up saying goodbye messenger of the mormons. They hate that i mean the looks I have recieved and some of the rants also!

Also I have to say that the dictionery definition would make a lot of pagans I know very unhappy because it would make them Christians.

I am sorry but each time I hear some atheist say it is all irrelevant anyway because it is all a fantasy I find myself thinking and once again a dogmatic faith intrudes on a reasonable discussion.
I am sorry but just because you believe in atheism rather than a God or God/Goddesses it does not mean that your particular viewpoint has any more credence than anyone elses you choose to believe in what you choose to belive in just like the rest of us. Imo a true atheist would never mention the fantasy bit because they do not worship atheism and thus do not feel the need to spread it to as many converts as possible.

[El-ahrairah]

[quote name='Crazydog7' post='1691788' date='Feb 19 2009, 00.36']Well count me among the 31% it doesn't say and also believes in the teachings of Joesph Smith and Brigham Young.

Its like that Episcopalian priest who decided you could be both a Christan and Muslim you can't do that.

[url="http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1181062891496&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam%2FDIELayout"]http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satell...lam%2FDIELayout[/url][/quote]
That woman is sadly deranged. Islam is not based off the teachings of Jesus Christ any more than Christianity is based off the teachings of Moses. There is a world of difference between sharing some historical personages and having different founders. Christianity, whatever one may believe of Joseph Smith, was founded on earth by Jesus. Islam, whatever it may think of Jesus, was founded on earth by Mohammad.

[Lord Mord]

Eh. I think if Christ is a central figure in your faith, that's pretty much Christian. I don't know, it's like Republicanism, which seems to mostly be about tax cuts. You can think the cuts should be sweeping or limited, you can regard yourself as the heir of Lincoln, Roosevelt, or Reagan, or all three, and you may even throw Truman and the other Roosevelt in there, too, if you're of a mind; Adam Smith, Milton Friedman, hell, you can throw pretty much anyone in there you like, except Karl Marx. You can be Christian, atheist, Muslim, gay, straight, pro-life, pro-military, pro-choice, pro-peace, etc., etc. It's a big fucking tent.


Now, true, [i]some[/i] Republicans will get up on their dignity if you say one thing out of step with their particular ideology, and say, "You're not [i]really[/i] a Republican," but fuck them.


And fuck the people who'll tell you you aren't Christian. Fuck 'em right in the ear. You say you're Christian, that's pretty much all there is to it for me. Of course, start talking about one part of the Bible as Absolute Truth, and I may quiz you on why the other bits don't matter, but on the nominal notion of "being Christian," I'd say it's pretty much up to you.


And really -- why not?

[Galactus]

And you don't even have to vote for them to call yourself a republican!

[Lord Mord]

Galactus,

[quote name='Galactus' post='1692183' date='Feb 19 2009, 07.05']And you don't even have to vote for them to call yourself a republican![/quote]


No, you do not.

[Ken Stone]

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1691582' date='Feb 18 2009, 20.23']If someone walks up to you and tells you, without being asked, that your soul is not saved but they will go ahead and save you, whether you want them to or not, you wouldn't find that a little bit rude? Or inappropriate? I don't believe in souls and salvations, and I find incredibly rude.[/quote]

The whole point (to me at least) is this is something they do in private, that has no real effect on anything. It's sort of like being offended that gays have sex in the privacy of their own homes. I find it hard to understand how anyone can rationally be offended by that. Now if gays (or anyone) have sex in public then I understand the offense.

I may be missing out on some of the important details of what the Mormons are doing exactly. If they are sending little cards that say something like "Congrats, your late Aunt May is now a Mormon" after they do their ritual then yeah, I can see that person getting offended. However it still seems to me that you have to, on some level, believe that their ritual is having an actual effect to feel any sort of "offense". If you think it's all bullocks then I don't understand why you would feel anything other than mild annoyance, even if you were somehow made aware.

[Lord Mord]

Nobody likes knowing that someone else can belittle them with impunity. It's threatening. There is understandably some resentment of that threat in this case.


What's hard to understand about that?

[Ken Stone]

[quote name='Bill Starbuck' post='1692241' date='Feb 19 2009, 10.02']Nobody likes knowing that someone else can belittle them with impunity. It's threatening. There is understandably some resentment of that threat in this case.


What's hard to understand about that?[/quote]

Anyone can belittle you with impunity at anytime. Should we all walk around feeling offended at all times?

[Lord Mord]

Ken Stone,

[quote name='Ken Stone' post='1692253' date='Feb 19 2009, 08.09']Anyone can belittle you with impunity at anytime. Should we all walk around feeling offended at all times?[/quote]


Nope. Of course, this is somewhat different in terms of the [i]institutionalization[/i] of that belittling, but no, it's not really different.

[Ormond]

[quote name='Bill Starbuck' post='1692182' date='Feb 19 2009, 09.03']Eh. I think if Christ is a central figure in your faith, that's pretty much Christian. I don't know, it's like Republicanism, which seems to mostly be about tax cuts. You can think the cuts should be sweeping or limited, you can regard yourself as the heir of Lincoln, Roosevelt, or Reagan, or all three, and you may even throw Truman and the other Roosevelt in there, too, if you're of a mind; Adam Smith, Milton Friedman, hell, you can throw pretty much anyone in there you like, except Karl Marx. You can be Christian, atheist, Muslim, gay, straight, pro-life, pro-military, pro-choice, pro-peace, etc., etc. It's a big fucking tent.


Now, true, [i]some[/i] Republicans will get up on their dignity if you say one thing out of step with their particular ideology, and say, "You're not [i]really[/i] a Republican," but fuck them.[/quote]

Personally I think that Mormons should be accorded the label "Christian" (though I strongly object when people try to call them "Protestants".)

However, using the "Republican" analogy as an argument only works in an American context. As several threads on elections on this board have shown in the past, in many other countries in the world one is only considered a member of a particular political party if one is a card carrying dues paying member. Some non-Americans on this board were utterly dumbfounded to learn that in the USA political parties cannot "expel" someone from membership and prevent them from running on their ticket in a primary election.

[Brude]

Mormons are the Christians as the early Christians were to Jews. The early Christians considered themselves Jews who had heard the new teachings of God and his messiah but for Jews this was a perversion of everything they were about. The same seems fairly true for the Mormon/Christian relationship to one another. The new teachings are, for Christians, weird and uncomfortable stuff but for Mormons it's a natural progression and addition to the earlier revelations of Jesus.

[Ken Stone]

[quote name='Bill Starbuck' post='1692266' date='Feb 19 2009, 10.17']Ken Stone,




Nope. Of course, this is somewhat different in terms of the [i]institutionalization[/i] of that belittling, but no, it's not really different.[/quote]

So in your opinion, people doing a private ritual, in the privacy of their own temple, a private ritual that they believe is compassionate and the work of God is actually, belittling? How so?

ETA: If it was in your face I can understand the belittling angle. If they come to the funeral of the person, or do it over the grave, or come to your door to tell you they have done it ... something. I just don't see how if they are doing it behind closed doors it can be construed as belittling.

[Lord Mord]

Ormond,

[quote name='Ormond' post='1692283' date='Feb 19 2009, 08.28']Personally I think that Mormons should be accorded the label "Christian" (though I strongly object when people try to call them "Protestants".)

However, using the "Republican" analogy as an argument only works in an American context. As several threads on elections on this board have shown in the past, in many other countries in the world one is only considered a member of a particular political party if one is a card carrying dues paying member. Some non-Americans on this board were utterly dumbfounded to learn that in the USA political parties cannot "expel" someone from membership and prevent them from running on their ticket in a primary election.[/quote]


My argument is not affected by the non-universality of political parties. Even if it only worked in relation to the American Republican Party, the analogy itself still holds.

[Lord Mord]

Ken Stone,

[quote name='Ken Stone' post='1692304' date='Feb 19 2009, 08.38']So in your opinion, people doing a private ritual, in the privacy of their own temple, a private ritual that they believe is compassionate and the work of God is actually, belittling? How so?

ETA: If it was in your face I can understand the belittling angle. If they come to the funeral of the person, or do it over the grave, or come to your door to tell you they have done it ... something. I just don't see how if they are doing it behind closed doors it can be construed as belittling.[/quote]


"We need to save these people, but all this Jew-ness is dragging their souls down! It's our job to rescue them! Let's scourge the Jew right out of them. Oop! Still a spot of Jew floating around somewhere in that one. Get them good and clean, now! Holy Father wants 'em good and clean! Scrub until there's no more Jewishness left and they're all sparkling Christian clean!"


That's not belittling?


Of course, that's not the actual dialogue at such an event, but it is, I believe, the perception of how it goes or roughly how it might as well go, as far as the Jews are concerned. And honestly, I have a hard time blaming them.

[Galactus]

[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1691854' date='Feb 19 2009, 07.40']That woman is sadly deranged. Islam is not based off the teachings of Jesus Christ any more than Christianity is based off the teachings of Moses. There is a world of difference between sharing some historical personages and having different founders. Christianity, whatever one may believe of Joseph Smith, was founded on earth by Jesus. Islam, whatever it may think of Jesus, was founded on earth by Mohammad.[/quote]

Islam is based on the teachings of Jesus, the real ones, not the distorted ones the christians follow.

[Eponine]

[quote name='Ken Stone' post='1692212' date='Feb 19 2009, 10.34']The whole point (to me at least) is this is something they do in private, that has no real effect on anything. It's sort of like being offended that gays have sex in the privacy of their own homes. I find it hard to understand how anyone can rationally be offended by that. Now if gays (or anyone) have sex in public then I understand the offense.

I may be missing out on some of the important details of what the Mormons are doing exactly. If they are sending little cards that say something like "Congrats, your late Aunt May is now a Mormon" after they do their ritual then yeah, I can see that person getting offended. However it still seems to me that you have to, on some level, believe that their ritual is having an actual effect to feel any sort of "offense". If you think it's all bullocks then I don't understand why you would feel anything other than mild annoyance, even if you were somehow made aware.[/quote]

If this was something they were doing privately, how did they previously have an agreement with the Jews that they would only posthumously baptize Holocaust victims who were ancestors of current Mormons? It seems that for this to be a negotiable issue, at some point they had to have said "hey we're baptizing your dead ancestors!"

[Lord Mord]

Galactus,

[quote name='Galactus' post='1692379' date='Feb 19 2009, 09.27']Islam is based on the teachings of Jesus, the real ones, not the distorted ones the christians follow.[/quote]


Granted that the followers of Islam may very well believe they are following the true teachings of Jesus and that I cannot prove they are wrong; nevertheless are you being deliberately obtuse here in order to make some kind of point, or is this what you really believe?

[El-ahrairah]

[quote name='Galactus' post='1692379' date='Feb 19 2009, 12.27']Islam is based on the teachings of Jesus, the real ones, not the distorted ones the christians follow.[/quote]
Yes, it does claim the truth of Christ's teachings, but they are [b]not[/b] what it is based off. Mormonism and orthodox Christianity undeniably share the same basic teachings, as revealed in the Bible. But Islam takes only the name of Jesus, and some folktales and parables. Varying interpretations can only go so far. If someone found "secret writings" from Karl Marx exalting religion and imperialism, and started a party based off them, would you consider him a Marxist?

[TerraPrime]

[quote name='Ken Stone' post='1692212' date='Feb 19 2009, 09.34']The whole point (to me at least) is this is something they do in private, that has no real effect on anything.[/quote]

Would you think that someone is getting upset over nothing if it were to come to light that every time I masturbate I think of his/her wife taking my cock up her ass? Every time I get a boner, I am secretly living out a rape fantasy against that person's wife. Would that be cause to be upset? I mean, it's all in the privacy of my own bathroom, and it has no effect on anything. Surely then, it should cause nobody any grief to learn of this?



Religion is a choice. A choice that, at least in the U.S., we hold it to be pretty fucking important. Tempering with someone's religion after their death, when they have no way to making protest, is to me, akin to spiritual necrophilia. You're forcing your religion onto someone who cannot protest. The argument that a disbelief in Mormon doctrines renders the forced conversion meaningless is specious, imo, because we wouldn't tolerate a group of Baptists waiting outside an atheist meeting to sprinkle water on them and proclaiming that the atheists have all now been baptized. We'd see that it is rude, offensive, and a violation of someone's choice of religion. The fact that the little bit of water makes no difference to the atheists' view on their afterlife is secondary to the disrespect and violation incurred by the act of sprinkling the water. The barbarism of the action is not mitigated by the absence of objective harm actually committed.