Mafia 59.5 - Murder In Trinity College

[Piper of Chaos]

[quote name='mentat' post='1607313' date='Dec 3 2008, 13.27']You've been building up momentum against me for quite a while, don't say it as if it's some kind of sudden realization, because it's contrived. As to how your reveal fits into my theory:[/quote]
This had been an explanation to thers why I defended you yesterday and why I suspect you today.

[quote name='mentat' post='1607313' date='Dec 3 2008, 13.27']Plus, the nervous man isn't even a CI role, so I don't see how it interferes. By revealing as an evil you'd guarantee yourself survivability until at least Friday because no one would bother to try and lynch you. You can WIFOM it all you want, but I don't see how revealing is indicative of innocence at all.[/quote]

If I was indeed evil I would be able to avoid a lynch until Friday anyway. :smoking:


[quote name='mentat' post='1607313' date='Dec 3 2008, 13.27']Nonsense. Role-hunting is a crap shot. And it's my best guess for the kill, not some sort of certainty.[/quote]

So first you said you think Malcolm was killed because the killers were role huntung, and you thought that it wasn't because he suspected one of the killers, but because of role hunting. Now you say that the role hunting idea is crap.

[quote name='mentat' post='1607313' date='Dec 3 2008, 13.27']It would be a very stupid reason to choose a NK, and I'm not stupid.[/quote]

Since Malcolm's dead fingers are pointing at WJ, the kill would be rather clever. It's like you said, he didn't really suspect you, but he had an eye on you and could have been a possible threat in the future.



Edit: clarification

[J_Slr]

Sorry guys, but due to RL issues, I am going to be unable to continue playing.

I have asked H T for a modkill.

My sincerest apologies about this.

Good luck guys.

[Masonity]

[quote name='J_Slr' post='1607344' date='Dec 3 2008, 13.10']Sorry guys, but due to RL issues, I am going to be unable to continue playing.

I have asked H T for a modkill.

My sincerest apologies about this.

Good luck guys.[/quote]


Sorry to hear that. Best of luck with the RL issues, and feel free to play with us again. :cheers:

[The Man Who]

It's a shame to lose a player to a modkill.

Hope you get your stuff sorted out, including reading aFfC.

[Mentat]

[quote name='Piper of Chaos' post='1607328' date='Dec 3 2008, 13.45']This had been an explanation to thers why I defended you yesterday and why I suspect you today.[/quote]

What I'm saying is the transition is contrived. I already noticed it and pointed it out before my previous post. You didn't just change your mind about me because of something I did or said, you were building momentum to attack me as part of an agenda.

[quote]So first you said you think Malcolm was killed because the killers were role huntung, and you thought that it wasn't because he suspected one of the killers, but because of role hunting. Now you say that the role hunting idea is crap.[/quote]

A crap shot as in random (because they don't know who has what role), not as in crap (shit).

[quote]Since Malcolm's dead fingers are pointing at WJ, the kill would be rather clever. It's like you said, he didn't really suspect you, but he had an eye on you and could have been a possible threat in the future.[/quote]

Would be, could have been... It's all baseless suppositions that could apply to any player you like. Of course it could have been a frame job, or it could have been to deflect suspicion, or it could have been me (as far as the rest of you are concerned). But all three of them are statements that aren't backed up by anything save your evil fancy. Your words are clear lies and slander, not even arguable opinions.

ETA: Good luck with RL and see you again in some future game J_Slr.

[House Targaryen]

[b]J_Slr has been modkilled. He was innocent[/b]

It is day 2.

12 players remain: House Mullendore, Harlot, Lany Cassandra, Masonity, Mentat, Piper of Chaos, Shadowbaby, Slick Mongoose, The Man Who, Tsoert, Weekapaug, WhiskeyJack.

7 votes are needed for a conviction or 6 to go to night.

3 votes for Mentat (Lany Cassandra, WhiskeyJack, Slick Mongoose)
2 votes for Harlot (The Man Who, Tsoert)
2 votes for Lany Cassandra (Harlot, Mentat)
1 vote for Piper of Chaos (Masonity)
1 vote for The Man Who ( House Mullendore)
1 vote for Tsoert (Weekapaug)
1 vote for WhiskeyJack (Shadowbaby)

1 players have not voted: Piper of Chaos.

[Harlot]

[quote name='Weekapaug' post='1607154' date='Dec 3 2008, 01.59']I've been reading through that sequence of events and it just makes no sense to me. At one point I thought I had an explanation, however it wasn't the case either. Harlot's initial reaction is that the vote has no reasoning (there is a word for such votes that we usually use...) and then he does go back on that by claiming he thought it was serious.[/quote]

First: I only have a few minutes to respond before I have to head off. I have only read the exchange between WJ, Week and Shabba immediately following my last post.

In response to both Week and WJ re: Tsoert - reading over it, I agree that it makes no sense. I think what's important is that I'm clearly confused about who Tsoert was talking to. All I can say is that on Monday I was home sick with a sinus infection and bronchitis and goofed up on Sudafed between visits to the doctor and watching [i]In Bruges [/i]. I know my thinking at the time was that Tsoert's reaction was a bit extreme to a bit of mild inquiry. As I said, I was mostly trying to engage a player that I didn't know and who wasn't posting much. His reaction of refusing to answer and calling me a meanie was just odd. And later I felt justified in pushing him because even tho he claimed it was a joke vote at first it stayed there until the lynch.

As for my level of contribution: I said already yesterday that I was busy having missed a day of work. I'd like to be more engaged but my work load just insn't going to allow it. I thought I was going to have a fairly light work week when I agreed to play but in fact I was told yesterday that I'm being sent to 2-day conference tomorrow in place of a co-worker. So instead of having 2 free days to catch up I'm trying to cram in several days work before I leave.

Week - as for my other suspects. I haven't really looked at them. I said I would look at Lany yesterday so I followed thru with that first and haven't had time to really look at anyone else yet. I haven't been pursuaded regarding mentat. I do agree with you that WJ is playing a bit mild when I read his vote analysis on those on and off the mob that I agreed that wasn't what I expected from him. But seeing as how it was beneficial to me and WJ and I seem to be agreeing, I was rolling with it for the time being. I guess I am being tunnel-visioned. I think the lack of contribution from Tsoert and J_Slr and the fact they are newbs is pushing suspicion onto players that are more active because we have more to look at.

My work schedule today takes me out of the office for then next 2-3 hours. I'll try to catch up with the thread at lunch and hopefully will have some time to post this afternoon.

[Whiskeyjack]

[quote name='Tsoert' post='1607270' date='Dec 3 2008, 05.34']Sorry I cant participate as much as I would like to, I'm trying my best :dunno:[/quote]
Thats okay. I appreciate the fact that you (and the others) didn't ignore my request, and posted your suspects and thoughts. Thank you. Please just try to keep it up periodically. You don't need to post a ton to participate - you just need to let us know who you suspect and why every once in a while.


[quote name='mentat' post='1607272' date='Dec 3 2008, 05.35']Why would they kill Week or me over Malc if role hunting? Have either of us revealed a role and I missed it? Why should I (or anyone innocent, for that matter) be able to explain the FMs intention to such detail?[/quote]
I think mentat is right here. I don't necessarily agree that we can just chalk it up to role-hunting, but if thats the choice he has made, then its essentially equal to just say the kill was random. At least, it is from our POV. We can't know what the FM supposedly saw to make them target Malc, or why they'd choose him over other people, if that was their reason for the kill (as he suggests).

[quote name='mentat']It was not an obvious symp clue or a non-obvious symp clue. It was not a symp clue at all. It was bog-standard day one Lany banter. Even in a game with a symp inthe role list from day one there's no way anyone would have accused Malc of symping Lany based on that post. Symp greeting his master my arse.[/quote]
I agree with him here too.

[quote name='mentat']You're still trying to construe the case that Malc was suspicious of me when it's plainly just another lie. He just said he wanted to hear more from me.[/quote]
And here.

[quote name='Piper of Chaos' post='1607282' date='Dec 3 2008, 05.53']You know, yesterday I felt pretty confident about you. But know I have realized that you have a very low post count and that your contributions so far have been (negative) reactions to other players thoughts.[/quote]
I don't know, I'm actually feeling a bit better about him, after his last few posts. The low post count doesn't bother me, because he never posts a lot. And I agree with him on many of the points he's making in response to you right now.

[quote name='mentat' post='1607313' date='Dec 3 2008, 06.27']Plus, the nervous man isn't even a CI role, so I don't see how it interferes. By revealing as an evil you'd guarantee yourself survivability until at least Friday because no one would bother to try and lynch you. You can WIFOM it all you want, but I don't see how revealing is indicative of innocence at all.[/quote]
That's the one place where I disagree. Well, disagree to some extent. You're right that the role itself doesn't make Piper CI. But, in my opinion, the choice to reveal that particular role doesn't make a whole lot of sense for an evil player (*except for one caveat that I'll explain below). Because if he doesn't die on Friday, there'd be a huge negative reaction, and a lot of people would want to lynch him.

*Now, I'll admit.....it has crossed my mind that it's Piper we're talking about, and knowing him, its quite possible he fake revealed that role as an innocent. I know Malcolm posted that as soon as the reveal happened - that he didn't believe it, and that he didn't feel it was indicative of Piper's alignment at all. I tend to agree with him.

And Piper is a smart guy. So I guess its possible that, if Piper is lying (and evil), he anticipated that exact reaction. He could be counting on that type of 'oh, that Piper, he's so unpredictable!' reaction from everyone (or from a few influential people) to save him.

[quote name='The Man Who' post='1607301' date='Dec 3 2008, 06.14']I'd like a little insight from WJ, if he should so please, as to why he has this focus at the moment.[/quote]

I think you answered this yourself, in one of your posts. The 3 of you have been wishy-washy and non-committal. In this game, its important to make connections between people. The more information, the better. We can't solve anything if we have 3 relatively blank spots staring at us. So I want you to give us that information.

Additionally, I want you guys to actually be involved in the game. Because I'm hoping that you'll enjoy it, and want to continue to play in the future. :)

[quote name='J_Slr' post='1607344' date='Dec 3 2008, 07.10']Sorry guys, but due to RL issues, I am going to be unable to continue playing.

I have asked H T for a modkill.

My sincerest apologies about this.

Good luck guys.[/quote]

That sucks. Sorry to hear it, and I hope everything is okay for you.

[The Man Who]

[quote name='Whiskeyjack' post='1607379' date='Dec 3 2008, 15.52']I think you answered this yourself, in one of your posts. The 3 of you have been wishy-washy and non-committal. In this game, its important to make connections between people. The more information, the better. We can't solve anything if we have 3 relatively blank spots staring at us. So I want you to give us that information.

Additionally, I want you guys to actually be involved in the game. Because I'm hoping that you'll enjoy it, and want to continue to play in the future. :)[/quote]

I thought that was the case, and I just wanted to hear it from you. I'm not sure we're the only ones who have been so. But I think you have a better base-read off other players due to prior knowledge.

I was really hoping you'd say it was because my veneer of mystery and danger had you completely baffled and lost, but this was never going to happen.

You needn't worry about me enjoying it - I'm starting to develop an unhealthy addiction. :wideeyed:

I also think that I'll have a better sense of where things are, but some of these logical steps people make seem slightly incomprehensible to me, and sometimes I find myself thinking something suspicious about someone, and then indulging in mass WiFoMic circles.

Like for example, at one point I was thinking of your highlighting of the fact that you though there was a FM on the lynch train, and I thought of about 10 different scenarios of what was going on, most with completely divergent outcomes, and almost all based on so little solid fact that my head starts spinning.

I must learn to filter it out.

[Mentat]

[quote name='Whiskeyjack' post='1607379' date='Dec 3 2008, 14.52']That's the one place where I disagree. Well, disagree to some extent. You're right that the role itself doesn't make Piper CI. But, in my opinion, the choice to reveal that particular role doesn't make a whole lot of sense for an evil player (*except for one caveat that I'll explain below). Because if he doesn't die on Friday, there'd be a huge negative reaction, and a lot of people would want to lynch him.[/quote]

But imagine an evil player answers the riddle and gets given the nervous man role (which is possible because nervous man is not faction limited). You might say, why reveal? But then, why not?

I'd even say an innocent nervous man could make the most of his role trying to attract a NK, because it means it's wasted. Now (if Piper's innocent and honest in his reveal) it means the FM know not to waste a kill on him because he'll die on his won on Friday.

Plus I still think he could easily be a double-roled nervous man/symp.

[Piper of Chaos]

Mlacolm had three players on his radar: WJ, Harlot and mentat. This is not a lie. Mentat had a reason to kill him. He got

a) rid of a strong player

b) that had him on the radar

c) and we wouldn't even bother looking for a reason

d) and even if we did, we'd look at WJ and Harlot


[b]Mentat[/b]

[Shadowbaby]

[quote name='Piper of Chaos' post='1607496' date='Dec 3 2008, 10.44']d) and even if we did, we'd look at WJ and Harlot[/quote]
Piper, what the hell?

As I recall, mentat was next up for a lynch yesterday, not WJ or Harlot.

[Piper of Chaos]

[quote name='Shadowbaby' post='1607501' date='Dec 3 2008, 16.47']Piper, what the hell?

As I recall, mentat was next up for a lynch yesterday, not WJ or Harlot.[/quote]
I am talking about the Malcolm kill, WJ sheep, and mentat saying that it would have been a rather stupid thing to do for him.


ETA: What I mean is that we would have looked at Harlot and WJ as the possible Malcom killers

[Masonity]

[quote name='Shadowbaby' post='1607501' date='Dec 3 2008, 15.47']Piper, what the hell?

As I recall, mentat was next up for a lynch yesterday, not WJ or Harlot.[/quote]


I think he means today. Malcolm's death looks worse for WJ and Harlot than it does for Mentat. Therefore, even if we look to lynch someone who chose to kill Malcolm, it'd be WJ and Harlot on the line not him?

I don't think I fully agree with that, partly because we're hardly going to lynch soley based on that, and partly because Malcolm didn't have strong enough finger-pointing on anyone to take his shade's word for it, but I think that's what he meant.

[Whiskeyjack]

[quote name='Harlot' post='1607376' date='Dec 3 2008, 07.49']In response to both Week and WJ re: Tsoert - reading over it, I agree that it makes no sense. I think what's important is that I'm clearly confused about who Tsoert was talking to. All I can say is that on Monday I was home sick with a sinus infection and bronchitis and goofed up on Sudafed between visits to the doctor and watching [i]In Bruges [/i]. I know my thinking at the time was that Tsoert's reaction was a bit extreme to a bit of mild inquiry. As I said, I was mostly trying to engage a player that I didn't know and who wasn't posting much. His reaction of refusing to answer and calling me a meanie was just odd. And later I felt justified in pushing him because even tho he claimed it was a joke vote at first it stayed there until the lynch.[/quote]

Wait, so now you're backing off and saying that you were wrong? Why the change of heart? Looking back through your posts, you've consistently held onto your claim that it was a serious vote. :unsure:

[quote name='Harlot to Week']I do agree with you that WJ is playing a bit mild when I read his vote analysis on those on and off the mob that I agreed that wasn't what I expected from him. But seeing as how it was beneficial to me and WJ and I seem to be agreeing, I was rolling with it for the time being.[/quote]

You didn't expect me to engage in voting analysis? Really? Why not? I'm confused, because I use voting analysis as a tool all the time.

I also don't understand why you'd let something slide if you think its suspicious, just because it was beneficial to you. Thats the type of cost-benefit analysis that an evil player does, not an innocent one. [b]Harlot[/b]

[House Targaryen]

It is day 2.

12 players remain: House Mullendore, Harlot, Lany Cassandra, Masonity, Mentat, Piper of Chaos, Shadowbaby, Slick Mongoose, The Man Who, Tsoert, Weekapaug, WhiskeyJack.

7 votes are needed for a conviction or 6 to go to night.

3 votes for Harlot (The Man Who, Tsoert, WhiskeyJack)
3 votes for Mentat (Lany Cassandra, Slick Mongoose, Piper of Chaos)
2 votes for Lany Cassandra (Harlot, Mentat)
1 vote for Piper of Chaos (Masonity)
1 vote for The Man Who ( House Mullendore)
1 vote for Tsoert (Weekapaug)
1 vote for WhiskeyJack (Shadowbaby)

Everyone has voted!

[Shadowbaby]

[quote name='Piper of Chaos' post='1607508' date='Dec 3 2008, 10.54']ETA: What I mean is that we would have looked at Harlot and WJ as the possible Malcom killers[/quote]
Okay. I disagree. I also do not follow your line of reasoning, but I assume it must make sense because apparently Masonity gets it.

[Masonity]

[quote name='Shadowbaby' post='1607525' date='Dec 3 2008, 16.03']Okay. I disagree. I also do not follow your line of reasoning, but I assume it must make sense because apparently Masonity gets it.[/quote]


I also disagree. I do get it though. :-p

[Harlot]

[quote name='Whiskeyjack' post='1607513' date='Dec 3 2008, 10.56']Wait, so now you're backing off and saying that you were wrong? Why the change of heart? Looking back through your posts, you've consistently held onto your claim that it was a serious vote. :unsure:[/quote]

It wasn't until Week pointed out that Tsoert wasn't accusing me of bitching that I saw that my confusion. Unlike some I can admit I am occasionally wrong when I review it. I can honestly say that I think I misread that whole interaction with Tsoert.

[quote]You didn't expect me to engage in voting analysis? Really? Why not? I'm confused, because I use voting analysis as a tool all the time.[/quote]

You're misunderstanding my post. It was not that you did vote analysis, it was the method as pointed out by Week of excluding yourself, Masonity and myself. Re-read my post. I wasn't suprised that you did it but how.

[quote]I also don't understand why you'd let something slide if you think its suspicious, just because it was beneficial to you. Thats the type of cost-benefit analysis that an evil player does, not an innocent one. [b]Harlot[/b][/quote]

That's fair, but that was the first post I had made since you and Week had already hashed it out. I didn't "let it slide" I noted it and said why it was not of particular concern to me. I tend to think it's a good thing that I find myself agreeing with you but still maintaining some skepticism.

[Whiskeyjack]

[quote name='mentat' post='1607417' date='Dec 3 2008, 08.25']But imagine an evil player answers the riddle and gets given the nervous man role (which is possible because nervous man is not faction limited). You might say, why reveal? But then, why not?

I'd even say an innocent nervous man could make the most of his role trying to attract a NK, because it means it's wasted. Now (if Piper's innocent and honest in his reveal) it means the FM know not to waste a kill on him because he'll die on his won on Friday.

Plus I still think he could easily be a double-roled nervous man/symp.[/quote]

You make some compelling points. I'm still not willing to do anything about Piper until Friday, but I definitely see where you're coming from. Especially the part about drawing the night kill. That would have been his optimal move.

So you're voting for Lany because you think Piper is protecting her?