The Richard Morgan Thread II

[GoN]

Its too bad you don't know anyone you could stay with in Scotland, Steg :P

[Richard]

[quote]The Cold Commands sounds better. Don't know if it's the alliteration, the fact that it seems less generic, or both.[/quote]
You're absolutely right, and yes, it is the alliteration. I was loath to let it go myself

Unfortunately, there's nothing remotely cold anywhere in the narrative I'm building, and I do like my titles to have thematic relevance, even if it's sometimes a little obscure. Sigh.

[Richard]

Fans of the explicit sex - thank you, thank you!

Stego - I'm afraid Balefont is right; I'm guesting at SwanCon in Australia this spring and taking a two month extended book tour (well, holiday) while I'm out there. Can't really justify any other long haul con destinations this year.

But you're welcome to start a Black Man thread, and I'll drop in as and when I get a minute.

[GoN]

[quote]Fans of the explicit sex - thank you, thank you![/quote]

No, sir, [i]thank you[/i]

[Richard]

Arthmail - couple of things:

[quote]Kovacs might be tired of this terminal fighting, and he's changing, thats great, but he never gives his former squaddies a chance to change as well.[/quote]
Well, that's war, isn't it? Collateral damage, murdered POWs etc etc.... If you've served in an infantry capacity you'll know how impossibly difficult it is to only kill the people you absolutely need to. Faced with a group of enemy soldiers, you don't often get the chance to decide which ones might give up if you give them the chance. And even if you do......Raymond Chandler gives a chilling account of German machine gunners he saw bayoneted to death in the first world war after they'd surrendered. And apparently it was quite common practice on both sides in WW2 to murder captured flame thrower operators by setting them on fire. And all that's without getting into the issue of accidentally murdered civilians who crop up in every conflict there's ever been......

Yes, undoubtedly, some of the more sensitive members of the Wedge are unhappy about the torture execution of Sutjiadi, and I was very careful to paint them as such, because that's part of the tragedy. But tellingly none of them buck the trend or disobey Carrera by attempting to prevent the execution going ahead. They are loyal first and foremost to their unit - at whatever cost. And the cost here is death at the hands of a psychotically fed up Kovacs.

[quote]But he doesn't just kill them, he slaughters them in the most abhorent way. In a world were one could concievably live forever, he kills them permanently.[/quote]
Yes - it's what he's been trained to do as an Envoy - obliterate with extreme prejudice. Come to that, it's what the Wedge would also do to anyone they killed.

[quote]But this total disregard of his former unit, men who he had fought with, over what is essentially a few people he got to know over a couple of months, strikes me as somehow false. I just can't see it happening.[/quote]
Kovacs is a master deceiver (in a fantasy novel he'd be a demon, not a man). As an Envoy he's been used to long deep cover operations, where you live cheek by jowl for months and years with the people you're aiming to destroy; The Wedge are no more his "comrades" than the revolutionary Kempists he also fought for for a while. And it's not that he privileges Sutjiadi and Co over the rest, it's that this particular barbarity is what finally pushes him over the edge.

[Stego]

[quote name='Richard' post='1682760' date='Feb 11 2009, 08.23']Can't really justify any other long haul con destinations this year.[/quote]


There's always another year. :D

[Arthmail]

I appreciate the responses.

I still have a tough time swallowing it. He is not just punishing a random group of enemy combatants, or setting them on fire. He's flash frying men he served with. Considering his Envoy training should have helped him to keep that shit under control, to some degree, i have a hard time believing that he would do that. As with any good agent involved in the sort of stuff he has been involved in, i would agree, he could probably fry any number of given people if that was his job. The Wedge, however, were not part of his job description. While what they were doing to Sutjiadi was repugnant, his actions made theirs look tame in comparison.

And personally, if i was part of that group that had been with him, and saw what he was willing to do to former comrades, i would have been hoofing it the other way.

By the way, its never explictely stated what happened to Hand. I can guess, of course, but i enjoyed his character more than most of the former soldiers he picked up as part of his crew. Especially the woman.

Also...i know some others have disargeed already, but i see no reason for the continous heavy sex in your books. Perhaps i am missing something, but i fail to see how they add to the narrative.

[GoN]

To me at least, saying you don't see how sex helps the narrative is like saying you wish there was less swearing, or less violence. You could have the same book without using the word fuck, but it would definitely be missing something. People have sex. I find some of the sex interesting to the characters involved. If its not your thing, cool, skim over and move on to the next thing that does. Me, I don't like battle scenes in space opera and most fantasy, and I totally skin over the parries and thrusts... wait, I've confused myself.

[red snow]

Altered Carbon is still my favourite Kovacs novel and I think Woken Furies is the weakest. The strange thing about "Furies" is that I think it has a longer lasting emotional effect. There's something very raw about the feelings going through Kovacs head and when I discovered why he was behaving like he did I could empathise. The final confrontation with his younger self is also heartwrenching and says a lot about trying to deal with loss. So in a way "Furies" is my favourite with regards to character but I thought the plots of the previous two were a lot more exciting. I need to read the series again at some point - maybe when part IV is announced (hint hint).

"Market Forces" seems to be his most overlooked work. It was the last one I got round to reading (even after "steel remains") and I feel it's his second best piece of work outside of "altered Carbon". I don't know which book was written first but there's something different about "Market Forces" which makes it feel like a younger work (possibly the toned down sex and the protagonist not being as super hard-ass?). I'm amazed that "Market Forces" has only got as far as being optioned for a film! Speaking of which, if HBO ever decide to do sci-fi, the Kovacs series would be an obvious choice for TV adaptation.

[Rubies & Jade]

[quote name='red snow' post='1682955' date='Feb 11 2009, 12.21']"Market Forces" seems to be his most overlooked work. It was the last one I got round to reading (even after "steel remains") and I feel it's his second best piece of work outside of "altered Carbon". I don't know which book was written first but there's something different about "Market Forces" which makes it feel like a younger work (possibly the toned down sex and the protagonist not being as super hard-ass?). I'm amazed that "Market Forces" has only got as far as being optioned for a film! Speaking of which, if HBO ever decide to do sci-fi, the Kovacs series would be an obvious choice for TV adaptation.[/quote]

Hey Red Snow,
I could be wrong (someone will correct me if I am, surely), but I think Market Forces was written originally as a movie script. I liked it just fine, but it felt like it was lacking some depth. It felt like I was reading a movie.

I agree with Ghost. I've also said this before. I like the sex scenes, they add to the fullness of the characters. Also, there is only a couple in each book--they didn't even hit my radar as "a lot" or "heavy" or whatever until I saw a few people complain about them. weird, but ymmv. just skip 'um if you aren't into sex.

[Yohn]

[quote name='BJT' post='1682973' date='Feb 11 2009, 16.30']Hey Red Snow,
I could be wrong (someone will correct me if I am, surely), but I think Market Forces was written originally as a movie script. I liked it just fine, but it felt like it was lacking some depth. It felt like I was reading a movie.

I agree with Ghost. I've also said this before. I like the sex scenes, they add to the fullness of the characters. Also, there is only a couple in each book--they didn't even hit my radar as "a lot" or "heavy" or whatever until I saw a few people complain about them. weird, but ymmv. just skip 'um if you aren't into sex.[/quote]

OT, but....

What's really strange is that some of the complainants don't have a problem with violence, only sex. Explain that one!

[Rubies & Jade]

[quote name='BronzeYohn' post='1682997' date='Feb 11 2009, 12.44']OT, but....

What's really strange is that some of the complainants don't have a problem with violence, only sex. Explain that one![/quote]

I've noticed that, too--I find it completely strange. I've also seen a couple of times complaints to the effect of liking porn a lot, but the sex in these books is too much. huh?
its all very odd I'll never forget the time on this forum I saw a poster complain there was too much sex in the GRRM books, but qualified it by saying that he had no problem with all the rapes. :o I have to assume that most of these comments are trolls--how else to explain them?

[red snow]

[quote name='BJT' post='1682973' date='Feb 11 2009, 16.30']Hey Red Snow,
I could be wrong (someone will correct me if I am, surely), but I think Market Forces was written originally as a movie script. I liked it just fine, but it felt like it was lacking some depth. It felt like I was reading a movie.

I agree with Ghost. I've also said this before. I like the sex scenes, they add to the fullness of the characters. Also, there is only a couple in each book--they didn't even hit my radar as "a lot" or "heavy" or whatever until I saw a few people complain about them. weird, but ymmv. just skip 'um if you aren't into sex.[/quote]

I think you could be right, either "Market Forces", "altered Carbon" or both were at some stage screenplays. I think when I was in a queue for a signing by him I overheard him saying how he thought it was odd how "market forces" hasn't been optioned and "Altered Carbon" has despite "MF" being easier to adapt (Just realised I got the optioning of "MF" and "AC" confused in my inital post).
I also thought the sex scenes were fine, particularly with "Altered Carbon" as it's a standard in noir. The sex scene where they were both on drugs that allowed them to sense what the other was feeling was pretty cool too. In general I think if something is hyperviolent then it fits that the sex is graphic too.

[Procrastimancer]

I read Market Forces last week and I enjoyed it quite a bit, maybe not as much as Altered Carbon, but it is definitely up there. Reading reviews, you would think that the book is filled with nothing more than booze, sex, and battling it out on the roadways. An exaggeration from negative reviews, of course, unless I got an edited version that cut out a lot of it. I liked the book and can definitely picture it as a movie. Have a few books to read first, but Black Man and Broken Angels is on the horizon.

[Happy Ent]

Random comments:

I’m still Kovacsing, somewhere in [i]Woken Furries[/i]. While I enjoy these books, I find them [i]far[/i] inferior to Black Man, mainly because of the ridiculousness of the sleeving premise. That seems to me a very pure adaptation of the mind–body dualism that I think is blatantly wrong. Mind you, Morgan does good stuff with the concept, but the whole idea is born out of a conception of Human Nature that is at variance with mine. Faster than light travel I could swallow (it merely breaks phyics as I know it). Downloading “minds” I can’t (it breaks biology as I know it, which to me is the larger crime.)

I suspect that Black Man is born out of the same narrative and didactic urge that drove the original Kovacs novels, but tempered by Pinkerism.

So instead of wanting more Kovacs novels, I’d like sequels to the more recent stuff. Red Man, Yellow Man, and Magenta Man. (The US titles are obvious of course.)

Also: was there a throwaway character in [i]Altered Carbon[/i] called Ertekin working of the UN, or am I hallucinating?

[delete this account pls]

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1682868' date='Feb 12 2009, 02.25']I appreciate the responses.

I still have a tough time swallowing it. He is not just punishing a random group of enemy combatants, or setting them on fire. He's flash frying men he served with. Considering his Envoy training should have helped him to keep that shit under control, to some degree, i have a hard time believing that he would do that. As with any good agent involved in the sort of stuff he has been involved in, i would agree, he could probably fry any number of given people if that was his job. The Wedge, however, were not part of his job description. While what they were doing to Sutjiadi was repugnant, his actions made theirs look tame in comparison.

And personally, if i was part of that group that had been with him, and saw what he was willing to do to former comrades, i would have been hoofing it the other way.

By the way, its never explictely stated what happened to Hand. I can guess, of course, but i enjoyed his character more than most of the former soldiers he picked up as part of his crew. Especially the woman.

Also...i know some others have disargeed already, but i see no reason for the continous heavy sex in your books. Perhaps i am missing something, but i fail to see how they add to the narrative.[/quote]

IMO, it's Kovacs' Envoy training that helped him to do what he did to his old unit in the Wedge, not vice versa. Envoy training helps a person to overcome biological constrictions. In that scene Kovacs is using his training to overcome the biological impulses of his body (the mournful howl of the wolf gene splice). I'd be surprised if Kovacs hadn't performed similar actions in the past. That's how Envoys are used, as the ultimate infiltrators. They wouldn't have such an infamous reputation if they constantly let their missions be compromised by personal connections.

I agree that the scene was disturbing, probably moreso for you considering your past service in the armed forces. But I thought it worked well because of that.

[Arthmail]

I'm going to have to read the book again to get a better feel for it, but Morgan accomplished one thing very well that i have never really felt in a book series before. Disgust. The sort of betrayal that Kovacs commited is beyond my comprehension, and so far is the only character in a novel that has crossed some invisible boundary into TOO much violence. Which probably has something to do with my conditioning, because i was laughing at the carnage in the last Rambo. Perhaps its not the violence itself that made me sick, it was the impetus behind it.

So kudos to you Morgan, you make me sick. Hahaha

As for the statement, i like the pRon and not the sex in the books, it holds water in light of the fact that i don't find the sex scenes at all interesting. Flying jizz and all that do nothing for me, and on top of that - and i don't want to be negative here Mr. Morgan - i find they are becoming very similar in all of the books. Two sex scenes for AC, BA, dunno about WF because i couldn't get over BA, two in BM...and two in MF...i think.

And i do gloss them over. Just stating that i don't like them.

[Arthmail]

Happy Ent - the sleeving process is not so far fetched as it might sound. You should read a book by Ray Kurzweil called the Age of Spiritual Machines. He postulates the posibility of transfering known human thoughts and memories onto computers, and considering his credentials, i believe. It is not so hard to think that what Morgan put in his books is that far off, considering how far it is in the future.

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

[quote]"Market Forces" seems to be his most overlooked work. It was the last one I got round to reading (even after "steel remains") and I feel it's his second best piece of work outside of "altered Carbon". I don't know which book was written first but there's something different about "Market Forces" which makes it feel like a younger work (possibly the toned down sex and the protagonist not being as super hard-ass?).[/quote]

First time I read MF my reaction was meh. I reread it a bit later and my reaction was omgwtfbbqbestthingever.

[quote name='Arthmail' post='1683523' date='Feb 11 2009, 16.06']Happy Ent - the sleeving process is not so far fetched as it might sound. You should read a book by Ray Kurzweil called the Age of Spiritual Machines. He postulates the posibility of transfering known human thoughts and memories onto computers, and considering his credentials, i believe. It is not so hard to think that what Morgan put in his books is that far off, considering how far it is in the future.[/quote]

I think HE's point was that biology affects consciousness. Switch bodies and your mind will be different; you will become a different person. Although, okay, the whole 'computer in your mind' thing would affect this to some degree. It's been a while since I read the Kovacs novels but I don't [i]think[/i] this was really addressed; closest it came was, IIRC, Kovacs getting sleeved in a teenage girl's body to facilitate his, ah, interrogation. This bothers me much less than it does HE.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Max the Mostly Mediocre' post='1683906' date='Feb 12 2009, 08.02']I think HE's point was that biology affects consciousness.[/quote]
I’d rather say it like this: our “self” is [i]not[/i] just software running on universal hardware (the brain). Instead, the wiring of the brain [i]is[/i] the programme. You can’t just “download” the topology of our neural network — well, you could perhaps [i]describe[/i] it digitally and then download it. But then the re-sleeving process would require a physical modification of the sleeve’s brain. It’s entertaining to imagine what kind of thing the sleeve’s brain would have to be in order emulate and translate the information in the cortical stack about the topology of the “old” brain – but the sleeve’s brain wouldn’t be a brain. It would be something else.

Thinkable? Sure. But the idea follows an obsolete understanding of Human Nature: that there is a “ghost in the machine”. This “ghost” is then copied into the cortical stack, and thereby transferred into another machine. But that isn’t how we think it works. The ghost [i]is[/i] the machine, the mind [i]is[/i] the body, and the slate is [i]not[/i] blank.

This modern understanding may of course be as mistaken as the old, Enlightenment-era Blank Slate-ism. Just like modern physics may be mistaken about faster than light travel.

But [i]Black Man[/i], in its understanding of Human Nature, comes out very much in favour [i]for[/i] evolutionary psychology and against the Blank Slate. While the Kovacs novels are pure “ghost in the machine” stuff. Thus, the two families of novels represent opposite schools in our understanding of consciousness and behaviour.