Aethiest sister vs intellectually lazy relgious sister

[Mackaxx]

[quote name='Ser Wolf King' post='1649597' date='Jan 15 2009, 15.30']Molecular biology has shown even the “simplest” life forms to be astoundingly complex. The “irreducible complexity” problem that was difficult for the human eye is impossible for intracellular molecular machinery, and evolutionists know it. It was this realization that drove Crick (of DNA fame) to come up with “directed panspermia”; the idea that life spontaneously evolved somewhere else in the universe and was brought here. Really, just a way to “buy more time” to make the impossible possible.[b] Plus this isn’t about positive proof[/b]. This is about the fact that the irreducible structure of life makes naturalistic explanations impossible (and that “only Intelligent Design meets the criterion of an acceptable historical inference according to the Law of Cause and Effect.”)[/quote]

The bolded sentence that really sums it up, creationism certainly isn't about positive proof, which is why it isn't science. Its about finding a question we have yet to answer and putting god in the drivers seat. Science doesn't work like that was what it took to be a successful scientist all we would do is write wanky articles criticizing what we don't know instead of actually finding the answers.

Its funny that you mention the human eye, which of course was a creationist staple for a long time, you even put a grudging 'difficult' in there. Its another great example of the creationist arsenal of the past, which stretches back all through history, all broken.

[quote name='Ser Wolf King' post='1649602' date='Jan 15 2009, 15.33']Creation, ID and Evolution are all subjective sciences in that they are all forced to make inferences about the unrepeatable past. What Williams is positing is that ID is the ONLY acceptable historical inference with respect to the laws of cause and effect. If you can think of a better historical inference, I would love to hear it.[/quote]

Except we have examples of speciation which we can observe right now, LOTS of them

[Meili]

All of the data is there. Why the endless trying to convince each other? They call it "faith" for a reason, because it is utterly unprovable and scientifically impossible. You will most likely never convince the person who is convinced with the delusion called 'faith' in a higher power. I think they have to come around themselves.

What interests me now is why people still believe such horrible and terrifying religions like Christianity and Islam. If they were true, which they are not, I would tell Saint Peter at the pearly gates or the prophet Muhammad to fuck off and based on MY moral principles, the harm they have caused and teach are reprehensible and directly responsible for a few thousand years of mankind's suffering and continued hindrance of knowledge.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='Meili' post='1649640' date='Jan 15 2009, 00.02']All of the data is there. Why the endless trying to convince each other? They call it "faith" for a reason, because it is utterly unprovable and scientifically impossible. You will most likely never convince the person who is convinced with the delusion called 'faith' in a higher power. I think they have to come around themselves.

What interests me now is why people still believe such horrible and terrifying religions like Christianity and Islam. If they were true, which they are not, I would tell Saint Peter at the pearly gates or the prophet Muhammad to fuck off and based on MY moral principles, the harm they have caused and teach are reprehensible and directly responsible for a few thousand years of mankind's suffering and continued hindrance of knowledge.[/quote]

See ya in hell. :cheers:

Seriously, if I died and discovered that there was a Christian heaven and Jesus Christ was our lord and avior, you would see some intense begging.

[Meili]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1649642' date='Jan 14 2009, 23.03']See ya in hell. :cheers:[/quote]

At least we'll have good company! :grouphug:

[G'Kar]

[quote name='Meili' post='1649644' date='Jan 15 2009, 00.05']At least we'll have good company! :grouphug:[/quote]

I'm already destined to be there. According to the all knowing Shepard Book, there is a special level of hell for people who talk in the theator. I talk in the theator. :uhoh:

[El Chico]

Really, what is this Pascal's Wager shit? If the Christians, especially the evangelicals, are right, (and they most certainly aren't) I'd like to think I'd have a little pride and tell the Judeo-Christian God I didn't accept his belief system because I found it reprehensible.

[Guest thebadlady]

Pascal's wager is too big to fit into a google text box.


Yeah. [url="http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=wg1fs6vp9Ok&feature=channel"]Pascal's Wager[/url] is not really that bad. Its like methadone after the smack.


Pascal's wager is utter fucking bunk if you are on the idiot train due to fear of afterlife.

1. Were you worshipping the correct god
2. were you worshipping the correct god correctly
3 did you follow all the rules correctly BBZZZZAAAAAMMP*!!!

You fail in your pretending to be a good christian woman because you reallydon't believe. You know there could be a possiblity and will keep the tip of a rowboat in, just in case. But you will be more likely to take chances and go above and beyond religious presecpts so you can have fun.

[G'Kar]

Are you guys for real? If you die, go to heaven and realize that the Christian god is the one true god, you are telling me you would tell him to fuck off for being an asshole? I don't know about you but I'd be doing some serious praying. They have Celine Dion music in hell. Yes, its that fucking scary.

[Guest thebadlady]

The Atheists Pascal's Wager. Few religions promise damnation for being in the 'wrong' church. Few religions have specific tasks or journies you have to make before you are allowed in heaven. Many religions just say - be cool dude and da father in the sky, he will love you mon.

Not one of this concerns how you live your life - redemption is in belief. So lets say i am agnostic and am religious only during easter and xmas. There ya go - I am saved.

I hate Pascal's Wager - do as the sheep do so you can sneak into their afterfest. If you get tossed out, oh well, you gave it a good go.

[Guest thebadlady]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1649669' date='Jan 14 2009, 23.44']Are you guys for real? If you die, go to heaven and realize that the Christian god is the one true god, you are telling me you would tell him to fuck off for being an asshole? I don't know about you but I'd be doing some serious praying. They have Celine Dion music in hell. Yes, its that fucking scary.[/quote]


Tell him to fuck off? Probably. If he really loves me he will laugh and take me in. If he is the god that you read about in the bible I'd tell him to fuck off and hold my breathe until i was dead again.

[The Khaleesi]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1649669' date='Jan 15 2009, 18.44']Are you guys for real? If you die, go to heaven and realize that the Christian god is the one true god, you are telling me you would tell him to fuck off for being an asshole? I don't know about you but I'd be doing some serious praying. They have Celine Dion music in hell. Yes, its that fucking scary.[/quote]

heaven and hell are human constructs. We have Celine Dion music right here now in the life we're living. Unfortunately. We make our own heaven and hell.

[Meili]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1649669' date='Jan 14 2009, 23.44']Are you guys for real? If you die, go to heaven and realize that the Christian god is the one true god, you are telling me you would tell him to fuck off for being an asshole? I don't know about you but I'd be doing some serious praying. They have Celine Dion music in hell. Yes, its that fucking scary.[/quote]

What's the alternative? Puff Daddy? Shoot me to oblivion man!

Doesn't the idea of ETERNAL life....as in fucking forever, a horrible thought? I get tired of people now, including family. Imagine spending forever swapping from singing hosannas to an egotistical master control program and chilling with Mick Huckabee and my grandmother. That's hell bro.

Edit...added a TRON reference :thumbsup:

[Deluge]

Hell has all the good musicians.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Deluge' post='1649694' date='Jan 15 2009, 07.30']Hell has all the good musicians.[/quote]
Heaven has Bach. And Palestrina. And Schütz. And Brahms.

Hell can go to Hell.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1649750' date='Jan 15 2009, 03.45']Heaven has Bach. And Palestrina. And Schütz. And Brahms.[/quote]
Wasn't Bach antisemitic and Brahms an agnostic?

More importantly, I've always found that the devil's fiddling was both more intelligent and musically interesting, then Johnny's hokey crud. Does the wicked Charlie Daniels actually expect us to think that Johnny could have won by any means other than cheating? [i] "Chicken in the breadpan picking out dough[/i]" indeed! Religion is not only a threat in terms of ignorance but also hygiene!

[mormont]

First off:

[mod] Can the personal attacks. Right now. [/mod]

[quote name='nazfyratu' post='1649014' date='Jan 14 2009, 21.06']In any case, mormont's point quoted above is valid, and I would go further by saying that it's not always our "definition" of "good", but the understanding of "good" and the value we place on it. Many theists like myself use the following analogy (not a perfect one, but I'm no Augustine): Consider God as a parent and humankind as children. Children think that jumping on the bed is an inherent "good". Because it's fun and it makes them feel better and it does no harm that a child can immediately perceive. What kind of God would consider jumping on the bed "not good" after all? Well, a parent knows and understands that bed-jumping is good and fun and would encourage it if not for the fact that too much or overboisterous bed-jumping will break the bed. Then said parent is out a few hundred bucks. This doesn't mean that the parent is "evil" or doesn't want his children to have fun and enjoy life. But the parent knows that this particular form of fun could have negative consequences that a small child cannot foresee or understand, perhaps due to not understanding the concept of money or the effort involved in getting a new bed. Even if a child did understand all this, they may not perceive it in the context of the family's fiscal situation. Maybe times are rough and now is not a good time to go breaking beds in the house, when the rent is in arrears.[/quote]

The trouble is, God is also supposed to be omnipotent. To stretch the analogy further, God is a parent with an infinite supply of unbreakable beds, should he choose to furnish the house with them. Why won't God let us jump on the bed, dammit?! :tantrum:

This formulation, then, runs into the other horn of the dilemma - it has to redefine 'omnipotence' rather than 'good'. If God is forced (by the way the universe works, or whatever) to allow suffering in order to achieve a greater good or prevent a greater harm, He isn't omnipotent. He is bound by rules. And who set those rules, if not Him?

I repeat: the problem of evil, as formulated, is very simple. The answers, however, work themselves into a very high degree of complexity in their attempts to find a way out. They fail.

[quote name='sio' post='1649365' date='Jan 15 2009, 01.08']Irrelevant.

Face it, you're never going to be able to disprove the existence of God.[/quote]

True, for reasons I have explained above. Evidentiary proof of non-existence is impossible. (Although logical proof of the non-existence of God as Christians believe in him exists, IMO.)

However, to rely on the inability to prove God's non-existence is another fallacy - the argument [i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance"]ad ignorantiam[/url][/i].

[quote name='Vendetto' post='1649458' date='Jan 15 2009, 02.39']Ask all the people who have died on an operating table. Non believers have said it was just random neurons in the brain firing as the brain shut down, yet some people experienced great heat and pain and darkness. Others experienced joy, and light, and warmth. Explain how nobody ever really experiences anything in between...[/quote]

I've studied this phenomenon. I have also experienced something similar, when choked into unconsciousness in an accident when I was 14. Scientific study and my personal experience agree: as intense as the feeling is, as vivid as the experience was, it is a result of biochemical phenomena in the brain. Nothing more. And actually, people frequently do experience 'something in between' - the range and variety of these experiences is vast.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1649755' date='Jan 15 2009, 09.58']Wasn't Bach antisemitic and Brahms an agnostic?[/quote]
OK, I give you Brahms. But that puts him in purgatory [i]at best[/i]. Not Hell.

(Also, I’m sure his Requiem redeems whatever sins he may have committed with Clara Schumann.)

[MinDonner]

Ah, this thread delivers. I wasn't sure about it at first, but it's become a thing of sublime beauty, complete with creationists! :D

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SWK,

I have to say the "irreduciable complexity" argument seems like crap to me. If I remember correctly we believe single celled life arose two and a half billion years ago. That's a [i]very[/i] long time for changes to randomly build into the amazing complexity we see today. On a long enough time line very little is "impossible."

[naz]

[quote name='mormont' post='1649776' date='Jan 15 2009, 04.40']The trouble is, God is also supposed to be omnipotent. To stretch the analogy further, God is a parent with an infinite supply of unbreakable beds, should he choose to furnish the house with them. Why won't God let us jump on the bed, dammit?! :tantrum:[/quote]

Ok, let's change the analogy a bit. Assume the parent is fabulously rich and can afford to replace bed after bed. Are you really a good parent if you allow your kids to break bed after bed just because you can afford to? From the child's perspective, you're "omnipotent" but that doesn't mean you should encourage a waste of resources.