Atheism

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon' post='1714235' date='Mar 9 2009, 17.17']I feel sorry for religions that have unbelieving people who feign belief in order to be a part of the religious community. I think it is harmful for the religions and the unbelieving individuals. If belief is to be belief, it must not be feigned. I would prefer that the unbelievers could be open about their belief and successfully co-exist and with religious believers.[/quote]
I agree with you on this. It's a large part of what separated me from the church (from churches in general). I was sick of seeing the non-believers continually beating themselves up for not believing, and tired of seeing the myriad of pretenders strutting about flaunting their faux faith. I felt that the church, and the church community had come to the point that it was having an adverse affect on my faith. In leaving, I found that my personal faith and ability to feel connected to God (as well as my ability to reason and show tolerance for the beliefs of others) vastly improved. I also saw the adverse conditions that the children who were raised in the faith struggled through. For them, choice was never an option. They did not choose their faith, and as such, many of them had no faith. It was then that I vowed that no matter what choice my children will make for themselves, it will be their choice to make. If/when I ever have children, I'll raise them with good morals and ideals that will strengthen their character, I'll present them with knowledge of my views, I'll let them know of other views also, and (when they are finally old enough to decide for themselves) I will let them decide for themselves what (if anything), they are going to believe. I also vow that whatever choice they make, I will be as supportive and understanding of it as I possibly can be.

[Annelise]

[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1714018' date='Mar 9 2009, 16.55']I'm not gonna let my heart be troubled by these figures. Religion has has weathered the Enlightenment and Communism, it can survive a little apathy from bored Americans.[/quote]

I don't think anyone questions its survival. But you don't really think those who are turning away from religion do so out of boredom, do you? I would think, from the religious POV, the trend would warrant serious examination. Perhaps not you in particular, but church leaders. Perhaps I've misunderstood, but I thought it would be their duty to bring people to Christ, or x religion. Plus, a larger flock can't hurt.

[quote]Ok, if I'm honest I find it sad that you hope for a rise in the number of people who profess no faith. I know that's patronising and rude, and I am sorry for that, truly I am, but I feel bound to give the other side to this anyway.[/quote]

Speaking for myself, I don't hope for people to have no faith. It's fine with me, either way. I do hope for those with faith to reject any part that leads them toward intolerance and hatred. And this includes attempting to force your religion on me via law. Keep the door open and let me know I'm welcome - just don't try to push me through. :)

[IheartTesla]

Hey guys, its ok if someone wants for the numbers of the faithful to increase. Although judging from recent events the RCC seems to be making a superlative effort in driving more people away from religion. Who needs Dawkins and Hitchens when you have Ratzinger! And some random bishop in Brazil.

I speak purely from the Western/Christian perspective of course. All we need now is for some action out East.

[Eponine]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1714248' date='Mar 9 2009, 20.31']It was then that I vowed that no matter what choice my children will make for themselves, it will be their choice to make. If/when I ever have children, I'll raise them with good morals and ideals that will strengthen their character, I'll present them with knowledge of my views, I'll let them know of other views also, and (when they are finally old enough to decide for themselves) I will let them decide for themselves what (if anything), they are going to believe. I also vow that whatever choice they make, I will be as supportive and understanding of it as I possibly can be.[/quote]

Hearing this makes me very happy.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='Annelise' post='1714250' date='Mar 9 2009, 20.34']I don't think anyone questions its survival. But you don't really think those who are turning away from religion do so out of boredom, do you? I would think, from the religious POV, the trend would warrant serious examination. Perhaps not you in particular, but church leaders. Perhaps I've misunderstood, but I thought it would be their duty to bring people to Christ, or x religion. Plus, a larger flock can't hurt.[/quote]Dangers however arise in turning the responsibilities of religious leaders into a marketing scheme (or at least a much more overt one) for converts. But the responsibilities of religious leaders largely depends on their particular "call" in ministry. I do think that it warrants serious examination by the religious, and not just religious leaders, and it is receiving an enormous amount of serious examination. The problem, however, is responding to what is the proper or best response to the trend? That is where the controversy lies.

[quote name='cyrano' post='1714270' date='Mar 9 2009, 20.57']Hey guys, its ok if someone wants for the numbers of the faithful to increase. Although judging from recent events the RCC seems to be making a superlative effort in driving more people away from religion. [b]Who needs Dawkins and Hitchens when you have Ratzinger![/b] And some random bishop in Brazil.

I speak purely from the Western/Christian perspective of course. All we need now is for some action out East.[/quote]What's wrong with His Eminence, Emperor-Pope Palpatine?

[HT Reddy]

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1714213' date='Mar 9 2009, 23.56']No more sad than you proclaiming your desire to see everyone convert to Christianity.

At least you know that it's patronizing and rude. I doubt you're truly sorry for it though, for if you were, you wouldn't have said this in the first place. But thanks for the attempt at appearing reasonable, anyway. It's appreciated.[/quote]

Well, if I'm being honest I know it's patronising and rude because people here have told me so. It wouldn't occur to me how offensive I can be and that is a failing in me for which I am honestly sorry. But I said what I said because it's what I thought in response to the previous posts. Not all thoughts should be posted, of course, but I felt it worth it in this case. It is never my desire to offend - Phil 4 v5 "Let your reasonableness/gentleness be known to everyone" but nor will I be ashamed of what I believe.

[quote name='Eponine' post='1714228' date='Mar 10 2009, 00.09']Ah, irony...[/quote]

I guess. But it's understandable, because I'm not American. I'm assuming what you're getting at is the lack of representation/social acceptance of humanist or secularist views in the 'States? Because I am just not used to a culture like that and you will have to make allowances

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='Eponine' post='1714273' date='Mar 9 2009, 17.59']Hearing this makes me very happy.[/quote]
Which part? The part where I intend to let my children make the choice of faith for themselves, or the part where I said that I don't have any children yet?

[IheartTesla]

[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon' post='1714288' date='Mar 9 2009, 21.16']What's wrong with His Eminence, Emperor-Pope Palpatine?[/quote]

He needs a copy of [i]How to Win Friends and Influence People [/i].

The Pope probably cant recruit too many people to the fold of Christianity, but he can drive them away by inflexible attitudes and over-adherence to dogma. This current Pope has that in oodles. He has no PR skills and demonstrates no empathy for opposing points of view. We've had many threads with his fumbles in the recent past (anti-Islamic statements, statements regarding gays/women and Holocaust denier ex-excommunication).

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='cyrano' post='1714299' date='Mar 9 2009, 21.23']He needs a copy of [i]How to Win Friends and Influence People [/i].

The Pope probably cant recruit too many people to the fold of Christianity, but he can drive them away by inflexible attitudes and over-adherence to dogma. This current Pope has that in oodles. He has no PR skills and demonstrates no empathy for opposing points of view. We've had many threads with his fumbles in the recent past (anti-Islamic statements, statements regarding gays/women and Holocaust denier ex-excommunication).[/quote]The RCC really does have a history of one-step forward, two-steps back in regards to their reforms and various statements made.

[Annelise]

[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon' post='1714288' date='Mar 9 2009, 21.16']I do think that it warrants serious examination by the religious, and not just religious leaders[/quote]

It's not that I'm arguing with you, just that I'm not personally comfortable suggesting that every person of faith should consider it their duty to do so. S'why I focused on leaders, but I don't mean suggest it should be to the exclusion of anyone else. Not at all.

If you're so inclined (and no worries if not), what are the various schools of thought out there on how to approach the issue?

[Eponine]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1714290' date='Mar 9 2009, 21.17']Which part? The part where I intend to let my children make the choice of faith for themselves, or the part where I said that I don't have any children yet?[/quote]

Just... never mind. It's not nice to bait someone trying to compliment you.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='Annelise' post='1714340' date='Mar 9 2009, 22.03']It's not that I'm arguing with you, just that I'm not personally comfortable suggesting that every person of faith should consider it their duty to do so. S'why I focused on leaders, but I don't mean suggest it should be to the exclusion of anyone else. Not at all.[/quote]I understand your point.

[quote]If you're so inclined (and no worries if not), what are the various schools of thought out there on how to approach the issue?[/quote]To overgeneralize: it is a matter of traditional vs. contemporary vs. emerging church forms of worship. Orthodox theology vs. liberal theology. Conservative vs. liberals in opening the ordination of women, gays and lesbians, transgendered and marriage of homosexuals. Exclusion vs. inclusion. Focus of the church: missions, ministry, service, worship, proselytizing, etc. There is also the question of "what do you the youth of today want out of religion?"

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='Eponine' post='1714354' date='Mar 9 2009, 19.11']Just... never mind. It's not nice to bait someone trying to compliment you.[/quote]
I truly do appreciate the compliment. I was not attempting to bait you, I was just... well... come to think of it, I was asking for a bashing with that one, wasn't I? My bad. Thank you for the kind remarks, none the less.

[Anatole Kuragin]

[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1714018' date='Mar 9 2009, 15.55']I'm not gonna let my heart be troubled by these figures. Religion has has weathered [b]intelligence[/b] and [b]science[/b], it can survive a little [b]boldness[/b] from Americans [b]who are tired of stupidity[/b].[/quote]

Ah, now I get it.

[Teri]

[quote name='Annelise' post='1714250' date='Mar 9 2009, 16.34']Speaking for myself, I don't hope for people to have no faith. It's fine with me, either way. I do hope for those with faith to reject any part that leads them toward intolerance and hatred. And this includes attempting to force your religion on me via law.[/quote]

:agree:

I have no animosity towards the expression of religion or even its prevalence, just to the attitude that some (not all) of the religious have that the irreligious or those of different religions than their own are somehow less moral or less qualified for public office.

[Crazydog7]

[quote name='Kat' post='1675464' date='Feb 5 2009, 17.51']I wonder if there has ever been an atheism discussion on the entire internet that does not involve:

1. 1+ atheists looking down on religious people for being deluded and/or irrational, if not the source of all the world's problems.
2. 1+ religious people admitting that atheists can be good people too, but it's such a shame they don't see the one true light.
3. A heated discussion on the speed at which natural selection occurs.
4. A heated discussion on the vicious nature of God of the Old Testament and what a bastard he was.


Someone should make a bingo card. :P

ETA: It appears someone has made one for [url="http://skeptico.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/09/08/id_bingo_card_2.jpg"]ID debates[/url].[/quote]

Bingo. At least you guys managed to be nice to each other after Mr. I Hit a guy in the Mouth Today left the thread.

[Ocean of Notions]

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-Cathedral-Evolution-Religion-Society/dp/0226901343"]A book I've been meaning to read.[/url] It's written by a professor I took a couple of classes with.

As for religion or this "god" person, I'm no big fan. However, it's not my business or duty to decide for other people.

These days, my circle of friends tend to be people who are either somewhat religious, theistic or put stock in other supernatural things. It's little alienating being the only atheist and generally non-spiritual person, especially when they feel that it's okay to be rude or make fun of my believes, but become incredibly defensive or offended if I say anything about theirs. 'Makes me miss friends (even more so) who have moved away. It makes me stay away from discussion of religion and the supernatural in general. So why am I posting here? I don't know.

:leaving:

[Eponine]

[quote name='HT Reddy' post='1714289' date='Mar 9 2009, 21.16']Well, if I'm being honest I know it's patronising and rude because people here have told me so. It wouldn't occur to me how offensive I can be and that is a failing in me for which I am honestly sorry.[/quote]

To be fair, I think you've been held somewhat to a double standard about not expressing your opinion about religion. Certainly you've said some things that I've felt were patronizing, and I have no problem saying so, but it seems that when you tell people that you believe in god, it's more often seen as proselytizing than when other people tell you that there is no god or that your sig was offensive. I didn't LIKE your sig but that was no reason for you to feel like you had to take it down.

[El-ahrairah]

[quote name='Anatole Kuragin' post='1714371' date='Mar 9 2009, 22.35']Ah, now I get it.[/quote]
While some of your revisions to my post make sense from a rational secular viewpoint, if you think "Communism" is the same as "science" I pity you.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1714482' date='Mar 10 2009, 01.11']While some of your revisions to my post make sense from a rational secular viewpoint, if you think "Communism" is the same as "science" I pity you.[/quote]::MFC reads Anatole Kuragin's response to El-ahrairah:: ::MFC reads El-ahrairah's response to Anatole Kuragin:: :unsure: Huh?