Yellow fever

[The Progressive]

[quote name='Iskaral Pust' post='1677652' date='Feb 6 2009, 18.09']I'm not here to defend that cultural stereotype (Korean male chauvinism) because I only have hearsay rather than having lived in Korea myself, but I think it is clear that cultures do vary in levels of chauvinism, e.g. women don't have to wear a burqa in America, and Korea is commonly perceived to be more chauvinist than average. That impression has been converyed to me through newspaper reporting of Korean culture. Check out the NYTimes articles on Korean men now importing subservient wives from poorer south east Asian countries because of the shortage of Korean marriageable women and the growing reluctance of those women to accept the traditional marriage role.

Of course, this could all be some big perpetuation of a flawed stereotype, but I think you would have a difficult time establishing that Korean culture has not traditionally been very sexist and instead it's all myth concocted by Korean-American women as a politically correct mask for their true motivation (whatever you think that might be).

BTW, my wife's female Asian-American friends are not all Korean-American, not by a long way. This aversion to a chauvinist tradition seems pretty well spread across east-Asian-American women, in my limited anecdotal evidence.[/quote]

I know you're not defending negative cultural stereotype, but the uncritical reception of them, even if it's coming from an anecdotal sample group is still questionable. Now I'm quite aware of the phenomenon as reported by the NYTimes, but as Eponine has corrected pointed out, this could be explained in terms of the gender imbalance in those countries.

There's no doubt that sexism is much more prevalent in other countries as you've pointed out, but if I could draw your attention to a particularly crucial details ............ these Asian-American female friends of your wife are mostly have been born or raised up in America. Their male counterparts, therefore, aren't men from places like China or Korea and they're not expected to come back to those countries to get marry to some natives. More realistically, their counterparts are Asian-American men who were born and raised and educated and living here in the US. Therefore, the hypothesis offered by these acquaintances of your about chauvinism seems awfully hollow. I would contend that Asian-American males born or grew up in the US are no more or less chauvinistic than any other group, and there's no data that I'm aware of that would contradict this. So why do these women cling on and perpetuate this stereotype, their motive I could only speculate on based upon the study cited earlier about attractiveness.

[Iskaral Pust]

[quote name='Pax Thien Jolie-Pitt' post='1677798' date='Feb 6 2009, 23.35']I know you're not defending negative cultural stereotype, but the uncritical reception of them, even if it's coming from an anecdotal sample group is still questionable. Now I'm quite aware of the phenomenon as reported by the NYTimes, but as Eponine has corrected pointed out, this could be explained in terms of the gender imbalance in those countries.

There's no doubt that sexism is much more prevalent in other countries as you've pointed out, but if I could draw your attention to a particularly crucial details ............ these Asian-American female friends of your wife are mostly have been born or raised up in America. Their male counterparts, therefore, aren't men from places like China or Korea and they're not expected to come back to those countries to get marry to some natives. More realistically, their counterparts are Asian-American men who were born and raised and educated and living here in the US. Therefore, the hypothesis offered by these acquaintances of your about chauvinism seems awfully hollow. I would contend that Asian-American males born or grew up in the US are no more or less chauvinistic than any other group, and there's no data that I'm aware of that would contradict this. So why do these women cling on and perpetuate this stereotype, their motive I could only speculate on based upon the study cited earlier about attractiveness.[/quote]

I concede that Asian-American men should have shed any chauvinistic traditions from the old country. However, chances are that the mother of the Asian-American man, the potential mother-in-law, has not yet shed the traditions, which can make life miserable for any daughter-in-law. The traditional Korean wife role is to be entirely subservient to your husband and in-laws, typically enduring great misery at the hands of the mother-in-law. Parents live with sons, and daughter-in-laws take care of these in-laws and wait on them hand and foot.

I think there was more depth to Eponine's point than you realize, but perhaps I misread it.

The reason there are so few marriageable women in Korea is the years of selective abortions of female fetuses in favor of male offspring. That's a huge indication of a tradition of sexism. Remember, sons will look after parents in their old age (or at least their wife will)
Now that there are so few marriageable women in Korea, they can be picky, and they are choosing progressive husbands, rejecting the traditional chauvinists.
These traditional chauvinists, especially in rural areas, are therefore forced to look for non-Korean brides - a shameful thing for a traditional minded Korean. But since they are forced to look abroad, the trend is for them to look in the poorer south-east Asian countries for women who are so poor and already used to a chauvinist culture that they will accept the traditional wife role in Korea because it's still a step up.

I thought Eponine was especially emphasizing the result of parental attitudes to daughters in Korea leading to the dearth of marriageable Korean women.

[Humble Asskicker]

I've known a lot of guys with Asian fever - the serious, crippling, only lusts after Asian women sort of Asian fever. And just by that, I'm fine with it. I don't care if they just have a natural attraction to the facial and physical structure of Asians, or if they want some subservient chick to dominate as they play oshujinsama (means husband and master in Japanese). Whatever their reason, it means little to me, because people can do as they please with each other.

But I don't have any respect at all for the motherfuckers. All too often, this is the interaction I've witnessed - English speaking douchebag can't land himself a girlfriend of his own country and so goes to Japan to sow his wild oats. Japanese girl actually gives a shit about her education and so tacitly exchanges the promise (and often enough, the enactment) of sexual favors if aforementioned horny douchebag continues to natter in English. Douchebag is overjoyed, doesn't learn Japanese and returns as he came, an ignorant douchebag. (This by the way pisses off a lot of Japanese guys, who don't like it at all when the womenfolk go and get themselves laid exclusively by gaijin (derogatory word for foreigners)).

However, Japanese girl is my hero. It's kind of a catch-22: I can't bring myself to actually date them because I know they will try to exploit me for my English (fair enough; I do the same to them for their Japanese), but I find myself strangely attracted to my own flock.

Of course, I want to note that this is merely a general trend that I've observed, and certainly doesn't apply to everyone. I've met lots of really cool guys who are pretty much man-whores to every race, and happened to be in Japan at the time so took what was available. And I've known Japanese girls who are trite and think love is important, not race or language, or have no interest at all in foreign dudes.

You know, it just occurred to me that this might be an individual sort of thing. You know, people vary, ergo their reasons for doing whatever the fuck it is they do might vary.

I will dash that thought and resume the generalizations of this thread.

[IheartTesla]

[quote name='Chataya de Venoge' post='1677511' date='Feb 6 2009, 18.50']Hey, Sanjay Gupta is hot - good looking and totally brilliant.[/quote]

He's an Atlanta native too. But such a disappointment to the India community.....couldnt he have wrangled a Cabinet-level position at the very least?

[turinturambar]

[quote name='Balefont' post='1677638' date='Feb 6 2009, 21.40']No. Irishmen have the biggest. :thumbsup:[/quote]

I had heard it was the Polish.

[Tears of Lys]

[quote name='KazigluBey' post='1677481' date='Feb 6 2009, 18.32']I date women of any race, but I'm particularly attracted to black women (I'm a white guy). Is this wrong? Why should anyone have to defend their aesthetic preferences?[/quote]

Random thought: I always thought KazigluBey was Asian. :unsure:

Another random thought re: the laughable stereotype of Black=large, Asian=small, etc., I've always thought about the poor small-membered African-American guys who have to face the first unveiling to someone laboring under an unfortunate misapprehension. Talk about performance anxiety...

[Tears of Lys]

RE: Sanjay Gupta

[quote name='cyrano' post='1678095' date='Feb 7 2009, 10.21']He's an Atlanta native too. But such a disappointment to the India community.....couldnt he have wrangled a Cabinet-level position at the very least?[/quote]

Just remember the Asians also have to live down Connie Chung. :P

[turinturambar]

[quote name='Tears of Lys' post='1678192' date='Feb 7 2009, 13.26']Another random thought re: the laughable stereotype of Black=large, Asian=small, etc., I've always thought about the poor small-membered African-American guys who have to face the first unveiling to someone laboring under an unfortunate misapprehension. Talk about performance anxiety...[/quote]

Ya know...speaking of that.... We had this guy on our football team. He was the MIKE LB, 6'4" 230lb black guy. His nickname was "pinky" for a particular reason, I'm sure you can imagine why. The poor guy had to deal with this all the time. Certain women would seek him out because of these stereotypes. He was afraid to take any of these women to bed for fear of humiliation(one girl laughed at him once and he had issues ever since). Some people are cruel.

[TerraPrime]

I wonder how many times would the idea that we're not criticizing people for interracial dating, but on the motivation behind some of these people, before people will stop popping in to this thread with the feeble protest of "why are you criticizing me when I do not have an Asian fetish?"

Well, kind sir and madam, if you don't date an Asian because of your fetishized view of a minority culture, or if you don't exoticize Asians, then you're not the target of our criticism. One would presume that this is easy enough to discern. But apparently not.

It also bears pointing out that several of us have experienced this phenomenon directly, and many others have witnessed it. The indignant reaction to the revelation of this phenomenon heretofore unknown to you should be tempered with this piece of information. That you, personally, haven't done any of this is rather irrelevant to the existence of this phenomenon.

But then, perhaps you do have the tendency to exoticize Asians, but you just don't want it pointed out to you. Hard for us to tell. But if this is the case, then use this as an educational tool to be either better at hiding your creepiness or to work on not treating people like fetish dolls.

[Jaime L]

This thread delivers.

What's it called when it goes the other way. When Asian women are into white men? Albino Fever? Seasonal Affective Disorder? What?!

[Shryke]

[quote name='turinturambar' post='1678213' date='Feb 7 2009, 12.48']Ya know...speaking of that.... We had this guy on our football team. He was the MIKE LB, 6'4" 230lb black guy. His nickname was "pinky" for a particular reason, I'm sure you can imagine why. The poor guy had to deal with this all the time. Certain women would seek him out because of these stereotypes. He was afraid to take any of these women to bed for fear of humiliation([b]one girl laughed at him once[/b] and he had issues ever since). Some people are cruel.[/quote]

Wow.

That's just fucking MEAN.

[zollo]

[quote name='Jaime M' post='1678262' date='Feb 7 2009, 21.15']This thread delivers.[/quote]

In the "boarders that jump into this thread without bothering to read the whole discussion but give their ill-informed, stupid-ass opinion on the topic regardless" category?

Cause, in that case, I am with you, M.

[zakalwe7]

Interesting thread

Is haggis fever when north american woman fantisise about Scots men as manly, strong, uncultured, 'passionate', living in a wee house in the glen, wearing a kilt, playing bagpipes, with an adorable accent and living a simple and unsophisticated life?

[Iskaral Pust]

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1678259' date='Feb 7 2009, 14.12']I wonder how many times would the idea that we're not criticizing people for interracial dating, but on the motivation behind some of these people, before people will stop popping in to this thread with the feeble protest of "why are you criticizing me when I do not have an Asian fetish?"

Well, kind sir and madam, if you don't date an Asian because of your fetishized view of a minority culture, or if you don't exoticize Asians, then you're not the target of our criticism. One would presume that this is easy enough to discern. But apparently not.

It also bears pointing out that several of us have experienced this phenomenon directly, and many others have witnessed it. The indignant reaction to the revelation of this phenomenon heretofore unknown to you should be tempered with this piece of information. That you, personally, haven't done any of this is rather irrelevant to the existence of this phenomenon.

But then, perhaps you do have the tendency to exoticize Asians, but you just don't want it pointed out to you. Hard for us to tell. But if this is the case, then use this as an educational tool to be either better at hiding your creepiness or to work on not treating people like fetish dolls.[/quote]

You can't imagine why people would be offended that this crass generalization is perpetuated and promoted?

We've discussed stereotypes before and how they can form around a pattern exhibited by a minority within a category and then set preconceptions for everyone in that category. This topic is no different than racist whites, criminal blacks, academically gifted Asians, criminal Romany, and all the other stereotypes we've discussed.

Do you think that yellow fever accounts for the majority of white-asian relationships? I think this is an important indicator of your attitude here. If you think that majority of white-asian relationships are actually driven by yellow fever, then your narrow prejudice should hear a rebuttal from all the people here that don't fit that pattern. If you think that only a minority of white-asian relationships are due to yellow fever, then you are inconsiderately tarring a lot of people with a very broad and defamatory brush.

It's a weak cop-out to say you are only criticizing the true yellow fever people. That's not how bigoted labels work. There isn't enough discernment, that's just a pretence that bigots hide behind: "We know [i]you're[/i] not like that, it's the other ones we're talking about."

If you want to have some fun piling on a negative stereotype, ignoring the offense it causes others, then you're not going to get a free pass on that in this kind of forum. If you get mugged by a black guy tomorrow, your personal experience does not mean that everyone will tolerate you to post here about black criminals. Would you expect any African-American posters to ignore your comments because the comments don't apply specifically to them and obviously the stereotype will never injure them?

Aren't you a mod? You seem far too smart to claim you can't see why it's not OK to have a little fun dissing a stereotype that might inappropriately become a label for a much larger group.

[Shryke]

[quote]Do you think that yellow fever accounts for the majority of white-asian relationships?[/quote]

No.

Hence many people laughing their asses off at "boarders that jump into this thread without bothering to read the whole discussion but give their ill-informed, stupid-ass opinion on the topic regardless".

This thread is composed of:

1) Those who actually know what Yellow Fever means
2) Those who are offended by what they think Yellow Fever means

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Zollo' post='1678322' date='Feb 7 2009, 14.22']In the "boarders that jump into this thread without bothering to read the whole discussion but give their ill-informed, stupid-ass opinion on the topic regardless" category?

Cause, in that case, I am with you, M.[/quote]

Yes, because everyone dredges through 5+ pages of shit before they've earned the right to post on a topic.

[tzanth]

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1678259' date='Feb 7 2009, 11.12'][i]Well, kind sir and madam, if you don't date an Asian because of your fetishized view of a minority culture, or if you don't exoticize Asians, then you're not the target of our criticism.[/i] One would presume that this is easy enough to discern. But apparently not.

[i]But then, perhaps you do have the tendency to exoticize Asians, but you just don't want it pointed out to you. [/i]Hard for us to tell. But if this is the case, then use this as an educational tool to be either better at hiding your creepiness or to work on not treating people like fetish dolls.[/quote]

Yeesh, what is this? Guilty until proven innocent? :stunned:

How hard is it to see that using stereotypes to describe people is bad regardless of whether your talking about someones skin color or the people they chose to date?

[Shryke]

[quote]Yes, because everyone dredges through 5+ pages of shit before they've earned the right to post on a topic.[/quote]

It helps to read WTF the thread is about before getting your "righteous indignation" on.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1678345' date='Feb 7 2009, 14.46']It helps to read WTF the thread is about before getting your "righteous indignation" on.[/quote]

Threads are about whatever the people posting in it choose to discuss. Sometimes its a continuation of previous pages, sometimes its not. In either case, its hardly worth shitting on people who didn't have the time or dedication to scour 5-6 pages before they offered their thoughts on the OP.

[Shryke]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1678349' date='Feb 7 2009, 15.50']Threads are about whatever the people posting in it choose to discuss. Sometimes its a continuation of previous pages, sometimes its not. In either case, its hardly worth shitting on people who didn't have the time or dedication to scour 5-6 pages before they offered their thoughts on the OP.[/quote]

It's worth shitting on people who get all up in arms about something no ones eevn talkign about that has been explained like 5+ times in the thread already.