The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII

[HaeSuse]

And in there lies my whole point. Who misinformed Brandon and why?

You read too much into it. There are a hundred times in the books where GRRM makes a point of making it blatantly clear that information is more often than not mis-information, in Westeros.

[Mixta]

Love the ideas.

Agree with:

1) Idea that LF is involved with the manner in which Brandon goes to KL. It fits perfectly. However, there is no way Peter actually broke the news to Brandon. It is far more likely he used someone else as a pawn to do this - unless he came to Brandon as a "fellow mourner of this travesty".

2) Rhaegar and Lyanna go willing.

Now here is the new idea in my post. People say that the Targs were like a flip of the coin. Great or Crazy.

Crazy thoughts:

1) Rhaegar has both the madness and the greatness. Craziness comes from his obsession with the AA/PwwP prophecy. Thus Rhaegar is blinded by this prophecy and will do anything to fulfill it.

2) This could bring us to two situations:

a) Lyanna fell in love and believes either Rhaegar/Jon is the PwwP - Demands that Ned tells this to Jon. The KG is protecting Jon.

B) Lyanna realizes the coin is now turned over and Rhaegar is insane. She no longer loves him. The KG is holding her hostage.

Have at it people. Rip it to shreds or agree with it, just post about it.

Edit: That smiley face is supposed to be a b but it wont go away.

:spank:

[King Hodor]

This isn't so much an addition to the theory, just something that came to me as I mulled over R+L=J on my walk to school. (Yes, I'm that cool.) If it IS true, then Jon's paternal grandfather burned his maternal one alive... I think I knew that, subconsciously, but the gravity of it just kind of hit me as I was walking, and I've gotta admit, I got a little teary-eyed. (Yes, I'm that cool.)

[T.D. Newton]

I love this thread because I love this topic.

I don't have anything to add, really, except that I came to this conclusion without rumor-hunting on my 2nd readthrough of the series. I was proud of myself for that, especially because it means I'm not as crazy as I thought!

[3idcrow]

I love this thread because I love this topic.

I don't have anything to add, really, except that I came to this conclusion without rumor-hunting on my 2nd readthrough of the series. I was proud of myself for that, especially because it means I'm not as crazy as I thought!

Same here. This is actually how I found this forum, I wanted to see if someone else shared my revelation. As it happens, some did!

[Prince of the North]

This isn't so much an addition to the theory, just something that came to me as I mulled over R+L=J on my walk to school. (Yes, I'm that cool.) If it IS true, then Jon's paternal grandfather burned his maternal one alive... I think I knew that, subconsciously, but the gravity of it just kind of hit me as I was walking, and I've gotta admit, I got a little teary-eyed. (Yes, I'm that cool.)

This is an interesting observation that I, like you, think I knew subconsciously but hadn't really thought about too much. Of course, if R+L=J then Jon is a Targaryen and maybe it's yet another instance of that whole "madness and greatness being combined in Targaryens" thing? Flip a coin, indeed ;)

[Quanta]

I'm sure this has been brought up numerous times in these threads but the idea of searching them for the topic is rather daunting.

One of the biggest problems I've had with the R+L=J theory is Jon's appearance. He doesn't seem to have any Targaryen features. While it is certainly possible that is due to Jon just taking very strongly to his Stark parentage, it still bothers me.

I'm not certain that Jon even really resemble Lyanna as strongly as he resembles Ned. Lyanna was supposed to be quite beautiful but Ned isn't. His features are too strongly cut to be considered beautiful. Since Lyanna was described as very beautiful I always assumed she had softer features. After all, Arya has Ned's strong features and she certainly isn't described as being beautiful. And Jon is described as looking a great deal like Ned.

I could be wrong about Jon not resembling Lyanna. In fact, references to Jon strongly resembling Ned could be GRRM being intentionally misleading; if so, then I've been successfully mislead. Jon's appearance makes me skeptical of R+L=J.

I'm positive this has been discussed before but considering that this is part VII I don't feel to bad about beating this dead horse even further.

[King Hodor]

I'm sure this has been brought up numerous times in these threads but the idea of searching them for the topic is rather daunting.

One of the biggest problems I've had with the R+L=J theory is Jon's appearance. He doesn't seem to have any Targaryen features. While it is certainly possible that is due to Jon just taking very strongly to his Stark parentage, it still bothers me.

I'm not certain that Jon even really resemble Lyanna as strongly as he resembles Ned. Lyanna was supposed to be quite beautiful but Ned isn't. His features are too strongly cut to be considered beautiful. Since Lyanna was described as very beautiful I always assumed she had softer features. After all, Arya has Ned's strong features and she certainly isn't described as being beautiful. And Jon is described as looking a great deal like Ned.

I could be wrong about Jon not resembling Lyanna. In fact, references to Jon strongly resembling Ned could be GRRM being intentionally misleading; if so, then I've been successfully mislead. Jon's appearance makes me skeptical of R+L=J.

I'm positive this has been discussed before but considering that this is part VII I don't feel to bad about beating this dead horse even further.

Well, I'm not sure if it's been discussed either, but here are my thoughts. In AGoT, Eddard tells Arya that she looks like Lyanna, and Arya says something like, "What? But she was beautiful!" Now, it might just be Eddard being a good father and boosting Arya's self-esteem, or she might actually look like Lyanna. Combine that with all the times it is mentioned that Arya looks like Jon, and Jon looks more Stark that Catelyn's sons, and that is quite convincing, IMO.

I agree, though, about Jon not having a Targaryen look to him. Though, perhaps that is just GRRM making it more fun for us. After all, how obvious would it be if Jon had violet eyes and long silver hair?

Another thing that makes be buy into R+L=J is the scene in AGoT where Eddard and Cersei are in the godwood, and Eddard is confronting Cersei about her incest, telling her to take her children and go, etc. Eddard asks Cersei what Robert ever did to make Cersei hate him so. And Cersei replies (paraphrasing as best I can) "He whispered her name. That stupid dead sister of yours. He was on top of me and inside of me and stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna." And then GRRM writes something like, "And at that moment, Eddard wasn't sure which one of them he pitied the most." As in, Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar.

[Edward the Great]

I agree, though, about Jon not having a Targaryen look to him. Though, perhaps that is just GRRM making it more fun for us. After all, how obvious would it be if Jon had violet eyes and long silver hair?

Martin has conveniently prevented anyone that would recognize Rhaegar from seeing Jon.

[King Hodor]

Martin has conveniently prevented anyone that would recognize Rhaegar from seeing Jon.

Are you sure? Robert and the Lannisters saw Jon at Winterfell; admittedly they never sat down to share wine and lemoncakes, but surely someone would have said, "Hey, Jon looks like Rhaegar." Would Catelyn ever have seen Rhaegar?

[Aryen]

Are you sure? Robert and the Lannisters saw Jon at Winterfell; admittedly they never sat down to share wine and lemoncakes, but surely someone would have said, "Hey, Jon looks like Rhaegar." Would Catelyn ever have seen Rhaegar?

I would have thought that Catelyn would have seen Rhaegar at the tourney at Harrenhal, since the whole realm was pretty much in attendance. Plus, maybe Jon just has Rhaegar's finer facial features, ones that you'd need a good look at to notice.

[Jonias Snow]

Martin has conveniently prevented anyone that would recognize Rhaegar from seeing Jon.

Actually there is one that has recognized Rhaegar's features in Jon, and he even asked Jon does he dream of dragon's. Tyrion diffently notices something about Jon (remember Tyrion avidly reads anything), so I believe Tyrion as been researching R+L and to me Tyrion goes to the wall as an excuse to follow Jon and see if his R+L theory could be accurate. Tyrion is a great detective and he knows that Lyanna's bedsheets covered in blood means a birth and also the KG protecting her means something important was taking place to warrant their presence (Ned to Ser Dayne "I thought of meeting you at the Trident, but you were not there". So obviously the KG guarding Lyanna was more important than Rhaegar (why? I am sure Tyrion wonders). Tyrion also knows about Ned's so called bastard son, who apparently was born around the same time as Lyanna's death, Tyrion has connected the dots, he also knows Jon will be far safer at the wall than down south, as Ned figured and also growing and learning at the wall will be great training and faster maturity.

[Quanta]

Before anything else I'm going to say that something does not compute with Eddard's tale of the Tower of Joy. The biggest of course is whatever Ned had to promise Lyanna and R+L=J makes a lot of sense in that context.

Well, I'm not sure if it's been discussed either, but here are my thoughts. In AGoT, Eddard tells Arya that she looks like Lyanna, and Arya says something like, "What? But she was beautiful!" Now, it might just be Eddard being a good father and boosting Arya's self-esteem, or she might actually look like Lyanna. Combine that with all the times it is mentioned that Arya looks like Jon, and Jon looks more Stark that Catelyn's sons, and that is quite convincing, IMO.

I agree, though, about Jon not having a Targaryen look to him. Though, perhaps that is just GRRM making it more fun for us. After all, how obvious would it be if Jon had violet eyes and long silver hair?

All of this is definitely possible, especially the first bit about Arya looking like Lyanna. That said, throughout the series, GRRM makes his characters resemble their relatives. Even Robb is mentioned to have some Stark features. Catelyn notices them when Robb takes charge while she's staying at Bran's bedside. Also, the primary evidence that Cersei's children aren't Robbert's is that the have all Lannister traits and none of Robbert's. It just seems to be a consistent theme. If R+L=J I'd have expected some subtle non-Starky trait that could have been passed off as being from his supposed mother, or even a touch of the good old Targaryen madness.

Another thing that makes be buy into R+L=J is the scene in AGoT where Eddard and Cersei are in the godwood, and Eddard is confronting Cersei about her incest, telling her to take her children and go, etc. Eddard asks Cersei what Robert ever did to make Cersei hate him so. And Cersei replies (paraphrasing as best I can) "He whispered her name. That stupid dead sister of yours. He was on top of me and inside of me and stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna." And then GRRM writes something like, "And at that moment, Eddard wasn't sure which one of them he pitied the most." As in, Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar.

I looked up the quote it goes

"'What did he do to make you hate him so?' Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. 'The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.' Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. 'I do not know which of you I pity most.'"

The which of you must refer to Robbert and Cersei. The question is why does he pity Robert. Cersei is obvious; she is married to a man who is in love with a dead woman and who will never love her. Why he pities Robbert is less clear. It could be that he pities him for being married to a cruel woman like Cersei. Or it could be because he is in love with a dead woman and can't let go. If I understand you right, you're suggesting that it is because Robbert is in love with a dead woman who didn't love him in return? Or are you suggesting that the which of you refers to Lyanna and Cersei? Since their conversation is about Robbert I strongly doubt that you would refer to Lyanna.

Actually there is one that has recognized Rhaegar's features in Jon, and he even asked Jon does he dream of dragon's.

I just re-read that part earlier today. Tyrion never asks Jon if he dreams about dragons, he told Jon he dreamed about dragons. And that he would set small fires and watch the flames for hours imagining it was dragon's fire and sometimes imagine his father or sister burning in it. He then accuses Jon of having similar dreams, not about dragons but about usurping his brothers' inheritance.

he also knows Jon will be far safer at the wall than down south, as Ned figured and also growing and learning at the wall will be great training and faster maturity.

The problem with that is that when Jon makes his oath he gives up whatever claim he'd have to the throne if in fact R+L=J.

[Lady Blackfish]

I don't make much of the lack of traditional Targaryen features in Jon's face, no more than I make of traditional Stark features in Sansa's face. Jon pretty much assuredly has some non-Stark parent, yet the features of that parent don't seem to show through regardless of whether or not it's a Targaryen. So this doesn't seem to have much to tell us about the identity of the non-Stark parent either way. He simply favors his Stark parent.

Unless you say it must necessitate Ned + Lyanna or something, but I'd bet anything against that.

[Edward the Great]

The problem with that is that when Jon makes his oath he gives up whatever claim he'd have to the throne if in fact R+L=J.

Royal decree supercedes any law or tradition. Maester Aemon was offerred the Iron Throne and could have taken it. Jon can leave the Night's Watch. Martin has not put a red herring in the plot but rather is creating genuine drama. How far will Jon take his oaths? Which one will he choose to violate when put into a corner?

He's already violated his oaths once by shagging Ygritte.

He violates them again when he aids Stannis in the retaking of the North.

I will reiterate my own prediction, Jon will leave the Night's Watch or his presence will destroy it.

[King Hodor]

I looked up the quote it goes

"'What did he do to make you hate him so?' Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. 'The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.' Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. 'I do not know which of you I pity most.'"

The which of you must refer to Robbert and Cersei. The question is why does he pity Robert. Cersei is obvious; she is married to a man who is in love with a dead woman and who will never love her. Why he pities Robbert is less clear. It could be that he pities him for being married to a cruel woman like Cersei. Or it could be because he is in love with a dead woman and can't let go. If I understand you right, you're suggesting that it is because Robbert is in love with a dead woman who didn't love him in return? Or are you suggesting that the which of you refers to Lyanna and Cersei? Since their conversation is about Robbert I strongly doubt that you would refer to Lyanna.

I highlighted the one that I think is accurate. Robert plunging the entire realm into war over a woman who didn't love him back, at least not in a romantic sense, is perfect GRRM tragic style.

Indeed, perhaps Lyanna loved Robert as a friend or even in a brotherly way, and the "Promise me, Ned" could have been to spare Robert's feelings as much as it was to protect Jon Snow.

[Kemm]

Since I'm new, I have probably missed important facts discussed in this thread and its predecessors, but for what I have read so far, it matches my own observations.

But I now want to point to a certain part of the profecy: "The dragon has three heads".

One head is Dany. It's almost certain that Jon is the second. But, who is the third? Aemon was too old and he is now dead.

What I think? Two clues. Myrcella's lookalike was said too fool everybody because all blonde girls look alike. It is said that Rhaenys corpse was put before Tywin, she was inside a rolled carpet, only her hair showing.

[King Hodor]

I think the other two heads, if there are any, will both be men, as an inverse/parallel of Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters (Visenya and Rhaenys, I wanna say, but the names escape me.)

Jon? Tyrion? Selmy? Euron? Victarion? Mormont?

[Edward the Great]

One head is Dany. It's almost certain that Jon is the second. But, who is the third? Aemon was too old and he is now dead.

This assumes that Dany and Jon are destined to be allies. I would not assume that. I also have a hard time believing that either would accept a position in service to the other.

Dany+Jon=lovers is just too convenient. Martin doesn't go for convenient.

[Thoheeks Bili]

This assumes that Dany and Jon are destined to be allies. I would not assume that. I also have a hard time believing that either would accept a position in service to the other.

Oh, don't worry....there will be some kind of "servicing" done when they meet :drool: :lmao: