The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII

[HaeSuse]

This absolutely, 100% could be the truth of it. There is evidence for this in the books.

Except it does not fully explain Brandon's roll in all this. Why did Brandon want Rhaegar dead if all he did was "run off" with Lyanna? Is that really a killing offense? If that was all Brandon thought- that Lyanna had run off with Rhaegar- than it really changes much Brandons actions from being "honorable and a little reckless?" to "reckless and only a little honorable." Brandon is actually more than just a hot-head; he's kind of a total idiot.

Brandon could just have been miserably misinformed.

And one last detail: if it turns out that Rhaegar Targaryen did, in fact, kidnap and rape Lyanna Stark, all bets are off.

Good point.

[Rockroi]

Brandon could just have been miserably misinformed.

And in there lies my whole point. Who misinformed Brandon and why?

[SFDanny]

And in there lies my whole point. Who misinformed Brandon and why?

If he is misinformed it can be from a host of people who could have witnessed Lyanna leave with Rhaegar. It doesn't have to be Littlefinger. No conspiracy or evil intent need be necessary to explain it. Not that any of that rules out Petyr, but nothing rules him in as a source either, and the likelihood of Brandon even listening to Littlefinger makes it doubtful, imo.

Still, my guess is that Brandon isn't misinformed. He is, rather, acting in a way that he sees as upholding his family's honor, but he is not running to King's Landing to rescue his sister. He sees his sister as part of the problem. Otherwise, why don't we hear of him demanding Lyanna's release?

[Rockroi]

If he is misinformed it can be from a host of people who could have witnessed Lyanna leave with Rhaegar. It doesn't have to be Littlefinger. No conspiracy or evil intent need be necessary to explain it. Not that any of that rules out Petyr, but nothing rules him in as a source either, and the likelihood of Brandon even listening to Littlefinger makes it doubtful, imo.

I agree, but I also think its plausible.

Still, my guess is that Brandon isn't misinformed. He is, rather, acting in a way that he sees as upholding his family's honor, but he is not running to King's Landing to rescue his sister. He sees his sister as part of the problem. Otherwise, why don't we hear of him demanding Lyanna's release?

We're not sure. We have incomplete information; so incomplete that as of today, 4 books in, we are not 100% certain whether or not Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna or that she went willingly. I think its safe to say that as of now all we have is enough "facts" to spawn only conjecture and speculation.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Rockroi,

1Aerion Targaryen, a/k/a Aerion Brightflame and "The Prince Who Thought He Was A Dragon" was the first son of Maekar I, was brother to Egg (Aegon V) and Maester Aemon. Aerion was the principal antagonist in the Hedge Knight short story Martin wrote in Legends. After the events of Hedge Knight, Aerion is sent to ... I don't remember... Braavos?... the Summer Isles?... Cuba? Regardless, he returns to the 7 Kingdoms (at that point with 25% more Dorne) and has a fairly unspectacular daughter. One night, wicked drunk, he claims that if he drinks wildfire he will be transformed into a Dragon. It failed to turn him into a dragon, but did turn him into "a dead guy."

Aerion, obviously, was on the wrong side of that coin flip Jaeyenarys II spoke about.

I thought Aerion was Maekar's second son and Daeron was his first son. Given that Daeron is named for Maekar's father I think that makes more sense.

[3idcrow]

Since Westeros society doesn’t allow a woman to choose her own husband it’s unlikely to hold her responsible for the outcome of her partner’s choice. Iow, if nobody asks woman’s opinion it doesn’t matter if she agrees or disagrees, it’s a man’s decision, not hers. As the result the party responsible is always a man. In the case of Rheagar and Lyanna as far as an average westerosi concerns it was a disgrace and a crime done by Rheagar whether Lyanna went willingly with him or not. I think that’s why Brandon charged Rheagar as he did and if Rheagar was present at KL at that time he would have accepted the challenge.

I find Ned’s lack of hatred to Rheagar a very interesting fact and somewhat contradicting to my previous statement. Maybe Lyanna’s choice mattered to him. It certainly makes a world of a difference to us!

[Rockroi]

I thought Aerion was Maekar's second son and Daeron was his first son. Given that Daeron is named for Maekar's father I think that makes more sense.

Yes, I was wrong. Daeron was Maekar's first son, Aerion the second.

[SFDanny]

I agree, but I also think its plausible.

I'd go this far - with Petyr Baelish almost anything is possible.

We're not sure. We have incomplete information; so incomplete that as of today, 4 books in, we are not 100% certain whether or not Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna or that she went willingly. I think its safe to say that as of now all we have is enough "facts" to spawn only conjecture and speculation.

I'm just hoping that soon we can add a few more facts to the pile once ADwD is published. At least enough to let us continue to conjecture and speculate for another five years or so until the next book arrives. ;)

[ICK]

I'm afraid a lynna-rhaegar relationship doesn't make sense..I just don't see rhaegar dishonoring his wife and family, and I don't see lynna doing the same..Furthermore, both of them probably knew the consequence of their alleged relationship would have on everyone around them. I just don't think lynna will endanger her brothers and family for the sake of love and I don't think rhaegar will sacrifice his family and children as well. If they were in love, they would have came out of hiding to stop all the killing around them...

[Ryn of Winterfell]

I do hope Im not going over old ground here and apologise deeply if I do, but having re-read the series so far yet again, and was again curious at Danys visions @ the House of the Undying ones.

When I was reading about the vision of Rhaegor whom says to a woman (lyanna?) nursing a new born, to name baby "Aegon" and "what better name for a king" also "he is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire" the bizarre thing that popped into my head that Egg was a nickname given to previous Aegon (to protect his identity, and a term of endearment) been a while since i read the Egg and Dunk stories, anyway, what if another Aegon was born that needed his identity protected too. Egg wouldnt be a good choice BUT by breaking name down A-E-GON, which could leave you with Gon, which could be pronounced Jon! could it be a slim chance that Rhaegor had been talking to Lyanna in the vision. I know they were far apart from each other when they each died under diff circumstances, but in the vision they are brought together for Danys knowledge for a later date, could this make it that R+L=J are a possibility.

God im bored :shocked::blink: I stopped smoking a week ago and brain is hurting with thinking of all the mysteries that matter not a jot in my day to day life ;)

[Rockroi]

Ryan and ICK

This is a mash of your two posts in an attempt to answer them both:

ICK

I'm afraid a lynna-rhaegar relationship doesn't make sense. I just don't see rhaegar dishonoring his wife and family, and I don't see lynna doing the same.

Well, the problem here is that we are fairly certain that, at the very least, Rhaegar had Lyanna under guard up until shortly after the war (the Tower of Joy scene with Dayne, Hightower and Whent). So, they WERE together; its just in what capacity that has us all scratching our heads.

There are really two options (there could be more, but all of those lack any evidence): 1) Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off together willingly or 2) Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and then raped her many times. So, we KNOW that at the very least RHAEGAR was willing to be in a relationship with Lyanna, even if it was something so vile as raping her.

The issue many of us have with option 2 is that in the over 2000 pages of text we have to date, nobody- save Robert Baratheon –has ANYTHING bad to say about Rhaegar. This includes Ned Stark- the man who's sister was supposedly raped and murdered by Rhaegar -who never even thinks a stray ill-thought about the man. Nobody calls Rhaegar controlling, undisciplined, greedy, cruel, impulsive, rash, mean-spited, etc.- and at least SOME of those qualities would need to be present in a man who would kidnap and rape a woman.

So, many of us take the stance that maybe- just maybe –Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly. Would it “dishonor” their families. Well… funny you should say that:

Ryan

When I was reading about the vision of Rhaegar whom says to a woman (lyanna?) nursing a new born, to name baby "Aegon" and "what better name for a king" also "he is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire"

Its been pretty much opined that the woman Rhaegar was speaking to in the HotU vision was Elia of Dorne, his wife; the child was their second one, Aegon who was probably slain during the sack at King’s Landing. In that VERY SCENE Rhaegar says to Elia that there needs to be one more child- the dragon has three heads. He seems to be letting Elia know that they need another child.

But in SoS and AFfC, its more than hinted at that Elia of Dorne was not a healthy woman; and that the series of pregnancies had taken their toll on her. What if Elia could not have another child in her frail state?

I bring this up for THIS reason: what if Elia of Dorne 1) accepted the theory that Rhaegar was the PwwP/Azor Azahi reborn (for the purposes of this discussion, lets not parse the two), 2) could not have another child without risking her health and 3) recognized that Rhaegar needed a third child?

In other words, what if she approved of Lyanna? Not so much dishonoring if THAT is true.

(btw- much like my Littlefinger theory- I have 0 evidence to back this up).

The alternate view is this: maybe Rhaegar really did fall in love with this woman at Harrenhal. Stranger things have happened.

Let’s tie up some loose ends:

ICK

Furthermore, both of them probably knew the consequence of their alleged relationship would have on everyone around them. I just don't think lynna will endanger her brothers and family for the sake of love and I don't think rhaegar will sacrifice his family and children as well. If they were in love, they would have came out of hiding to stop all the killing around them...

I think that is all true, but for the fact that we know AT LEAST Rhaegar was putting all that into jeopardy; we KNOW that Rhaegar AT LEAST kidnapped Lyanna, BUT as I already stated, its also probable that Lyanna went willingly.

I think that Lyanna was impulsive and more apt to take chances at such a young age; Ned says as much in GoT. Also, there IS NO WAY that Lyanna and Rhaegar- even if armed with every Maester in Oldtown and Jojen Reed could have predicted the confluence of events that would need to take place to PLUNGE The realm into war. Would Lyanna be able to guess that Brandon would fly oh so far off the handle? Or Rhaegar that his father was THAT fucking crazy? What they probably thought was that there would be repercussions, but that they would be able to deal with them- NOBODY was going to go to war over an affair. Even if it was kinda crazy.

the bizarre thing that popped into my head that Egg was a nickname given to previous Aegon (to protect his identity, and a term of endearment) been a while since i read the Egg and Dunk stories, anyway, what if another Aegon was born that needed his identity protected too. Egg wouldnt be a good choice BUT by breaking name down A-E-GON, which could leave you with Gon, which could be pronounced Jon! could it be a slim chance that Rhaegor had been talking to Lyanna in the vision. I know they were far apart from each other when they each died under diff circumstances, but in the vision they are brought together for Danys knowledge for a later date, could this make it that R+L=J are a possibility.

I think it far more likely that Ned named Jon …Jon after Jon Arryn, to disguise the boy’s identity, and at the same time not dishonor anyone else in his family (ie- naming the child “Rickard”). Though, I like your epistemology on Jon's name. ;)

[ICK]

I definitely agree. A purely love story angle between rhaegar-lyanna just doesn't sound right. There has to be some sort of duty, prophecy and may I say "haste" involved (as everything happened relatively quickly)...There would be love of course, but there is something much more as well....The result of that relationship may be obvious to some, but the cause for it would answer a lot of questions as well...

[Stalker]

I agree, but I also think its plausible.

We're not sure. We have incomplete information; so incomplete that as of today, 4 books in, we are not 100% certain whether or not Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna or that she went willingly. I think its safe to say that as of now all we have is enough "facts" to spawn only conjecture and speculation.

Your standards of evidence seems to be unworkable for any serious discussion. Plausible is so weak as to be applicable to just about anything not directly contradicted. 100% absolutely sure is an impossibility, never to achieved for anything ever. I'd suggest 'beyond a reasonable doubt' in their place, nebulously vague as it may be.

[Rockroi]

Your standards of evidence seems to be unworkable for any serious discussion. Plausible is so weak as to be applicable to just about anything not directly contradicted. 100% absolutely sure is an impossibility, never to achieved for anything ever. I'd suggest 'beyond a reasonable doubt' in their place, nebulously vague as it may be.

Well, look what we have to work with? We have over 2000 pages of text, but only a bare fraction of that is dedicated to Brandon and Lyanna, and even less of that is dedicated to what, exactly, did Brandon hear and why did he act in the manner in which he acted.

Of all that evidence- and now we are down from 2400 pages to maybe 25 sentences -NONE of it contradicts the idea that it could have been Littlefinger who enabled Barndon's fiery, ill-fated ignorance. We have nothing else to go on. My theory is no more unworkable than discovering that Joff tried to kill Bran- the right people are in the right places at the right time, and they all have the ability to act according to their character. Same is true for Joff and Bran- while its far fetched, Joff was in the right place, at the right time, acted according to his character, and all the evidence matches the outcome.

The same could be true for LF and Brandon. I don't know.

I do not think "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" is applicable; in fact, it would retard discussion. If each person here could only advance theories that they could "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" this message board would have, maybe, 6 threads total (and 3 of them would, undoubtedly be "Why does everyone hate Sansa", "Is Renly gay" and "When will the next book come out?"). I am not stating the theory because I can PROVE its true (I have said about 20 times that I cannot); I am advancing the theory to provoke discussion.

As soon as evidence comes to light that hampers my hypothesis, I will discard it. I am open to all options, here, not least of which that I am the supporter of an unworkable theory.

[Stalker]

I do not think "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" is applicable; in fact, it would retard discussion. If each person here could only advance theories that they could "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" this message board would have, maybe, 6 threads total (and 3 of them would, undoubtedly be "Why does everyone hate Sansa", "Is Renly gay" and "When will the next book come out?"). I am not stating the theory because I can PROVE its true (I have said about 20 times that I cannot); I am advancing the theory to provoke discussion.

As soon as evidence comes to light that hampers my hypothesis, I will discard it. I am open to all options, here, not least of which that I am the supporter of an unworkable theory.

Retarding certain discussion wold be the point, yes? Discussions that has no point and only takes p space, at best. Disregarding the hyperbole, I'd estimate the forum has less than 50% theory threads as it is, so that would actually be an increase.

To illustrate: Your theory doesn't pass what I call the Santa Claus test; nothing in the book contradicts Martin deciding that a creature like Santa Claus is real in his fictive world, so it's possible. Of course this sounds silly: there is no reason to believe this true, and not a shred of evidence in it's favour. But... how is that different from you theory?

[Edward the Great]

I definitely agree. A purely love story angle between rhaegar-lyanna just doesn't sound right. There has to be some sort of duty, prophecy and may I say "haste" involved

I prefer the term rationalizing. "Oh, yes, to complete the prophecy and for the dragon to have 3 heads, I must shag this totally hot teenager. I just wouldn't have any inclination to do that if it weren't a solemn duty."

And I don't think Rhaegar had Lyanna under guard. Aerys was holding her hostage.

[3idcrow]

I prefer the term rationalizing. "Oh, yes, to complete the prophecy and for the dragon to have 3 heads, I must shag this totally hot teenager. I just wouldn't have any inclination to do that if it weren't a solemn duty."

Exactly... People have a tendency of making excuses when they really-really want to do something potentially dangerous and morally quastionnable. I'd guess Rheagar fell in love with Lyanna and used a prophesy in which he believed firmly as an excuse to take her.

As far as Lyanna's feelings go... the moment we stop believing that a teenage girl is capable of falling in love blindly against all rules and no matter what is the price we have to discard 2/3 of world's literature. There goes Romeo and Juliette, Tristan and Isolde, Twilight series... And the prince Rheagar as far as we can guess from Cersei POV was a prime candidate for such a love, an ultimate Brad Pitt of Westeros, every girl's secret dream.

[raisin]

Rockroi,

While I certainly wouldn't put something like that past Littlefinger, and the timeline certainly seems to fit, I just don't think it's necessary. If Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna, and we've got the evidence to prove that, then Brandon doesn't need someone to tell him any horror stories to get him to run off to KL. He'd either assume that Lyanna abandoned her family and responsibilities and previous promises and honor in favor of a handsome prince, or Rhaegar is a bastard who forced her. The most LF could really have done here is making sure Brandon found out about it when he did (en route to his wedding), and that's relatively pointless. He had no chances with Cat at that point, and it probably would have served him better to wait until she was widowed (which wouldn't have been long) and try again later.

Of course, LF is LF, and I don't presume to know that much about his ends, but I can't come up with an explanation for convincing Brandon to run off to a fairly inevitable death before the alliance was made between Tully and Stark, knowing as he must that Brandon had younger brothers who could marry Cat in his stead.

I do wonder what he did with himself after Riverrun, and when exactly he started working on his grand master plan, but I don't think he's needed to explain Brandon's death.

[Rockroi]

To illustrate: Your theory doesn't pass what I call the Santa Claus test; nothing in the book contradicts Martin deciding that a creature like Santa Claus is real in his fictive world, so it's possible. Of course this sounds silly: there is no reason to believe this true, and not a shred of evidence in it's favour. But... how is that different from you theory?

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but the Santa Claus theory would just be terrible story-telling. My theory is NOT just a "there is no evidence that contradicts it", but also that I do have a few threads of evidence (ie- the time Littlefinger leaves Riverrun coincides almost perfectly with the time of Brandon's arrival in KL; the fact that the Fingers are directly in the path of any route Brtandon would take to Riverrun- esp. from Harrenhal -and therefore its perfectly plausible that LF going from Riverrun to the Fingers would have to cross paths with Brandon going from either Harrenhal or Winterfell to Riverrun; the fact that this type of action is not past somebody like Littlefinger; the fact that FIFTEEN YEARS LATER Littlefinger is STILL pining for Cat).

But I am not advocating that this theory is absolute nor is definitely true. My theory is just that: a theory, and should be rigorously tested as information becomes available. This should be true amongst any theory on these boards. I am not asking you to prove that its not true; I am merely suggesting that it could be true.

While I certainly wouldn't put something like that past Littlefinger, and the timeline certainly seems to fit, I just don't think it's necessary.

Very true; the truth need not be so complex, but that is not to say it isn't complex.

The most LF could really have done here is making sure Brandon found out about it when he did (en route to his wedding), and that's relatively pointless. He had no chances with Cat at that point, and it probably would have served him better to wait until she was widowed (which wouldn't have been long) and try again later.

The issue I have with this logic is that it does not take into consideration LF's character; as he states to Sansa in SoS, he likes the inclusion of chaos against those with power; he desires upheaval. Well, Brandon not only wronged him, but took away his whole life; Brandon kept him from Cat, kept him from Riverrun, from a cushier life, etc. And one day... isn't it posisble that he stumbled into a revenge plot?

Of course, LF is LF, and I don't presume to know that much about his ends, but I can't come up with an explanation for convincing Brandon to run off to a fairly inevitable death before the alliance was made between Tully and Stark, knowing as he must that Brandon had younger brothers who could marry Cat in his stead.

And yet, that's exactly what Brandon did- whether he had LF's assistance or not.

[raisin]

I guess I just don't think that Littlefinger, of all people, would be so idiotic to imagine that Brandon Stark, and not Hoster Tully or LF's own humble origins, would be the one that "wronged him", "took away his whole life", "kept him from Cat, kept him from Riverrun, from a cushier life, etc." That explanation, to me, does not take into account Littlefinger's character and intellectual abilities. At all.

I would imagine him as the type to MUCH more enjoy a scenario where Brandon Stark marries Cat, and Petyr can just savor the knowledge that he got to bed Cat first. His bragging about that last part to everyone in KL would be evidence enough of that. Deliberately sending off Brandon Stark like that would be WAY too quick, dirty, and direct when compared to any other Littlefinger plots we've encountered.

A much more Littlefinger-esque plot? Going to Robert with the same information. What better way to start "chaos" and "upheaval" than going to a notoriously rash lord like Robert, who actually has the ability to start a war (as he was actually the Lord of his house by then, I believe) and the connections to the Starks (and from there to the Tullys), effectively pulling the whole kingdom into conflict? I don't think he did this, either, but it would be much more his style to give himself a little distance between the parties he interacts with and the ones he actually wants to affect.

Much more likely course of action for post-Riverrun Littlefinger? Working on improving and raising himself so he can one day get what he feels he deserves. He's shown himself to be a very patient man, and I believe that's a lesson he learned from the duel, particularly as his loss and recovery time led to bedding the Tully girl/s, and Brandon's victory earned him nothing. In fact, I see no reason for him to have any hard feelings against Brandon at all after that, especially if that's when LF thinks he slept with Cat.

Your arguments for the theory seem to mainly be the timeline and some weird desire to put Littlefinger behind it all. The more you write about his possible motives, the less it sounds like Littlefinger to me at all.