The Next World of Warcraft Thread

[Poobah]

It's situational awareness.

It's seems there's like 3 general levels of players (especially DPS).

1) The Dummies: The DKs in Spell Power gear. The guy in Full Epics doing 900 DPS. They have no idea what they are doing.

2) The Monkeys: They read a guide, they push the buttons, Recount says they're a good boy. 'But if something comes up that isn't in the guide (ie - you might have to move or interrupt a spell or something) they are lost. They are monkeys following a script. They get by because most of the game isn't terribly punishing on the clueless who can pump out big DPS numbers.

3) The Competent: The people who are actually paying attention.

The problem is that more and more stuff in this game is designed with the Monkeys in mind, with every single thing exactly timed, exactly choreographed etc. back in the day we used to have some truely chaotic raids that relied on players being in the third category.

[PhelanArcetus]

But those monkeys aren't even monkeys trained for the specific fights. They're monkeys trained for, well, patchwerk. Is it not a patchwerk fight? They're hosed.

I also have a few with situational awareness but... either they lack the good rotation, or they're the type to get flustered easily. "I see X going wrong, what do I do?"

Much as with cleansing, I tend to operate on "well, does this or does this not matter?" for interrupts. A lot of stuff doesn't make that threshold, though.

Between internet problems on some guildies I was trying to run with, and some relationship drama my flatmate was going through, H-DTK took an hour and a second run never happened. Pretty miffed about that, but it falls behind the details of that drama, which of course do not belong here. Time Warner in S. Carolina had better be working properly again tonight, though.

Unfortunately, tonight will probably be annoying as it's the night we poke at Yogg for a while. And I suspect most of the guild still has no clue what happens (I've read some, and I'm watching a video later today, but I still expect to be lost.) We'll give it probably no more than half our time, then take a break from it and head to Ony & Vault to cool off.

[Weak With The Dawn]

I also have a few with situational awareness but...

Reminds me of an enhancement shaman in my guild. He's got the awareness, and some skill, but he lacks the damage out put.

A few patches back they made a change to the way things proc, meaning that slow off hand weapons were the best for Enshamans. Unfortunately he never got the memo, so not only is he gimping his own DPS and Damage, but he's rolling on MY off hand upgrades...and winning.

Which sucks, because not only do I lose out on upgrades, but he's a skilled player who could be doing substantially better if he wasn't double windfury-ing two quick weapons.

[Shryke]

Can't you just ... tell him?

[Weak With The Dawn]

Can't you just ... tell him?

Insta response!

Yes I can, and have. I have then been told that I'm just "another f-ing rogue trying to save loot for yourself".

I have even linked him multiple theory crafting websites replete with test results and explanations.

"I've been playing Shaman for X amount of years, i don't need to be told what to do."

Some people forget that patches change class functionality.

[Zadok]

This.

Damage and DPS are like peanut butter and jelly ( or fluff and nutella), you can't have one without the other.

DPS shows Potential, Damage Done shows Skill.

If you're top of the DPS but lowest on Damage done, it means you were standing in shit. If you're top damage and lowest DPS, you should probably stop pugging because everyone else is standing in shit :rofl:

Obviously this is only relative for stationary fights without cast interrupts. But recount counts a number of other things as well. I.e. interrupts, friendly fire, dispels, over all healing and HPS.

So if I'm sitting on the side interrupting something, just auto-attacking (easy mode Iron Council) at least you can see how many times I prevented a chain lightening.

Recount really shows an ability to work in a group, that's why it's good to have.

Personally though, WWS (WoW Web Stats) is better then recount but the person running it can't DC or the whole record is screwed.

DPS is completely worthless in evaluating someones performance in the context of the actual run. Damage done is all that matters. If you're well geared and know what you're doing both your damage and DPS will be high. If you're well geared and an idiot your DPS may be high but your damage done is in the toilet. My guild had a couple fights last night where we wiped due to poor/dead DPS and after the fight the leader asked for it to be pasted. So the guy only posts DPS, while in fact the #1 damage dealt was over 1 million points higher than #2. The only reason to look at DPS at all is for e-peen bragging rights.

[RaceBannon42]

Reminds me of an enhancement shaman in my guild. He's got the awareness, and some skill, but he lacks the damage out put.

A few patches back they made a change to the way things proc, meaning that slow off hand weapons were the best for Enshamans. Unfortunately he never got the memo, so not only is he gimping his own DPS and Damage, but he's rolling on MY off hand upgrades...and winning.

Which sucks, because not only do I lose out on upgrades, but he's a skilled player who could be doing substantially better if he wasn't double windfury-ing two quick weapons.

:ack:

just :ack:

Never ever has a fast MH been good. From 3.0 until 3.1 a fast offhand was desired. But now a slow OH is better. not just better incredibly better. so much so that a crappy green is better than a 258 dagger. each .1 weapon speed is worth about 70ap so for a 1.3 speed dagger to be better than a 2.6 speed weapon it would have to be 167 dps better. So essiantal hes going to do the same dps using the Terrokar Axe than the Stygian Bladebreaker.

WF was never good with a fast weapon. Fast weapons were good with Flame tongue because the spellpower coeffcient was not scaling to speed. Direct him to EJ.

He makes me want to cry.

[Kalbear]

The only reason to look at DPS at all is for e-peen bragging rights.

Not true at all.

Damage done isn't always that great because it can be overinflated on trash/aoe attacks while not helping a lot with single targets. For example, does damage done really matter that much on something like XT?

Or is how much DPS you're capable of doing matter more?

I do agree that there are plenty of times when DPS doesn't tell the whole story, but to say that it's only relevant when talking epeenery is really ignorant. As Race said, it's a tool. Use it correctly and it's useful. Use it incorrectly and it's poor.

[RaceBannon42]

Insta response!

Yes I can, and have. I have then been told that I'm just "another f-ing rogue trying to save loot for yourself".

I have even linked him multiple theory crafting websites replete with test results and explanations.

"I've been playing Shaman for X amount of years, i don't need to be told what to do."

Some people forget that patches change class functionality.

I've been playing a shaman for almost 3 years. I still need to be told what to do. Keeping on top of current theorycrafting is the only way I stay competitive. I dont have lightning reflexes, or super hand eye coordination, like some 16 year old hopped up on red bulls. I optomize my gear and my rotation, and to do so you need to stay on top of all the changes.

[Nathanael]

Elitist Jerks or even the main WOW website just needs to a have a weapons primer in general. It's the most shared gear slot, and so many people are mistaken about who needs what, how much of an upgrade something is, etc.

Before I get more into that - my server is absolutely amazing for PUGs. I tanked TOGC10 for the first time last week, starting Saturday night, and we actually managed to clear it on Monday. Some of the differences are interesting. Beasts just wail much harder, although I will say Icehowl's lack of a speed boost on the charge makes a runspeed enchant/talent mandatory IMO for heroic. Having to kill the portals/volcanoes is a nice touch for Jaraxxus. Champs is basically just like it was prenerf on normal and I have to do the same Chains of Ice/taunt rotation to keep a melee under control since diminishing returns apply on taunt. Twin Val'kyr are about the same except you absolutely must stop Twin Pact.

But Anub. Oh Anub. Vast, vast difference in difficulty. We got to him with 45/46 attempts remaining (after starting with 48 because one person in the PUG was saved so we decided to use his save rather than find someone else). Cleared him with 24 left (1 away from the skill achieve and the bonus weapon loot!). But oh my god was it satisfying when we finally got him down - adds going crazy people dying, just try to burn through that last little bit . . .

Now back to the main point - heroic Fordragon Blades dropped. I won the roll, but a dps DK starts complaining that it's a dps weapon, and that I would prefer strength for parry and some expertise. Now, barring the fact that, hey, I obviously understand DK tanking and probably know what weapons are good for my class, and my current weapon was normal Reckoning (also agility based), it still took a while before the discussion calmed down and I got the weapon. I was rather worried I would lose it because people didn't know what they are talking about.

As we were closing out, this DK (who only joined us for Anub that night, BTW) says something about it being a good run but weird looting, and that there are better tanking weapons in Naxx.

For starters, that statement is just idiotic. But even more to the point, if we were going to try to differentiate between DK tanking and two-hander dpser weapons, FB are clearly more tanking oriented. DPSers should care more about strength than I do - threat really isn't that big of a problem to me while DPS is all they do. Even including the fact that I get parry rating from Strength, Agi still provides much more avoidance for me point for point than Strength. Further, FB have a ton of stamina on them. Looking at the other possible weapon upgrades, there are only 5 weapons I would take as an upgrade now - the TOGC10 tribute ax, and the 4 TOGC25 two-handers. And the only reason the TOGC10 ax is an upgrade is because hit is hard to come by right now for me, and it would let me swap some 226 pieces for 245. At this point I would probably pass it to DPS because they would get more out of the 3.6 speed than I would.

For DPS, FB ranks dead last out of all the TOGC10, TOC25, and TOGC25 weapons (and the Ony25 sword).

There shouldn't have even been discussion, much less a raid vote as to whether I should get the weapon, especially since I won the roll.

The kicker? When I was going over recount later, I noticed the DPS DK's 3 highest damaging ability was Frost Strike. That's right. He was a dual-wielder, and should have rolled offspec on the FB anyway.

And yeah, I've seen more than my share of rogues not being automatically given fast speed axes and them being handed to enhance shammies too. I don't even have a dog in those fights, but I still end up PSTing the shaman, trying to get them to give it to a rogue. I just feel bad for the rogues. But no one ever listens.

[Weak With The Dawn]

DPS is completely worthless in evaluating someones performance in the context of the actual run. Damage done is all that matters. If you're well geared and know what you're doing both your damage and DPS will be high. If you're well geared and an idiot your DPS may be high but your damage done is in the toilet. My guild had a couple fights last night where we wiped due to poor/dead DPS and after the fight the leader asked for it to be pasted. So the guy only posts DPS, while in fact the #1 damage dealt was over 1 million points higher than #2. The only reason to look at DPS at all is for e-peen bragging rights.

Sorry, but this is not true, as Kal already said, damage done can be just as false as DPS. To really asses a raid members potential you need to use them together.

What about fights where melee has to sit an wait during fights? Or fights where casters are silenced for extended periods? Their damage done will be significantly less then their counterparts but they're DPS will show that they were paying attention and maintained their rotation during the fleeting moments when they could attack.

If I wanted to top damage meters I could probably AR+blade furry+ fan of knives every trash pull and strictly auto attack bosses and still come out 3rd, but my DPS would be crap.

DPS is not better then Damage

Damage is not better than DPS

DPS + Damage = good player.

The only time that Damage and DPS should be equal are during routine tank and spank fights.

[Kalbear]

and I have to do the same Chains of Ice/taunt rotation to keep a melee under control since diminishing returns apply on taunt.

Err, the FC on hard mode are immune to taunt, period.