Why do people feel sorry for Theon Greyjoy?

[Dreadwolf]

Explain to me how is it different from when Bran and Rickon used Summer and Shaggydog to kill the Ironborn guards when they escaped from Winterfell. Did it hurt less? Was it a less horrifying way to die?

And you have to admit... it is kinda fitting of Starks to use wolves to execute prisoners. I'm willing to bet that they probably have done it in the past ages.

In reply of your first part they call it 'in self-defence' (you do it or you die.)

As regards the second part It is beyond of what we know about the First man way which Ned, and Robb followed strictly. I guess you are confusing them with Targs and the Dragons.

And again:

it belongs to another thread perhaps regarding the moral grounds of death sentense over the ages and now....

[Rinso]

I assume I might have been not clear enough again. My impression was (and still is) that you are joking with us.

I meant as latitudinarian as to absolve even the Satan of his sins. (More or less similar as playing role in theatre).

So once again I beg for your pardon if all these clumsy stuff from me offense you in a way or two...

Ummm... no, I don't think that I'm joking. I enjoy to communicate in friendly and cheeky manner, but I really don't think that the attitude towards Theon is very fair, considering, well... many things, such as the overall brutality of the whole setting of ASoIaF and the sheer number of other characters who have commited just as bad or much worse acts (and get away with it). I'd like to note, again, that I don't actually like him or feel sorry for him, but I just think that the reasons for the shitload of hatred he gets from the fans are, mostly, not good enough. Again, don't mind the hatred towards the character, just the reasons for it.

And don't worry, I'm not offended and never was. I was absent from the board for a while and that discussion felt nice for a comeback :)

I prefer to leave Arya and my love to her for some other threat. If we are going to compare Theon with all the characters in the book (especially in cases like this when your mentioning Arya and the side question why she was spared at some other point runs significantly out of topic)

I didn't compare Arya with Theon, I compared her with Mycah (though do you really love that brat? *sigh* our tastes are incompatible, I see that now. But don't worry, I'm often a minority when it comes to my love for the characters in the series) to show that he probably wasn't considered like such serious offendant like the word "combatant" suggested. If he was, then Arya, who actually whipped Joffrey's ass and whose wolf bit him, wouldn't have gotten away so easily. But nevermind, that really isn't important.

No we actually don’t know what his orders had been. We (me and you) are speculating about that. But actually it really does not matter as you say. Sandor’s moral choices has nothing to with Theon’s. The problem still remains Micah was declared as enemy by the prince and Queen. So even if he was not described in the face of Sandor as one who endangered the life of the heir to the crown it is not of the business of the sworn sword to question the sovereign power. I do not justify Sandor here. Neither do I forgive him. And Yes his (Sandor) deed is not morally justified, but Theon at his time had not had even that justification which could help him a bit in a modern (non moral) court.

So your comparison here did not work for me. It may only work if we accept that Theon was acting in accordance with the order’s that he received from higher authority – Theon Almighty. Which would be crazy no doubt. (Yes he IMO is a self-obsessed maniac)

Of course we know what Sandor's order were. We saw the result from them, so it's not hard to deduce what they were. My point was that I doubt that anyone would have bothered to incite him to kill Mycah by explaining what a horrible offendant he was. It was probably more like "That kid participated in an attack on Joff. Go kill him.".

And the situation wasn't so different from Theon's. Think about it. Sandor recieves an order (from the Queen and/or the Prince Heir of the Iron Throne) to kill a kid. And it's all about the options and choises available. He has two options. Option 1 - to tell them to go bugger themselves and, probably, die for treason and insubordination. Option 2 - to kill the kid. We know what he chose.

And what options Theon had? Option 1 - to not kill any kids, give up on the hunt for Bran and Rickon and go back to Winterfell, where he had very few soldiers and no help from the other Ironborn in the North, was in danger of riot from the folk there and was about to face the (much more numerous) hosts of the northern lords. In short, he had the option to look like a fool in the most inopportune time possible. Option 2 was to kill two kids and look cruel. Also note, that Theon himself didn't come up with the idea. It was Ramsay Bolton who suggested it in a moment when Theon was very vulnerable and scared, feeling trapped like a rat.

She obviously do not approved his actions (I can only speculate what was in her head by that time) But even if I accept she considered that ‘only’ stupid. – That would just prove that even the stone-clod Ironmen (and women) would not act like Theon did.

Yes, she didn't approve, but not so much because she saw it as an evil and horrible crime, but because it was very stupid and, in her eyes, a cowardly act.

Well my objection here is we are speaking about the piece of art – fiction. We must be impartial.

Yup. And most of the Theon haters are not. IMO, of course.

[Rinso]

As regards the second part It is beyond of what we know about the First man way which Ned, and Robb followed strictly. I guess you are confusing them with Targs and the Dragons.

It is beyond the facts we know, but, to me, it feels fitting. Do you suppose that the line of the Starks, which goes back by millennia was composed only by Nedds and Robbs? I find that Ned himself was a bit of softie and we are said many times how the ancient Starks of old were very hard men. We know for at least one Stark villain from the ancient history of Westeros and he was big time baddie. Is it really so hard to imagine that, perhaps, some couple of thousands of years ago, some evil or crazy Stark might have come up with the idea? But it really is an awful threadjack, so I'll keep my beak shut.

[Dreadwolf]

It was my pleasure to participate.

- As regards the tastes difference – Thank Goodness It keeps all us happy. Imagine the it was on the contrary – there would have had no better halves remaining...

In connection with your post # 82 other stuff - I have many objections with respect to your argumentation. (more or less I already pointed them out on other occasions. My general protest is that you intentionally or not put aside all points which are ‘inconvenient’ for the cause(s) you are standing for and with a bit of distortion to my original statement(s) we finally got quite another story. Anyway I guess from time to time we are all doing that. Count my self in too. (if you need more details I can provide. In a moment You even made a speculation that was actually bringing grist to my mill. Your end is correct and skilful one. You actually use my inexact word selection. I should have used ‘safeguarded’ instead of ‘impartial’. I did believe the lion example was self explanatory. You have used my mistake competently and with a dash - its O.K.)

All that is not so important BTW and I can propose you following settlement:

Like I said double standards are one of the most humanly features and:

- No one needs to be ashamed on his double standards application. There should be some modesty in so doing of course - Especially when the most liberal politicians are doing so (yes they constantly did that even nowadays which at many occasions I think is disgustingly and wrong/ evil. But it’s entirely another film.) I stand for double standards as a synonym of different tastes and not only. It has also something to do with the great variety of moral choose we have and individual preferences regarding the values in the life and Dead. I wrote somewhere in these boards on a different occasion that for example in a lose-lose situation (I don’t know how could I call in English that what is the exact opposite of the win-win situation) there could be more that one ‘morally right’ and ‘beautiful’ choices. The best example I could provide may be found: there

- To make the long story short I would also suggest that:

People are stupid (or that’s the teaching of another more or less successful and no doubt famous nowadays fantasy author.)

We do believe in what we want to. (Yes - not too much logic there…)

In so far a magician of the enormous power (aka GRRM) made the great majority of readers to believe that there is hope for (‘the sinners’) Jaime’s and Sandor’s future redemption (be it even slight), while in the same time the identical signs regarding Theon are more or less missing. I might be fooled or not but this could be the reason for my sympathy in the first instance and antipathy in the second. And that is my logical explanation.

- And as a bottom line – a human will never fall in love if not for his double standards.

(Well someone could argue that one can be still in love with two/ or more persons but I would suggest that we let the mathematics there at peace…)

So that is my offer. Do you buy the stuff?

[Prince Bran]

Theon's major flaw is that, being a perpetual outsider, he is obsessed with what other people think of him. In Theon's case it would be "The things I do so that people will accept me."

Couldn't agree more, this is exactly how I read Theon as well. But it's interesting...he vacillates between this obsession of how others perceive him, and then a sudden disregard for the opinion of his former confidantes when he betrays Robb. I definitely think Theon's need to be accepted, and to have appropriate fellowship is important, but his arrogance and over-inflated ego leave him badly shipwrecked. It would be nice if Theon is able to regain himself, maybe shed a little arrogance, and become self-actualized in the process (I realize that being flayed, tortured, and pressed to servitude is a strange path to self-actualization, but I can't help but think that recovering from it, and looking back at his past and assessing things, will inform his character and decision-making for the better).

[Rinso]

Dreadwolf... okay... First, I don't think that you (ever) understood what I meant by "double standart". Don't be offended, I don't mean it as an insult. Let me explain. By "double standart" I meant "a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to another". In other, not-so-dictionary, words, I meant to use it to say that fans forgive (or ignore) the bad actions of some characters, but hate other characters for actions that are very similar and just as bad. In both cases there are mitigating circumstances, but some characters always get the short end of the stick. Is it clear now?

If it's not, I'll try to repeat my points. Hey, like we say in my country, repetition is the mother of knowledge (and the father of dullness) :wideeyed:

As for the other thing, you kinda confuse me. You make it sound like I twist your arguments on purpose. In fact, I'm not aware of doing such a thing. If I do it, it's on some subconscious level :stunned:

But let say that I buy it and call it a deuce, what do you say?

[xythil]

This was a great topic lol =0 I actually have come to pity Theon a little more after reading this.

However I will take a stab at the Theon vs Sandor/Jaime/Tyrion. The big difference here is loyalty. Sandor was loyal to his wallet(AKA Jofferys protector). He took pleasure in his cruelty and is not a great person but in the end he wasn't being cruel just to be cruel. Heck he even risked a lot to give Sansa the closest thing she had to a friend in Kings Landing. He had redeamable qualities. The same can be said for both Jamie and Tyrion. Jaime crippled Bran to protect his sister. Evil? Yes. Unforgivable? Most certainly had it been my child. But understandable? Very much so. Tyrion as well. In fact I am surprised Tyrion is brought up at all. He is a lannister , but an outcast. He may ehave ruled as hand with an iron fist but he had to. If he had been seen to be weak they would have torn him apart. But one thing all these people had was loyalty.

Theon? Theon betrayed the starks. He betrayed Rob. He betrayed the North. Ned treated him as a son, with respect, and gave him great responsibilities. Rob went even further. To Rob Theon was almost his right hand man. I can understand Theon also feels he owes allegiance to his father and the Iron Men... but after his visit, where he learned of his fathers plans... he just goes along with it. After his father shows him no love, or respect, he takes it and betrays the North were his true family? That is why I dislike Theon and find sympathy hard. HE knew his father was bad, he knew attacking the North was wrong, and he not only did it but did it gladly and expected them to appreciate his conquest.

[Rinso]

Theon? Theon betrayed the starks. He betrayed Rob. He betrayed the North. Ned treated him as a son, with respect, and gave him great responsibilities. Rob went even further. To Rob Theon was almost his right hand man. I can understand Theon also feels he owes allegiance to his father and the Iron Men... but after his visit, where he learned of his fathers plans... he just goes along with it. After his father shows him no love, or respect, he takes it and betrays the North were his true family? That is why I dislike Theon and find sympathy hard. HE knew his father was bad, he knew attacking the North was wrong, and he not only did it but did it gladly and expected them to appreciate his conquest.

Oooookay, I'm going to include you in the great topic :ninja:

Theon betrayed the North, you say? This the same North that participated in the war against his own homeland? Ned treated him like a son? Eeegh... perhaps that is a bit of a stretch. He didn't treat him like dirt, that much is true. But Theon was there not because Ned Stark wanted to raise him as a son, he was there because he was needed as a prisoner to ensure the Greyjoys' obedience. Sure, Theon wasn't a prisoner in a cell and chains, but he wasn't there because of some kind reason.

Now, I do agree that he didn't recieve much respect and kindness in the Iron Islands. He was a stranger to his own family there. But whose fault is that? Perhaps it was Balon's, who put his family into this mess. Perhaps it was Ned's, who took Theon away from his home. But it certainly isn't Theon's.

He went away with the plan to attack the North? What else he could have done? Even if Robb didn't sent him there, the Greyjoys would still have attacked the North. Balon regarded Asha as his heir (so he didn't care if Theon lived or died) and thought that Robb was easier prey than Tywin (and I think that he was right). So what could have Theon done?

Btw, his plan for the capturing of Winterfell was good and if he had the wits the gods gave to a goose, he would have put the castle to the torch, took Bran and Rickon as hostages and retreat to the Iron Islands. I bet that this would have won him some recognition and respect. But he had to throw it all away.

[xythil]

To be fair, and correct me if I am wrong, Robert took Theon and gave him to Ned Stark.

And had Theon done what you said.. I would be even more upset. I just finished A Game OF Thrones re-read recently and I go the distinct feeling Theon was treated as well as ANY of Robs lord banner men and included in all war counsels with a voice and yet he brought NOTHING to the table but his own sword. That is a serious level of respect. He had earned a place with the North.

[Rinso]

Okay, fine, you can blame Robert too. It really doesn't matter.

Theon was treated well, like I said, this was never the question. Also, it isn't the point, because him being treated well is a bonus. The point of him being there was to ensure Balon's obedience. How well do you think he would have been treated if Balon rose in rebellion again?

[xythil]

Okay, fine, you can blame Robert too. It really doesn't matter.

Theon was treated well, like I said, this was never the question. Also, it isn't the point, because him being treated well is a bonus. The point of him being there was to ensure Balon's obedience. How well do you think he would have been treated if Balon rose in rebellion again?

If the first thing that happened in a game of thrones was the iron born attacked the north... I highly doubt Ned would have harmed or hurt Theon. I think he would have paid him closer attention but that is about it. Theon was taken when he was 8 or so. He knew the Starks far longer. I mean I see your point man, and maybe I am just biased because I have this inflated vision of the Starks just being great people but I really find Theons betrayal cuts deep.

[Rinso]

But why the Starks took him in the first place? Why he had to be taken away from his home and brought in another family? The point was to make the Greyjoys think twice before they decided to rebel again, because otherwise Theon might have been hurt or killed. The question is not wether Ned would have actually hurt Theon. It's all a game of bluffing and Theon was just a pawn in it, nothing more.

[xythil]

But why the Starks took him in the first place? Why he had to be taken away from his home and brought in another family? The point was to make the Greyjoys think twice before they decided to rebel again, because otherwise Theon might have been hurt or killed. The question is not wether Ned would have actually hurt Theon. It's all a game of bluffing and Theon was just a pawn in it, nothing more.

Yes but he got a much better life at Winterfell then he could have ever hoped to have on the Isles. And after going home he should have realized this.

[Rinso]

Umm... no, I don't think so. He had a good life in Winterfell and the North up until ACOK, I agree. But since his father would have attacked the North either way, things weren't going to be good forever. Perhaps even if Robb himself didn't wan't to use Theon as a hostage and leverage in such situation, his lords bannermen would have been on a different opinion. Especially those, whose castles and families would have been attacked by the Ironborn. Look what happened in a similar situation with Rickard Karstark and the Lannister prisoners.

As for his worse life in the Iron Islands, I also don't think so. His family treated him like shit, because he was away most of his life and he was basically a stranger. It would have been very different if he never left the Islands.

[kelloggirl]

It took me about 3 re-reads of the books for me to feel slightly sorry for him, but I still just plain don't like him. Personally, I don't go through an objective and qualitative analysis of who's done worse things relative to who when I read the books to decide who I like and don't like. It's an emotional reaction. Plain and simple, I think he's a jerk and a dickwad and treats women like shit, and I've seen no redeeming qualities in him to overcome my dislike.

Yet.

It could happen. I'm all for redemption arcs.

[Faber]

It took me about 3 re-reads of the books for me to feel slightly sorry for him, but I still just plain don't like him. Personally, I don't go through an objective and qualitative analysis of who's done worse things relative to who when I read the books to decide who I like and don't like. It's an emotional reaction. Plain and simple, I think he's a jerk and a dickwad and treats women like shit, and I've seen no redeeming qualities in him to overcome my dislike.

Yet.

It could happen. I'm all for redemption arcs.

Pretty much everyone does in those books.

[Watcher]

For everyone whose best defense of Theon is that other characters have done worse but or like more, I'd like to repeat my claim that's a red herring. If your main argument is that X has done worse, therefore I have to also like Y, you already lost the discussion and I really have nothing more to say to you because that entire line of reasoning is irrelevant.

Oooookay, I'm going to include you in the great topic :ninja:

Theon betrayed the North, you say? This the same North that participated in the war against his own homeland? Ned treated him like a son? Eeegh... perhaps that is a bit of a stretch. He didn't treat him like dirt, that much is true. But Theon was there not because Ned Stark wanted to raise him as a son, he was there because he was needed as a prisoner to ensure the Greyjoys' obedience. Sure, Theon wasn't a prisoner in a cell and chains, but he wasn't there because of some kind reason.

That was standard procedure, Robert or Ned did anything out of the norm. Theon had several choices when he was taken hostage, he could spend the rest of his life pouting about it. Or he could've taken advantage of the opportunities he had and realize he was still better off then 99.9999% of people living in Westoros. He choice to bury his head and not befriend Jon or Rob or anyone better. Taking hostages was normal, everyone accepted it and if Theon wasn't so narcissistic he could've made many deep and lasting friendships. But he failed in that too because like almost all of the Greyjoy's he was more interested in ancient glories then today's realities.

Now, I do agree that he didn't recieve much respect and kindness in the Iron Islands. He was a stranger to his own family there. But whose fault is that? Perhaps it was Balon's, who put his family into this mess. Perhaps it was Ned's, who took Theon away from his home. But it certainly isn't Theon's.

It was most definitely Balon's how should've realize his insignificant islands couldn't withstand the entire force of the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.

He went away with the plan to attack the North? What else he could have done? Even if Robb didn't sent him there, the Greyjoys would still have attacked the North. Balon regarded Asha as his heir (so he didn't care if Theon lived or died) and thought that Robb was easier prey than Tywin (and I think that he was right). So what could have Theon done?

He could've stood up to his father and explained exactly why his father was the stupidest man in Westoros. Attacking the weakest of the kings only ensured that the North and the Greyjoy's would lose the war. His father was so bound up in ancient glories he couldn't see that anything but a temporary alliance with the North and the Riverlands was the only true path to victory. A future leader should've given Balon better console told him to think in the long term and pull his head out of his ass. Robb's plan was the best for both kingdoms. An attack on Lannisport would've force the Lannisters to put resources to their homeland when it was needed in the south. An attack on the North destroyed Robb's authority and give the Lannister's complete victory. It's a poor leader that sends his troops to their certain deaths for no better reason then wounded pride.

Failing that he could've worn Rob what was going on. Because if Theon thought of more then himself, which he doesn't, he would've realized the entire attack was a farce. If he had bothered to have gotten to know Robb and the Starks better he would've know he would've been well rewarded for his switching sides and would've gotten the lordship he craved.

Btw, his plan for the capturing of Winterfell was good and if he had the wits the gods gave to a goose, he would have put the castle to the torch, took Bran and Rickon as hostages and retreat to the Iron Islands. I bet that this would have won him some recognition and respect. But he had to throw it all away.

Because he was too wrapped up in the myths he created for himself to listen to anyone else. Asha all buy got on her hands and knees to take that wise course, but he was to petty and jealous to see past his own nose.

[Dreadwolf]

Dreadwolf... okay... First, I don't think that you (ever) understood what I meant by "double standart". Don't be offended, I don't mean it as an insult. Let me explain. By "double standart" I meant "a set of principles that allows greater freedom to one person or group than to another". In other, not-so-dictionary, words, I meant to use it to say that fans forgive (or ignore) the bad actions of some characters, but hate other characters for actions that are very similar and just as bad. In both cases there are mitigating circumstances, but some characters always get the short end of the stick. Is it clear now?

If it's not, I'll try to repeat my points. Hey, like we say in my country, repetition is the mother of knowledge (and the father of dullness) :wideeyed:

As for the other thing, you kinda confuse me. You make it sound like I twist your arguments on purpose. In fact, I'm not aware of doing such a thing. If I do it, it's on some subconscious level :stunned:

But let say that I buy it and call it a deuce, what do you say?

I am always ready to accept peaceful solutions. Most important thing was I really enjoy our debate. Tks.

One more think -

BTW Your definition for double standards is very close to my definition for a lover (father/mother) who is generally always inclined to forgive some 'small' sins to his/her half (child).

(It of course may work on the reverse. Sometime people hate to see their own weak points in other peolpe and especially in those who really matters to them. The real fun with people is that there are always principles working both ways. Which in its turn is a double standard too :) - broadly said.)

[The Marquis de Leech]

For everyone whose best defense of Theon is that other characters have done worse but or like more, I'd like to repeat my claim that's a red herring. If your main argument is that X has done worse, therefore I have to also like Y, you already lost the discussion and I really have nothing more to say to you because that entire line of reasoning is irrelevant.

My preferred view is that Theon's most morally reprehensible action (the killing of the Miller's kids) was subject to mitigating circumstances (namely desperation, remorse, and an evil counsellor). I do not, however, consider it irrelevant to bring up Tyrion having a man turned into stew. Essentially, Tyrion's most morally repugnant action* does, if you excuse the pun, arguably dwarf Theon's (Tyrion had, in my opinion, fewer mitigating circumstances). Yet Tyrion never gets the vicious condemnation that Theon does - people feel the need to start threads about why people feel sorry for Theon, yet anyone who expresses fondness for Tyrion is regarded as entirely normal.

*If we do consider this to be it, rather than, say, his murder of Tywin

That was standard procedure, Robert or Ned did anything out of the norm. Theon had several choices when he was taken hostage, he could spend the rest of his life pouting about it. Or he could've taken advantage of the opportunities he had and realize he was still better off then 99.9999% of people living in Westoros. He choice to bury his head and not befriend Jon or Rob or anyone better. Taking hostages was normal, everyone accepted it and if Theon wasn't so narcissistic he could've made many deep and lasting friendships. But he failed in that too because like almost all of the Greyjoy's he was more interested in ancient glories then today's realities.

If forcibly taking ten year old boys away and holding them hostage is OK because it's normal, then committing murder in the name of political expediency is OK too - because it is also certainly normal in Westeros. Normality doesn't necessarily imply that it's OK.

It was most definitely Balon's how should've realize his insignificant islands couldn't withstand the entire force of the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.

So Theon is to suffer for Balon's faults?

He could've stood up to his father and explained exactly why his father was the stupidest man in Westoros. Attacking the weakest of the kings only ensured that the North and the Greyjoy's would lose the war. His father was so bound up in ancient glories he couldn't see that anything but a temporary alliance with the North and the Riverlands was the only true path to victory. A future leader should've given Balon better console told him to think in the long term and pull his head out of his ass. Robb's plan was the best for both kingdoms. An attack on Lannisport would've force the Lannisters to put resources to their homeland when it was needed in the south. An attack on the North destroyed Robb's authority and give the Lannister's complete victory. It's a poor leader that sends his troops to their certain deaths for no better reason then wounded pride.

Theon did accuse his father of foolishness in terms of taking the crown. Balon had, however, settled on his choice, and to push things further by refusing to cooperate would, you know, have resulted in Theon's imprisonment or execution for treason and betraying his family.

Failing that he could've worn Rob what was going on. Because if Theon thought of more then himself, which he doesn't, he would've realized the entire attack was a farce. If he had bothered to have gotten to know Robb and the Starks better he would've know he would've been well rewarded for his switching sides and would've gotten the lordship he craved.

Which, had he been caught, would have resulted in Theon's execution at the hands of his own family. God forbid that someone choose blood loyalty over the House that held them hostage for half their life.

Because he was too wrapped up in the myths he created for himself to listen to anyone else. Asha all buy got on her hands and knees to take that wise course, but he was to petty and jealous to see past his own nose.

Had Asha been in Theon's place, she'd have torched Winterfell and taken Bran and Rickon as hostages back to Pyke. Would a Theon who did that be any more loved by the readers than the Theon who stupidly stayed and tried to hold Winterfell? Somehow I doubt it.

[Rinso]

It took me about 3 re-reads of the books for me to feel slightly sorry for him, but I still just plain don't like him. Personally, I don't go through an objective and qualitative analysis of who's done worse things relative to who when I read the books to decide who I like and don't like. It's an emotional reaction. Plain and simple, I think he's a jerk and a dickwad and treats women like shit, and I've seen no redeeming qualities in him to overcome my dislike.

Yet.

It could happen. I'm all for redemption arcs.

And with that you gave the best reasons for your dislike of Theon. He is a misogynist jerk and that's it. Plain and simple. Every other reason (betraying the Starks, the miller's kids etc.) is debatable at best as I think I have shown (and probably will continue to show). But the guy is an unpleasant jerk. I agree with you and your opinion of him.

But...

For everyone whose best defense of Theon is that other characters have done worse but or like more, I'd like to repeat my claim that's a red herring. If your main argument is that X has done worse, therefore I have to also like Y, you already lost the discussion and I really have nothing more to say to you because that entire line of reasoning is irrelevant.

You don't have to like him. But if you like a character who has done something bad while at the same time hold pretty much the same bad deed against a character that you dislike, well, it is a bit hypocritical. And it is what happens with Theon. Nobody has to like him (I don't), I just disagree with some of the reasons for the dislike.

That was standard procedure, Robert or Ned did anything out of the norm. Theon had several choices when he was taken hostage, he could spend the rest of his life pouting about it. Or he could've taken advantage of the opportunities he had and realize he was still better off then 99.9999% of people living in Westoros. He choice to bury his head and not befriend Jon or Rob or anyone better. Taking hostages was normal, everyone accepted it and if Theon wasn't so narcissistic he could've made many deep and lasting friendships. But he failed in that too because like almost all of the Greyjoy's he was more interested in ancient glories then today's realities.

So, because taking hostages is a standard procedure, that makes it okay? I bet that this is a really comforting thought for a kid that is being shipped away from his home and family to spend the rest of his life as a pawn in a game of bluffing. Btw, the best friendships come from children who were raised together like wards (think Ned and Robert), not in captivity. And Theon befriended Robb. Like I said, Theon lived good, but that was only as long as his father kept quiet.

He could've stood up to his father and explained exactly why his father was the stupidest man in Westoros. Attacking the weakest of the kings only ensured that the North and the Greyjoy's would lose the war. His father was so bound up in ancient glories he couldn't see that anything but a temporary alliance with the North and the Riverlands was the only true path to victory. A future leader should've given Balon better console told him to think in the long term and pull his head out of his ass. Robb's plan was the best for both kingdoms. An attack on Lannisport would've force the Lannisters to put resources to their homeland when it was needed in the south. An attack on the North destroyed Robb's authority and give the Lannister's complete victory. It's a poor leader that sends his troops to their certain deaths for no better reason then wounded pride.

Robb's plan was good, but Theon didn't have the authority to fulfill it. All he could have done was to deliver Robb's proposal to Balon. And he did that. From that point on, the decision was completely out of Theon's hands. If he had to choose, he would have chosen to attack Lannisport, not Winterfell, because he and Robb created that plan together, IIRC. And he did accuse his father of stupidity, but Balon didn't want to listen.

Failing that he could've worn Rob what was going on. Because if Theon thought of more then himself, which he doesn't, he would've realized the entire attack was a farce. If he had bothered to have gotten to know Robb and the Starks better he would've know he would've been well rewarded for his switching sides and would've gotten the lordship he craved.

And how he could have warned Robb? Perhaps ring his cell? Theon was sent to the Iron Islands with the intent of creating an alliance between the Starks and the Greyjoys. It wasn't up until he went there and talked to his family, that he understood that Balon will attack the North no matter what. Do you seriously believe that someone would have let him go back to the Riverlands after that? He didn't have much choice on the matter.

Because he was too wrapped up in the myths he created for himself to listen to anyone else. Asha all buy got on her hands and knees to take that wise course, but he was to petty and jealous to see past his own nose.

No arguing there.