Why do people feel sorry for Theon Greyjoy?

[Dreadwolf]

He does the most horrible things (threatening Beth Cassell, putting children's heads on spikes on the wall, etc.) and then whines about how they made him do it. And he gets angry/defensive when Asha mocked him for it.

IIRC even the stone cold and merciless Ironborn hinted that his actions in Winterfell are pointless.

So I can accept that he owes loyalty to his kin rather than to his warders. (Although it was accomplished in a completely dishonarable manner. I've start to think that as if many readers adopted the viewpoint that 'honor' is kind of dirty word BTW).

Anyway loyalty to his kin is one think. Thoughtless executions to the sole benefit of of someone's ill and megalomaniac ambitions. That's quite another story.

As regards to Asha and her 'fine taste' mockery - IMHO It was not the best think to do in that case. Nether I think it rise her in the esteem of the people.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Reason 2 is more substantial. Or it would have been if it wasn't a case of an awful double standart. So Theon is horrible, because he killed two children and we should hate him for it. Fine. But do we hate Sandor Clegane, who butchered a child and later laughed about it? Or do we hate Jaime Lannister, who threw a kid from a tower, so nobody would find out that he was fucking his sister? Funny thing is, those two (Sandor and Jaime) are among the most beloved characters in the books. Theon isn't. Go figure.

Some other "loved" characters:

Tyrion has a man turned into stew for the crime of, well, making a satirical song.

Arya kills a stablehand (and others) and feels absolutely no remorse.

Robb's rebellion leads to the deaths of thousands of innocent people.

Dany cheerfully engages in what in real life would be regarded as brutal war-crimes.

And characters, who, while not loved, are generally regarded more favourably than Theon:

Robert abuses and (in modern terms) rapes Cersei for years on end.

Littlefinger murders Lysa Arryn (and is generally cheered for it), and stirs up a horrific War for his own personal gain.

[Horza]

Theon is a good character, he's easy to empathise with, he does bad things. Like every other character in the book.

(ok not Gregor, Biter, Raff etc)

[Tyrion Stark]

All I have to say that is that those of you who dislike theon have never really been in situation where you feel like an outsider no matter where you are. Theon is neither ironborn nor a northman. He's nothing. Him holding on to his lofty image of his self worth is the only way he can think of keeping himself happy. Try it. He's like a mixed kid who has racist families. He is never accepted by either side due to no fault of his own. Yes he makes stupid decisions but when all you want is to know that someone is proud of you and loves you unconditionally like a parent should. You are bound do something stupid and desperate. Can you imagine coming home after ten years and too be treat like shit for no good reason. Can you imagine living with people who raise you but you get no warmth from. Everyone knows Ned Stark is a cold man. Even Catelyn said it. Yes he eventually opens up to her but why would he open up to Theon when all he sees is the friends he lost storminig pyke. Ask yourself does confidence come from deeds or from yourself. All you theon haters put yourself in a his shoes. How many of us at the age of 20 could say that we weren't arrogant males. He doesn't mistreat the captain's daughter. She came willingly. If you ever gone abroad for a period of time or traveled for a period of time. you find companionship those around you. Doesn't mean you are obligated to continue it afterwards. I'm rambling i Know but try a little empathy and sympathy before you say he's a horrible person.

[Dreadwolf]

Some other "loved" characters:

Tyrion has a man turned into stew for the crime of, well, making a satirical song.

Arya kills a stablehand (and others) and feels absolutely no remorse.

Robb's rebellion leads to the deaths of thousands of innocent people.

Dany cheerfully engages in what in real life would be regarded as brutal war-crimes.

And characters, who, while not loved, are generally regarded more favourably than Theon:

Robert abuses and (in modern terms) rapes Cersei for years on end.

Littlefinger murders Lysa Arryn (and is generally cheered for it), and stirs up a horrific War for his own personal gain.

I believe every single example may be explained (self-defence, momenatry affection and the likes.)and justified or judged (guilty or not) accordingly.

And Every single charachter whose head we had the pleasure to enter in, demonstrated flaws and weakness at a certain point(s). Incidently or permanently they did some unpleasant and 'bad'/ evil things.

Almost all of them (if not all but Theon) can say in their defence (often with 'tragical' & grotesque attitude):

"The thinGs I do for love..."

Thinking twice I am totaly wrong because In so far poor fellow Theon Greyjoy can also try:

" The thinGs I do for love"

Yes Theon crazy loves Theon...

Edit: (I needed to correct some syntax errs)

[gr8hucker]

In answer to the topic of this post, I wanted to give it a lot of thought, and I came to this. . .

People feel sorry for Theon Greyjoy because people should feel sorry for Theon Greyjoy. Think about it. He was what? 4, 5 years old when he was taken from his mother and father to be hostage to a strange land by people who just defeated his father. He was kidnapped by people who gave no regard to what his needs were, had no understanding of the culture he would one day rule, or at the barest minimum, didn't care. Is Ned a worthy teacher, and caring father figure, without a doubt, but he made grave mistakes with Theon that ultimately led to the demise of Winterfell.

Why was Theon taken in the first place? I explicit reason is to keep Balon from making another foray into kingship, but the implicit reason was that King Robert needed a future Lord of the Iron Islands who would reflect his desires (namely a realm where he could whore and war at will, okay maybe just whore :smoking: ) and serve him ably, and who better to create a loyal and honorable heir to the Iron Islands than Ned Stark. But what both Robert and Ned failed to realize was that the Iron Islands are as culturally different from the rest of the 7 kingdoms as Dorne, and therefore, they were raising an heir that couldn't be accepted by the people of the Iron Islands.

Am I attempting to justify Theon's treachery? Of course not, but he is what he is, and what he is was greatly influenced by the unfortunate choices of others. Can people overcome the awful stuff that happens to them? Sure, but usually not when they are 19 and thrown into immoral situations.

[Errant Bard]

He was what? 4, 5 years old when he was taken from his mother and father to be hostage to a strange land by people who just defeated his father.

nitpicking, but he was 10

[kuroishi]

It seems to me that yes, people can feel sorry for Theon because he's had hard times in his life, but most of us just don't find it in us to feel sorry for him because we didn't really care for him in the first place.

As for the "he didn't betray the Starks because he was never one of them" argument, well, in my views he at least betrayed Robb who trusted him as a comrade at arms and was the closest thing he had to a friend...

Maybe he could have had a dilemma between his duty to his friend and his duty to his family (a sort of giri and ninjo thing), but if I remember correctly, it's not the kind of thoughts he had when he decided to take Winterfell.

[Dreadwolf]

@Tyrion Stark & gr8hucker

Fully aware that it will be re-iteration and rather boring I will make it again:

IIRC Theon was taken hostage at 10.

If truth be told the good king Robbert treated gently the rebels for he (Ned's thoughts) was always ready to forgive his brave opponent. Well Raeghar doesn't count there). It would be much more convinient to depose and behead the Rebel, to completely destroy his kin and immediatelly appoint any one from the local lords who would agree to be Roose Bolton in the Iron Island or even the King could undertake more dramatic actions.

Theon have the rare luck to be a hostage of one of the most capable and just Lords in the Realms + he was actually treated in a very acceptable manner. Lord Eddard was never unjust or unfair to him. He never deprive him from the high lord's keep confort and never abused him a bit (as far as we know or can guess).

Like I mentioned Theon was of the exact age to make him a perfect janissary - which involves a process of the child turning into jealot for the cause of his motherland oppressors.

Can you imagine coming home after ten years and too be treat like shit for no good reason.

No one is a prophet in his own country as they say.

For me it does matter also that he was coming home mockingly (or feeling pity if you prefer) anticipating recognition from his father and all the rest of the Ironborns. He sincerely believed that he did that deed in what his father had failed many years ago. The slap in the face in return was harsh and made him the laughing stock of everyone. That was sad and bad. Theon being entirely self oriented guy (IMHO) decided to prove his value and accomplished spectacular series of atrocity. Until I see him realizing that the world is a specific place where other peoples lives has had also unique value and must be respected accordingly I will not find warm feelings for him.

[fitheach]

I kinda skipped over the thread, so sorry if I'm repeating someone else's points, but...

I, personally, don't feel sorry for Theon, but on the other hand, I definately don't hate him either. The guy is a dick, but so what? Most of the characters in the books are.

In my observation, basically, Theon is hated by the fans for two reasons.

1. betraying the Starks.

2. killing those miller's kids to cover up for the mess with Bran and Rickon.

Reason 1 is ridiculous, in my opinion, because he never owed anything to the Starks. Ned Stark didn't raise him in Winterfell because of his good and noble heart, it was because he needed a prisoner to secure Balon's obedience. Sure, Theon wasn't treated badly, but that doesn't make him a Stark servant. If Theon owed loyalty to anyone, it was to the Greyjoys, not to the Starks.

Reason 2 is more substantial. Or it would have been if it wasn't a case of an awful double standart. So Theon is horrible, because he killed two children and we should hate him for it. Fine. But do we hate Sandor Clegane, who butchered a child and later laughed about it? Or do we hate Jaime Lannister, who threw a kid from a tower, so nobody would find out that he was fucking his sister? Funny thing is, those two (Sandor and Jaime) are among the most beloved characters in the books. Theon isn't. Go figure.

Anyway, like I said, I don't feel sorry for Theon. He probably is having one nightmare of a time in the Dreadfort, but he has nobody to blame, but himself. His plan to capture Winterfell was brilliant - it wasn't worse than Robb's amazing tactical prowess during the war, IMO - but the decision to keep the castle was pure idiocy. I generally don't feel bad for fools and that's why I don't feel sorry for Theon (or the Starks, for that matter).

Nobody likes Theon because he's a whiner.

Instead of owning up to the fact that he's a shit, as Sandor and Jamie and many other beloved/murderous characters own up, Theon is always blaming his horrible actions on everyone else and how bad his life is... "Waaaaaaa, my life is baaaaad and I'm a political ward of the Starks who treated me horribly (they did not), and I should be ruleing my people not _____ (why does he think he has the right to rule other than birthright?), and why doesn't she liiiiike meeeeeee (because he's a whiner and a shit!)? Waaaaaaaa."

He's a whiner, nobody likes a whiner....

I think that's why some readers don't like Cersei. She's a bit of a nutty whiner too, and not fun nutty.

It doesn't mean that what the other characters do is alright, just that they do it in style and know who and what they are.

All I have to say that is that those of you who dislike theon have never really been in situation where you feel like an outsider no matter where you are.

I went to 22 schools before graduating high school, so yeah I know what it feels like. The Theon character is a whiner, plain and simple.

[gr8hucker]

"Theon have the rare luck to be a hostage of one of the most capable and just Lords in the Realms + he was actually treated in a very acceptable manner. Lord Eddard was never unjust or unfair to him. He never deprive him from the high lord's keep confort and never abused him a bit (as far as we know or can guess)."

Rare luck to be a hostage? That's an interesting notion. Okay, Theon was 10, I for some reason, subtracted back to the Sack of King's Landing, but that doesn't change my point, which is that implicit in the taking of a hostage, who will be heir, is a desire to solidify future holdings. Also that given what the people of the Iron Islands are (reavers), the honorable Lord Eddard and good King Robert, were unjust and unfair to Theon. Removing a boy from his home and and hostaging him in a land so unlike his own, is neither just nor fair, to the boy. Was it fair and just to Balon? Sure. But the perception that Theon assimillated to the ways of the Starks made him an outcast in a cruel and inhospitable place like the Iron Islands, thereby denying him his "rightful" seat as Lord of the Iron Islands.

Was he whiny and self important while with his father, or did Eddard's treatment make him that way? I assume the latter, because if he was raised with his people, the likelihood is any whining and undeserved sense of ego would be squashed by cruel reality.

Again, I don't particularly like Theon, and am not meaning to justify his taking of Winterfell, which was colossally stupid, but it's easy to see why someone in the position he was put in would overreach.

[Spring Bass]

I suppose you could say that Theon never really rises above the limitations he's had thrown at him, in the way that Jon Snow does with his bastard-ness. He was a ward of the Starks, but Robb treated him like a brother, and Theon probably could have tied himself to Robb and maybe gained minor lord status in the North had he stuck with him (the Starks are big on loyalty and honor, if you didn't notice). Or for that matter, he could have gone to the Wall, and made something of himself there, like he seriously considered when Maester Luwin brought it up after he took Winterfell with the Iron Men.

[Rinso]

Frankly speaking I can’t understand your problem with double standards. In my opinion it’s one of the most specific traits of a human in particular and of the human race as a whole.

I don't know, it irritates me a bit. Just a bit, and when it's applied to such a fictional story.

Now, I beg to differ from your opinion for many ‘reasons’. I actually am of an opinion you more or less affect the free-thinker (forgive me if I am wrong).

Sorry, didn't get what you mean exactly. Who am I affecting and how?

See, my problem here is not that fans don't like Theon. I'm not crazy about him either. My problem is with their reasoning for their dislike.

It’s highly arguable at least. It has been done many times on these boards.

If not for other reason we even don’t know the exact facts. Sandor most probably was told that the ‘child’ – BTW how old Micah was? - attacked the prince dangerously and hit him badly.

Micah was a kid, IIRC. I don't know exactly how old he was, but I don't think that he was much older than Arya. Perhaps around Sansa's age, at most?

As for the other thing, it doesn't matter what they told Sandor about Micah. He did not do it because they told him that Mycah was bad, he did because they told him to kill him. Just like a dog ;)

I presume you are stressing the attention of the fact Sandor took the task and performed it with pleasure.

My double standards at the point are allowing me to assume that Sandor’s nervous laugh at this instance is rather usual reaction of a soldier sent to accomplish a murderous task. He did what he was ordered, he felt sorry and why not shame. He pretended in the face of Eddard that he didn’t give a s**t for the poor boy – just to prevent other soldiers mockery for his being weak. It’s not justifying reason enough to me however and that is why I cannot give him my forgiveness of his action at that particular case. (As if someone’s bothering about my personal remission).

In a way it’s valid regarding Jaime/ Bran incident.

You are kinda cheerfully twisting my arguments around. Fine, joke about it, since you see that I'm right :D

No. My double standards there grant me the opportunity to call it “crocodile’s tearsâ€. Sorry for constant re-iterations from my side. Anyway having nightmares is slightly beyond my understanding of conscious remorse. Actually IMO Theon never hesitated a bit what to do while he was staying awake.

By the way, I am curious, what would you have done in Theon's place in that very situation? He had trapped himself in Winterfell and didn't get any help from the other Ironborn in the North. He didn't have a lot of men and was in serious danger of getting to deal with a riot at Winterfell. Not to mention, that the other lords of the North were gathering to fight him. So what would you have done in this situation? What would you choose? To look cruel or to look stupid? Theon chose to look cruel. He didn't really wanted to kill the miller's kids, but the way he saw it, he didn't have any choice.

Now, before you say that you probably would be smart enough not to try to hold Winterfell, I say that I agree. Theon's decision to settle there was moronic at the least. No arguing there. He turned an awesome victory into an embarrassing defeat and has nobody to blame but himself. But that's not the point. He was in a pretty shitty situation and he did the only thing (according to him, of course) that would have ensured his survival. It was literally a matter of life and death. Would you have chosen your death instead of the kids'?

I shall admit that you have skillfully engaged me in defending my hatred towards Theon by means of various juxtapositions. By this reason I can be classified as a fallen paladin (or angel) at least for the purposes of that thread. And in line of the above I would like to make one more comparison.

But that's the problem! I don't think that you need to justify your hatred towards Theon.

Theon – at any single convenience misused ladies. And yes this is one of the important reasons I consider him jerk.

Sandor was in a good position to take his advantage over Sansa once and did not avail of it. (Don’t tell me he later on He felt sorry about that – IMO he was just playing a theatrical role to make Arya give him quick and painless death – My doublestandards I guess).

Oh, yeah, Theon is a total misogynist asshole. You won't see me arguing about that. But... Sandor is not perfect either. Sure, he saved Sansa from a horrible fate and maybe even death at the riot at King's Landing and he even has tried to protect her as much as he can from Joffrey's cruelty. But he also was very rude to her and mostly scared her. Not every action towards her was noble. It wasn't very nice of him to say how her father's legs twitched when they cut his head off or to press a knife to her throat even if he didn't actually mean to harm her with it. So, he's not such a gentle soul with the ladies himself.

[Alexia]

Oh, yeah, Theon is a total misogynist asshole. You won't see me arguing about that. But... Sandor is not perfect either. Sure, he saved Sansa from a horrible fate and maybe even death at the riot at King's Landing and he even has tried to protect her as much as he can from Joffrey's cruelty. But he also was very rude to her and mostly scared her. Not every action towards her was noble. It wasn't very nice of him to say how her father's legs twitched when they cut his head off or to press a knife to her throat even if he didn't actually mean to harm her with it. So, he's not such a gentle soul with the ladies himself.

I just gotta say something here. ;) You can find something nice to say about Sandor with women - even though he wasn't the most chivalrous of characters. Can you find something nice to say about Theon and women?

[Knight of the Teabags]

Can you find something nice to say about Theon and women?

Oh I think we can cast that net far broader and still catch nothing! When did Theon ever inconvenience himself to help anyone but himself?

Throughout the series it has always been the small acts of human kindness expecting little personal gain against all the cruelty of the world that have impressed me most. Eddard being prepared to hear the last words of those he's condemned to death. Drogo being gentle to Dany on their wedding night when he was within his culture's rights to rape her. Robb befriending Jon and Theon almost definitely against his mother's will. Jon protecting Sam from Aliser Thorne. Dany stopping the rape of the lamb women. The Hound defying Joffrey's orders to beat Sansa. Arya freeing Jagen, Rorge and Biter. Sansa intervening to save Dontos from Joffrey. Davos defying Stannis to get Edric Storm away from Mel's fires. Sam freeing Gilly from Crasters. Catelyn taking Brienne into her service when no else would. Jaime going into the Bear pit for Brienne. Asha not taking her hostage, Lady Glover's youngest child to the Iron Islands out of concern for its health.

The list goes on, but Theon is never doing anything in anyway so selfless. Even when he shoots the Wilding holding Bran at knifepoint he is more interested in self-glorification than Bran's safety; indeed as Robb points out Theon arguably puts Bran in more danger. A single act of kindness to another human being however small would have made a lot of difference to people's peceptions of Theon.

[Watcher]

The whole 'double standard" arguement is a red herring. Many people on this board has stated that they can never forgive Jamie or the Hound. Also it do nothing to answer the original question of why do people feel sorry for a narcissistic brat who feels the world owes him everything simply because he's a Greyjoy?

[Rinso]

Eh, I'm sure that there are people who can't forgive Jaime or Sandor, but generally, you can't deny that they get away with far less scorn. Sure, they are much more likeable characters, but I don't really believe that they are far better people.

As for the other thing... A lot of characters in these series feel that the world owes them everything simply because they are a Lannister, or a Targaryen, or a Baratheon, or a Tyrell... the list goes on.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Oh I think we can cast that net far broader and still catch nothing! When did Theon ever inconvenience himself to help anyone but himself?

Easy. Rescuing Bran from the Wildings.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I believe every single example may be explained (self-defence, momenatry affection and the likes.)and justified or judged (guilty or not) accordingly.

How is Tyrion having a man turned into stew any different morally from Theon having the miller's boys murdered (except that in Tyrion's case, it was entirely his own idea, he realised he had other options at the time, and he never felt any guilt whatsoever afterwards?).

If we're going to let everyone else off (in particular Arya, who IIRC has committed more non-battle murders than Theon has) on the grounds of "oh, they saw it as necessary", it should be pointed out that Theon (being manipulated by Ramsay) saw his murders as necessary.

And Every single charachter whose head we had the pleasure to enter in, demonstrated flaws and weakness at a certain point(s). Incidently or permanently they did some unpleasant and 'bad'/ evil things.

Almost all of them (if not all but Theon) can say in their defence (often with 'tragical' & grotesque attitude):

"The thinGs I do for love..."

Thinking twice I am totaly wrong because In so far poor fellow Theon Greyjoy can also try:

" The thinGs I do for love"

Yes Theon crazy loves Theon...

Edit: (I needed to correct some syntax errs)

Theon's major flaw is that, being a perpetual outsider, he is obsessed with what other people think of him. In Theon's case it would be "The things I do so that people will accept me."

[The Marquis de Leech]

The list goes on, but Theon is never doing anything in anyway so selfless. Even when he shoots the Wilding holding Bran at knifepoint he is more interested in self-glorification than Bran's safety; indeed as Robb points out Theon arguably puts Bran in more danger.

If Theon hadn't turned up, what, precisely, was Robb going to do? Theon's shot was the only way out of a mess Robb created by letting Bran out of his sight.

As for the self-glorification argument, using your logic Theon is damned-if-he-does, damned-if-he-doesn't. If he does something good, it's for self-glorification, if he doesn't do something good, well, that just shows he's a bad guy, doesn't it? Theon also prohibited his men committing rape after the fall of Winterfell - are you going to argue that that was just so he could make himself look good?